The Apostle Paul vs Popular Eschatalogical Doctrines/Positions

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
7,371
2,301
43
Helena
✟203,984.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
A: Paul vs the doctrine of imminence and pretribulationism
2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
These events are tied together, which will also be backed up on another popular doctrine next
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
That is don't believe people who try to tell you that the rapture and second coming are imminent, refuting the doctrine of imminence.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Here he gives the conditions that prevent the rapture and second coming from being immient. It does however BECOME imminent once these events have happened.
Now I know people will #1. Try to claim that apostasia means physical departure but that is a total non starter unless you want to declare that God does not preserve His word and lets mankind corrupt it making every modern English translation false. If we can't put faith in the Word of God? What can we base our faith on. Extremely dangerous position to take. #2, people will say that the restrainer mentioned in verses 6 and 7 is the Church/Holy Spirit, so the rapture has to take place first.
But that makes no sense because Paul just gave 2 conditions that have to happen before the rapture and second coming happen.

B: Paul vs the doctrine of a separate Rapture and second coming.
I've already shown it in 2 Thessalonians 2 but I'll also back it up with 1 Thessalonians 4, the most commonly cited rapture passage.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The first event in the rapture, is the second coming of Christ. You do not have a resurrection, or rapture, before Jesus descends from heaven. No pretribulation poof like you see in the movies.

C: Paul vs preterism, at least those who claimed that the resurrection (of all the saints) happened at the Cross, a position also held by many amillennials.
2 Timothy 2
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

D: Paul vs amillennialism in general, in particular the idea that Satan was bound for the thousand years starting at the cross, or that Satan and his angels being thrown down in Revelation 12, was something that happened at the cross.
Ephesians 6
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
If an enemy is bound so that he can deceive the nations no more, why do we have to stand guard against him?
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
In other translations this is "in heavenly places". If Satan's angels have already been cast out by Paul's time writing this, who then are these rulers of darkness and spiritual wickedness and powers and principalities in heavenly places?

Next up.. 2 Corinthians 4
1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
If Satan is bound and unable to deceive the nations at the time that Paul is writing this.. how is Satan blinding the lost, why is he considered the god of this world? How is Satan preventing the gospel from reaching these people, which by amillennial doctrine, Satan being bound means that Satan can't prevent the spread of the gospel. Yet clearly Paul is teaching that he can blind people and make them unreceptive to the gospel, still, after Jesus resurrected.

Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
This is, as of Paul's day, after the cross, a wicked spiritual power that is still at work (and even to our day)

E: Paul vs Postmillennialism, at least the idea that Jesus will return after a millennium of the world getting gradually better and more righteous as time went on.
2 Timothy 3
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
Paul teaches the world will get worse, not slowly better, it'll grow in unrighteousness, not righteousness.

Hard to say that Paul was premillennial, as the 1000 year duration was not something revealed to Paul but John, but he does not seem to agree with foundational beliefs that prop up post or amillennialism. He also taught against doctrines that prop up pretribulationism.

On the flip side, there's not a lot you can say where Paul might be teaching against premillennialism, and either pre-wrath or post-trib, and Paul was certainly futurist from his day, so you can at least not claim that it all happened at the cross. People who profess AD70 can't be refuted by Paul alone, at least, since Paul died before AD70, so it would still be future for Paul.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: chad kincham

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟182,548.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
A: Paul vs the doctrine of imminence and pretribulationism
2 Thessalonians 2

These events are tied together, which will also be backed up on another popular doctrine next

That is don't believe people who try to tell you that the rapture and second coming are imminent, refuting the doctrine of imminence.

Here he gives the conditions that prevent the rapture and second coming from being immient. It does however BECOME imminent once these events have happened.
Now I know people will #1. Try to claim that apostasia means physical departure but that is a total non starter unless you want to declare that God does not preserve His word and lets mankind corrupt it making every modern English translation false. If we can't put faith in the Word of God? What can we base our faith on. Extremely dangerous position to take. #2, people will say that the restrainer mentioned in verses 6 and 7 is the Church/Holy Spirit, so the rapture has to take place first.
But that makes no sense because Paul just gave 2 conditions that have to happen before the rapture and second coming happen.

B: Paul vs the doctrine of a separate Rapture and second coming.
I've already shown it in 2 Thessalonians 2 but I'll also back it up with 1 Thessalonians 4, the most commonly cited rapture passage.

The first event in the rapture, is the second coming of Christ. You do not have a resurrection, or rapture, before Jesus descends from heaven. No pretribulation poof like you see in the movies.

C: Paul vs preterism, at least those who claimed that the resurrection (of all the saints) happened at the Cross, a position also held by many amillennials.
2 Timothy 2


D: Paul vs amillennialism in general, in particular the idea that Satan was bound for the thousand years starting at the cross, or that Satan and his angels being thrown down in Revelation 12, was something that happened at the cross.
Ephesians 6

If an enemy is bound so that he can deceive the nations no more, why do we have to stand guard against him?

In other translations this is "in heavenly places". If Satan's angels have already been cast out by Paul's time writing this, who then are these rulers of darkness and spiritual wickedness and powers and principalities in heavenly places?

Next up.. 2 Corinthians 4

If Satan is bound and unable to deceive the nations at the time that Paul is writing this.. how is Satan blinding the lost, why is he considered the god of this world? How is Satan preventing the gospel from reaching these people, which by amillennial doctrine, Satan being bound means that Satan can't prevent the spread of the gospel. Yet clearly Paul is teaching that he can blind people and make them unreceptive to the gospel, still, after Jesus resurrected.

Ephesians 2

This is, as of Paul's day, after the cross, a wicked spiritual power that is still at work (and even to our day)

E: Paul vs Postmillennialism, at least the idea that Jesus will return after a millennium of the world getting gradually better and more righteous as time went on.
2 Timothy 3

Paul teaches the world will get worse, not slowly better, it'll grow in unrighteousness, not righteousness.

Hard to say that Paul was premillennial, as the 1000 year duration was not something revealed to Paul but John, but he does not seem to agree with foundational beliefs that prop up post or amillennialism. He also taught against doctrines that prop up pretribulationism.

On the flip side, there's not a lot you can say where Paul might be teaching against premillennialism, and either pre-wrath or post-trib, and Paul was certainly futurist from his day, so you can at least not claim that it all happened at the cross. People who profess AD70 can't be refuted by Paul alone, at least, since Paul died before AD70, so it would still be future for Paul.
I agree with some of the things you say and disagree with others.

With regard to your D:

I do not believe either that Satan was bound at the cross, but he was most certainly utterly defeated by the death and resurrection of Christ, and hence was cast out from before the throne of the Great Judge where until then, he was able to accuse the brethren, and was cast down to the realm of the earth:

John 12:31-32
"Now is the judgement of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself."

Revelation 12:9-11
"And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven,

Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death."

Revelation 12 & 13 span the beginning of the church age to the close of it. Revelation 12:17 is explaining the satanic war against the church, so is Revelation 13, because after Satan gives the beast his seat, power & great authority, the same beast will make war against the saints and overcome them (Revelation 13:7).

We will understand this if we understand the type in the flood:

120 years before the flood, God judged the world, and the world was found guilty:

Genesis 6:5-7
"And the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD repented that He had made man on the earth, and He was angry to His heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created, from the face of the earth, both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air. For I repent that I have made them."

Genesis 6:13-14a
"And God said to Noah, The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them. And, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make an ark of Cyprus timbers. You shall make rooms in the ark..."

Genesis 6:3
"And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, in his erring; he is flesh. Yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years."

The world, in the days of Noah, was not judged on the day the floods came. The flood was just the carrying out of the decreed sentence which had already been passed when the world was judged 120 years earlier. God had already judged the world, and the world had already been found guilty. The sentence had been decreed, but not carried out yet. There was still a chance to get into the ark, and many were no doubt called into the ark, but few (8 souls) were chosen.

The ark is a type of Christ:

John 12:31-32
"Now is the judgement of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself."

Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death."

John 3:17-18
"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God."

Just as the floods came upon the ark, but the ark was lifted up (and out of the destruction) while those in the ark were saved (but only those in the ark), so Christ bore the judgement of the world, was lifted up from the earth, and He is our "Ark", the Ark of those who are IN HIM through faith in Him.

So if we believe the words of Jesus in John 3:17-18, then we will understand that just as the generations that lived during the final 120 years before the flood came, we are living in the last days, because God’s judgement has already come, but the decreed sentence is yet to be carried out. Those who are not in the ark will perish.

This is why the entire Age is called "the last days":

Hebrews 1:1-3 "God, who at many times and in many ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds, who being the shining splendor of His glory, and the express image of His essence, and upholding all things by the word of His power, having made purification of our sins, He sat down on the right of the Majesty on high."

Revelation chapters 12 & 13 are telling us about the beginning and the end of the Age, @Jamdoc and spans the entire Age.

Satan is the prince of the power of the air and there are forces of darkness in the heavenly places which we wrestle against because this is the realm of the earth, which includes the spiritual realm we cannot see which is all around the earth and the physical universe ("the heavenly places") . The heavens and the heavenly places can refer to different things in scripture, depending on the context in which the phrase is used. It's not in God's heaven.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
7,371
2,301
43
Helena
✟203,984.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
How does Matt 24 fit?

Well I'm just talking about Paul but I find that Paul gets some of his doctrines from Matthew 24, which had been written during Paul's life. Matthew 24 and the letters to the Thessalonians agree with each other, both teaching the abomination of desolation coming before the gathering of the elect. Matthew 24:30-31 lines up with 1 Thessalonians 4:16, with a few added details such as the resurrection happening at this time.
 
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
7,371
2,301
43
Helena
✟203,984.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
I agree with some of the things you say and disagree with others.

John 12:31-32
"Now is the judgement of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself."

Revelation 12:9-11
"And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven,

Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death."

Revelation 12 & 13 span the beginning of the church age to the close of it. Revelation 12:17 is explaining the satanic war against the church, so is Revelation 13, because after Satan gives the beast his seat, power & great authority, the same beast will make war against the saints and overcome them (Revelation 13:7).

We will understand this if we understand the type in the flood:

120 years before the flood, God judged the world, and the world was found guilty:

Genesis 6:5-7
"And the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD repented that He had made man on the earth, and He was angry to His heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created, from the face of the earth, both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air. For I repent that I have made them."

Genesis 6:13-14a
"And God said to Noah, The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them. And, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make an ark of Cyprus timbers. You shall make rooms in the ark..."

Genesis 6:3
"And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, in his erring; he is flesh. Yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years."

The world, in the days of Noah, was not judged on the day the floods came. The flood was just the carrying out of the decreed sentence which had already been passed when the world was judged 120 years earlier. God had already judged the world, and the world had already been found guilty. The sentence had been decreed, but not carried out yet. There was still a chance to get into the ark, and many were no doubt called into the ark, but few (8 souls) were chosen.

The ark is a type of Christ:

John 12:31-32
"Now is the judgement of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself."

Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death."

John 3:17-18
"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God."

Just as the floods came upon the ark, but the ark was lifted up (and out of the destruction) while those in the ark were saved (but only those in the ark), so Christ bore the judgement of the world, was lifted up from the earth, and He is our "Ark", the Ark of those who are IN HIM through faith in Him.

So if we believe the words of Jesus in John 3:17-18, then we will understand that just as the generations that lived during the final 120 years before the flood came, we are living in the last days, because God’s judgement has already come, but the decreed sentence is yet to be carried out. Those who are not in the ark will perish.

This is why the entire Age is called "the last days":

Hebrews 1:1-3 "God, who at many times and in many ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds, who being the shining splendor of His glory, and the express image of His essence, and upholding all things by the word of His power, having made purification of our sins, He sat down on the right of the Majesty on high."

Revelation chapters 12 & 13 are telling us about the beginning and the end of the Age.

The topic is Paul vs these doctrines.
You're using people and books other than Paul.
So really we're only referring to the Eschatology that the Apostle Paul taught.
Now, it should agree with Eschatology from other books, but the crux of that is going to be interpretation.. if Paul doesn't seem to be agreeing with other portions of scripture.. then because scripture does not lie, your interpretation of that scripture is faulty.
Peter also teaches a Satan out and about on the prowl, rather than a Satan bound and unable to prevent the spread of the Gospel.
 
Upvote 0

fixn_junk

Active Member
Jan 24, 2022
25
8
Somewhere
✟903.00
Country
Tajikistan
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
So you want to handle eschatology with only a few of the related scriptures and not the entirety of Scripture? Matt 24 falls into a much larger immediate context. The entirety of the context is Matt chapter 21 thru chapter 25. The definition of the context is judgement. The context does not deal with rapture as it is a separate event. Using the most basic principle of hermeneutics, observation of the text, pay close attention to whom is taken and where they are taken to.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Zao is life
Upvote 0

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟182,548.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The topic is Paul vs these doctrines.
You're using people and books other than Paul.
So really we're only referring to the Eschatology that the Apostle Paul taught.
Now, it should agree with Eschatology from other books, but the crux of that is going to be interpretation.. if Paul doesn't seem to be agreeing with other portions of scripture.. then because scripture does not lie, your interpretation of that scripture is faulty.
Peter also teaches a Satan out and about on the prowl, rather than a Satan bound and unable to prevent the spread of the Gospel.
@fixn_junk said what I would reply to you. You cannot interpret what only Paul said using only what Paul said. Scripture interprets scripture.
 
Upvote 0

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟182,548.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The topic is Paul vs these doctrines.
You're using people and books other than Paul.
So really we're only referring to the Eschatology that the Apostle Paul taught.

Peter also teaches a Satan out and about on the prowl, rather than a Satan bound and unable to prevent the spread of the Gospel.
So now you've just contradicted yourself in one post.

But you also proved you never read my post because in it I was agreeing with you that Satan was not bound at Calvary, even though he was defeated at Calvary and cast out of heaven, and down to the earthly spiritual realm.

@Jamdoc PS: You're only speaking about Paul's teaching, not about anything said in the Revelation. Or in Matthew's gospel.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
7,371
2,301
43
Helena
✟203,984.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
So you want to handle eschatology with only a few of the related scriptures and not the entirety of Scripture? Matt 24 falls into a much larger immediate context. The entirety of the context is Matt chapter 21 thru chapter 25. The definition of the context is judgement. The context does not deal with rapture as it is a separate event. Using the most basic principle of hermeneutics, observation of the text, pay close attention to whom is taken and where they are taken to.

It's not a separate event according to Paul.
Paul links the two events in both letters to the Thessalonians.
Matthew 24/Mark 13/Luke 21 is also not to "unbelieving Jews/Israel" as many pretribulationists teach.
It is a private discourse to His disciples, Mark 13 specifies 4 of them. It says that it was private. No Pharisees present. The last thing He addressed to the pharisees is that they wouldn't see Him come to the temple again until they said blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. Matthew 23:39.
These 4 were BELIEVERS in Jesus, they were saved, and went on to plant Churches. They were Church fathers, and Jesus included them in statements like Matthew 24:15 when YE therefore shall see the Abomination of Desolation...

So who's the elect Jesus is gathering?
The saved
when does it happen? After the Abomination of Desolation.
Paul agrees with the Olivet Discourse.
does believing it happens after the Abomination of Desolation violate knowing a day or hour? No. both Jesus and Paul taught that nobody would know, and it'd be like a thief in the night. Which to reconcile this means it takes place at an unknown time after the abomination of desolation, but not any particular day... but it has a 3.5 year window, to reconcile with Daniel and Revelation.

Funnily enough, one of the biggest claims from pretribulationists is that only Paul taught the doctrine of the rapture and it was an unknown mystery prior to 1 Corinthians. Oh they'll use John 14 in their proofs but then immediately turn around and say that it was exclusive to Paul if you actually use the other Gospels to show them wrong.
Here I'm using Paul specifically because people put extra weight on Paul's writings for some of these doctrines to show that Paul does not agree with their position.

I'll throw in a Bonus. Titus 2
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

A lot of pretribulationists will claim the blessed hope is a pretribulation rapture.
But here Paul ties it to the second coming of Christ... again.
Nowhere does Paul ever teach it as separate.
Neither did Jesus
and Neither does John in Revelation. Revelation 14 is the closest match to 1 Thessalonians 4 and Matthew 24, but Revelation 6:12-17 also matches but without the harvesting details of Revelation 14, and it's not as explicit that Jesus is in the clouds then. I still interpet them as the same event, because of other details such as the sun and moon going dark and the tribes of the earth wailing in Revelation 6.
But Revelation 14, features Jesus on the clouds, the shouting archangels, the first reaping is not put through the wrath of God (which is importantly, done by Jesus), and the second reaping done by the angel is put through the wrath of God. Revelation 15 which follows, has saints in heaven singing, having overcome the mark of the beast. Just as Revelation 7 following Revelation 6, has saints in heaven holding objects in their hands (like they have a body), praising God having overcome great tribulation.

In both cases.. Jesus came first, then the saints were in heaven. Meaning the rapture was connected with the second coming, not a separate event.

In any case, none of them taught a SEPARATE rapture that was different from the second coming.
 
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
7,371
2,301
43
Helena
✟203,984.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
So now you've just contradicted yourself in one post.

But you also proved you never read my post because in it I was agreeing with you that Satan was not bound at Calvary, even though he was defeated at Calvary and cast out of heaven, and down to the earthly spiritual realm.

@Jamdoc PS: You're only speaking about Paul's teaching, not about anything said in the Revelation. Or in Matthew's gospel.

Because you said that I can't just use Paul.
but I am also showing that Paul agrees with other New Testament writers and with Jesus. Paul was not contradicting.
But because Paul's writings are given great emphasis, I am focusing on Paul's eschatology in particular.

But I would also stand by Paul agreeing with the rest of the new testament and not contradicting it.
If it appears to contradict then it is an interpretation problem.

But Paul did teach that there were currently in his day, spiritual wickedness and rulers of darkness in heavenly realms, which would contradict a preterist or amillennial interpretation of Revelation 12.

and yeah, I didn't read fully, because seeing what scripture you cited, none of it was from Paul except Hebrews at the end, and to be fair, authorship of Hebrews is debated. It is not explicitly Paul, though it is often credited to him.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟182,548.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Because you said that I can't just use Paul.
but I am also showing that Paul agrees with other New Testament writers and with Jesus. Paul was not contradicting.
But because Paul's writings are given great emphasis, I am focusing on Paul's eschatology in particular.

But I would also stand by Paul agreeing with the rest of the new testament and not contradicting it.
If it appears to contradict then it is an interpretation problem.

But Paul did teach that there were currently in his day, spiritual wickedness and rulers of darkness in heavenly realms, which would contradict a preterist or amillennial interpretation of Revelation 12.

and yeah, I didn't read fully, because seeing what scripture you cited, none of it was from Paul except Hebrews at the end, and to be fair, authorship of Hebrews is debated. It is not explicitly Paul, though it is often credited to him.
LOL. We're not even in disagreement on the pre-trib rapture thing, but you started your OP quoting Paul, and Revelation 12, bringing a whole different subject into the picture.

And Paul's teaching of spiritual wickedness and rulers of darkness in heavenly realms does not contradict the obvious meaning of the text of Revelation 12 (which you brought up in your OP, so excuse me for going back to something that has nothing to do with Paul's epistles).

I agreed with you except in for your point D, which is what I addressed. I assumed you wanted people to reply to the points you listed, rather than making one rule for yourself regarding whether or not it's allowed to speak about Revelation 12 which you brought up, and another rule for others.

I agree that the Lord's Olivet Discourse is not talking about the Jews in A.D 70.

(Sorry, but you brought up the Olivet Discourse, not me). The record of the Olivet Discourse was not written by Paul, so I'm going by the rules you laid down for yourself, not by the rules you laid down for everyone else, and I'm going outside of Paul's teaching):

JESUS' OLIVET DISCOURSE: A QUICK SUMMARY

Audience being addressed: The disciples of Jesus (Luke 21:8; Matthew 24:1; Mark 13:1-4).

Subjects:
(i) The coming destruction of the temple (Matthew 24:1-2; Mark 13:1-2; Luke 21:5-6).

(ii) The coming of the Son of man (Matthew 24:3, 30, 36-39; Mark 13:26, 32, 35; Luke 21:27, 31, 36).

(iii) The coming of the kingdom of Christ (Matthew 24:14 & Matthew 25:1; Mark 13:10; Luke 21:31).

(iv) The tribulation of the disciples of Jesus in the days leading up to the coming of the Son of Man (Matthew 24:9-13; Mark 13:9, 11-13; Luke 21:12-19 & 27-28).

(v) The coming distress of the inhabitants of Jerusalem and the coming wrath of God upon Jerusalem (Luke 21:20-24) *

* Whereas Luke uses the words distress and wrath to describe (v) above (it's notable that Luke does not use the word tribulation to describe it), neither Matthew nor Mark use the word wrath in their records of the Olivet Discourse, but only the words tribulation or affliction.

The reader of Matthew’s record of the Olivet Discourse who is not being intellectually dishonest with himself, will be able to see and acknowledge the fact that in Matthew's record of the Lord's prophecy, after introducing the theme of the tribulation of the disciples of Jesus (Matthew 24:9), Matthew joins verses 9 through 31 together into one long passage talking about one and the same tribulation, by employing the words, “then”, “and”, “but”, “wherefore/therefore”, “for”, and “immediately after”.

This shows that from verse 9 of Matthew 24 onward, it's the tribulation of the disciples of Jesus in the days leading up to the Son of man that is being spoken of (unlike Luke 21:20-24).

Those who teach otherwise are ignoring the fact that the tribulation of the disciples of Jesus in the days leading up to the Son of man is one of the main subjects in the Olivet Discourse.

@Jamdoc
So as you can see, what I said at the beginning of my first post to you is true:

I agree with some of the things you say in your OP and disagree with others.

With regards to your point D in your OP ...

Yes, I agree, Paul's teaching in 2 Thess 2 has not happened yet.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
7,371
2,301
43
Helena
✟203,984.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
LOL. We're not even in disagreement on the pre-trib rapture thing, but you started your OP quoting Paul, and Revelation 12, bringing a whole different subject into the picture.

And Paul's teaching of spiritual wickedness and rulers of darkness in heavenly realms does not contradict the obvious meaning of the text of Revelation 12 (which you brought up in your OP, so excuse me for going back to something that has nothing to do with Paul's epistles).

I agreed with you except in for your point D, which is what I addressed. I assumed you wanted people to reply to the points you listed, rather than making one rule for yourself regarding whether or not it's allowed to speak about Revelation 12 which you brought up, and another rule for others.

I agree that the Lord's Olivet Discourse is not talking about the Jews in A.D 70.

(Sorry, but you brought up the Olivet Discourse, not me). The record of the Olivet Discourse was not written by Paul, so I'm going by the rules you laid down for yourself, not by the rules you laid down for everyone else, and I'm going outside of Paul's teaching):

JESUS' OLIVET DISCOURSE: A QUICK SUMMARY

Audience being addressed: The disciples of Jesus (Luke 21:8; Matthew 24:1; Mark 13:1-4).

Subjects:
(i) The coming destruction of the temple (Matthew 24:1-2; Mark 13:1-2; Luke 21:5-6).

(ii) The coming of the Son of man (Matthew 24:3, 30, 36-39; Mark 13:26, 32, 35; Luke 21:27, 31, 36).

(iii) The coming of the kingdom of Christ (Matthew 24:14 & Matthew 25:1; Mark 13:10; Luke 21:31).

(iv) The tribulation of the disciples of Jesus in the days leading up to the coming of the Son of Man (Matthew 24:9-13; Mark 13:9, 11-13; Luke 21:12-19 & 27-28).

(v) The coming distress of the inhabitants of Jerusalem and the coming wrath of God upon Jerusalem (Luke 21:20-24) *

* Whereas Luke uses the words distress and wrath to describe (v) above (it's notable that Luke does not use the word tribulation to describe it), neither Matthew nor Mark use the word wrath in their records of the Olivet Discourse, but only the words tribulation or affliction.

The reader of Matthew’s record of the Olivet Discourse who is not being intellectually dishonest with himself, will be able to see and acknowledge the fact that in Matthew's record of the Lord's prophecy, after introducing the theme of the tribulation of the disciples of Jesus (Matthew 24:9), Matthew joins verses 9 through 31 together into one long passage talking about one and the same tribulation, by employing the words, “then”, “and”, “but”, “wherefore/therefore”, “for”, and “immediately after”.

This shows that from verse 9 of Matthew 24 onward, it's the tribulation of the disciples of Jesus in the days leading up to the Son of man that is being spoken of (unlike Luke 21:20-24).

Those who teach otherwise are ignoring the fact that the tribulation of the disciples of Jesus in the days leading up to the Son of man is one of the main subjects in the Olivet Discourse.

@Jamdoc
So as you can see, what I said at the beginning of my first post to you is true:

I agree with some of the things you say in your OP and disagree with others.

With regards to your point D in your OP ...

Yes, I agree, Paul's teaching in 2 Thess 2 has not happened yet.

Well I guess my "rule" was that I wanted to tie any references to other scripture, to something Paul taught, since truly the theme is regarding the Eschatology of Paul.

which the key things were: 1. Rapture and Second coming happen at the same time 2. Rapture is not imminent, but has prophetic conditions that have to be met first 3. It's still a future event from Paul's point of view 4. Satan is not currently bound and prevented from deceiving the nations (admittedly you have to go to Revelation to get into that topic because it's the only place where it's outright said that Satan will exist, and be bound, then later released, but ultimately, Paul taught an active and dangerous Satan rather than a powerless and wholly defeated foe that you didn't have to worry about) 5. The world will get more and more unrighteous until Jesus comes, not better.

Where it gets a little murkier is whether or not Paul would be actually Premillennial or not, and whether his position was pre wrath or post trib. Those are a little harder to figure out, and being that Revelation was not written during his lifetime, we don't really have his thoughts on what John experienced. Not yet anyway. He'd definitely have interesting perspectives on it I'm sure.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Zao is life
Upvote 0

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟182,548.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well I guess my "rule" was that I wanted to tie any references to other scripture, to something Paul taught, since truly the theme is regarding the Eschatology of Paul.

which the key things were: 1. Rapture and Second coming happen at the same time 2. Rapture is not imminent, but has prophetic conditions that have to be met first 3. It's still a future event from Paul's point of view 4. Satan is not currently bound and prevented from deceiving the nations (admittedly you have to go to Revelation to get into that topic because it's the only place where it's outright said that Satan will exist, and be bound, then later released, but ultimately, Paul taught an active and dangerous Satan rather than a powerless and wholly defeated foe that you didn't have to worry about) 5. The world will get more and more unrighteous until Jesus comes, not better.

Where it gets a little murkier is whether or not Paul would be actually Premillennial or not, and whether his position was pre wrath or post trib. Those are a little harder to figure out, and being that Revelation was not written during his lifetime, we don't really have his thoughts on what John experienced. Not yet anyway. He'd definitely have interesting perspectives on it I'm sure.
Here's how Matthew 24 and 2 Thessalonians 2 line up with one another:

(Concentrate on the Greek words rather than the English words used to translate them):

1. Tribulation & apostasy ("falling away" from faith in Christ):

Mark 4
16 And these are those likewise being sown on stony places; who, when they hear the Word, immediately receive it with gladness.
17 But they have no root in themselves, but are temporary. Afterward when tribulation [θλῖψις thlîpsis] or persecution arises for the Word's sake, they are immediately offended [σκανδαλίζω skandalízō].

02347
θλῖψις thlîpsis, thlip'-sis
from 2346;
pressure (literally or figuratively):--afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

04624
σκανδαλίζω skandalízō, skan-dal-id'-zo
from 4625;
to entrap, i.e. trip up (figuratively, stumble (transitively) or entice to sin, apostasy or displeasure):--(make to) offend.

2. Apostasy, betrayal, lawlessness:

Matthew 24

9 At the time that [τότε tóte] (at the time that the end shall come: see verses 13 & 14b)

they will deliver you up to tribulation [θλῖψις thlîpsis] and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake.

10 And then many will be offended [σκανδαλίζω skandalízō], and will betray one another, and will hate one another.
11 And many false prophets will rise and deceive many.

12 And because lawlessness [ἀνομία anomía] shall abound, the love of many will become cold.

13 But he who endures to the end, the same shall be kept safe.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all nations. And then the end shall come.

15 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand)...

22 ... But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened...

31 .. and they shall gather His elect...

2 Thessalonians 2: the apostasy, the lawless one:

3 Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away [ho ἀποστασία apostasía] (Greek: ho apostasia, THE apostasy), and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition,

4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself forth, that he is God...

8 .. And then the lawless one [ἄνομος ánomos] will be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.."

Both involve the time of the end.
Both involve apostasy.
Both involve lawlessness.
Both involve an abomination in the temple of God.
Both end with the coming of the Son of man.


Lastly, "Let the reader understand": The Greek word naos is used for the temple the man of sin will seat himself up in, and it refers to the church (click on the link).

@Jamdoc Here's proof that the Bible does not talk about a "Pre tribulation rapture".

I have put all that up in threads here before, so I'm short-cutting it this time by giving you the links.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: DavidPT
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
7,371
2,301
43
Helena
✟203,984.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Here's how Matthew 24 and 2 Thessalonians 2 line up with one another:

(Concentrate on the Greek words rather than the English words used to translate them):

1. Tribulation & apostasy ("falling away" from faith in Christ):

Mark 4
16 And these are those likewise being sown on stony places; who, when they hear the Word, immediately receive it with gladness.
17 But they have no root in themselves, but are temporary. Afterward when tribulation [θλῖψις thlîpsis] or persecution arises for the Word's sake, they are immediately offended [σκανδαλίζω skandalízō].

02347
θλῖψις thlîpsis, thlip'-sis
from 2346;
pressure (literally or figuratively):--afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

04624
σκανδαλίζω skandalízō, skan-dal-id'-zo
from 4625;
to entrap, i.e. trip up (figuratively, stumble (transitively) or entice to sin, apostasy or displeasure):--(make to) offend.

2. Apostasy, betrayal, lawlessness:

Matthew 24

9 At the time that [τότε tóte] (at the time that the end shall come: see verses 13 & 14b)

they will deliver you up to tribulation [θλῖψις thlîpsis] and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake.

10 And then many will be offended [σκανδαλίζω skandalízō], and will betray one another, and will hate one another.
11 And many false prophets will rise and deceive many.

12 And because lawlessness [ἀνομία anomía] shall abound, the love of many will become cold.

13 But he who endures to the end, the same shall be kept safe.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all nations. And then the end shall come.

15 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand)...

22 ... But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened...

31 .. and they shall gather His elect...

2 Thessalonians 2: the apostasy, the lawless one:
3 Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away [ho ἀποστασία apostasía] (Greek: ho apostasia, THE apostasy), and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition,

4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself forth, that he is God...

8 .. And then the lawless one [ἄνομος ánomos] will be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.."

Both involve the time of the end.
Both involve apostasy.
Both involve lawlessness.
Both involve an abomination in the temple of God.
Both end with the coming of the Son of man.


Lastly, "Let the reader understand": The Greek word naos is used for the temple the man of sin will seat himself up in, and it refers to the church (click on the link).

@Jamdoc Here's proof that the Bible does not talk about a "Pre tribulation rapture".

I have put all that up in threads here before, so I'm short-cutting it this time by giving you the links.

Yeah I agree, I read the Thessalonians epistles and see Paul basically giving his own teaching on the Olivet Discourse and a lot of people seem to think Paul was just pulling this stuff out of the air by the Holy Spirit but I lean more towards Paul was guided (by the spirit) through both old testament scripture and through the gospel accounts, I lean towards an earlier date for the gospel of Matthew.
The teachings in Thessalonians are too similar for the Gospel of Matthew or Mark to not have been used as a source Material
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Zao is life
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Where it gets a little murkier is whether or not Paul would be actually Premillennial or not, and whether his position was pre wrath or post trib. Those are a little harder to figure out

It's not harder to figure out if he was Premil or not. The following appears to easily prove he is Premil, in light of parables, such as the parable of the talents. In light of Jesus sitting upon His throne of glory, when they which have followed Him, in the regeneration also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. All of which are meaning post the 2nd coming. All of which have to be fulfilled before the end meant in verse 24 below can come to pass. None of these things above can be fulfilled within a 24 hour day or less.

Obviously, He doesn't put down all rule and all authority and power, before the regeneration when He shall sit in the throne of his glory, when those that have followed Him shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. IMO, this is involving the reigning with, not being reigned over, that the thousand years recorded in Revelation 20 is referring to. One is reigned over in this age, that's assuming one permits Him to. The reward for that is 'reigning with Him' in the next age.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Since I also brought up the parable of talents(Luke 19:11-27), that parable shows that Jesus rewards His servants that proved to be faithful while He was away, with that of authority over cities, whatever that might actually look like. Regardless what it might look like, it is ludicrous that the same day He rewards them with this authority, the end meant in 1 Corinthians 15:24 comes, thus He putting down all rule and all authority and power, but that His faithful servants don't also put down the authority He gives them when He returns. There is obviously a gap after the coming recorded in 1 Corinthians 15:23 and that of the end meant in verse 24. Not a gap of hours, but a gap of a thousand years and a little season followed by a great white throne judgment.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟182,548.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yeah I agree, I read the Thessalonians epistles and see Paul basically giving his own teaching on the Olivet Discourse and a lot of people seem to think Paul was just pulling this stuff out of the air by the Holy Spirit but I lean more towards Paul was guided (by the spirit) through both old testament scripture and through the gospel accounts, I lean towards an earlier date for the gospel of Matthew.
The teachings in Thessalonians are too similar for the Gospel of Matthew or Mark to not have been used as a source Material
Remember that these men all knew one another and had spent time together, even after Paul's conversion. Don't tell me they never discussed the Lord's Olivet Discourse at times when Paul was in the company of one or two or more of the others. There was a time when they were all together when Paul went to Jerusalem the first time following his conversion, when they were all having a spat over the Gentile circumcision thing.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Jamdoc
Upvote 0

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟182,548.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It's not harder to figure out if he was Premil or not. The following appears to easily prove he is Premil, in light of parables, such as the parable of the talents. In light of Jesus sitting upon His throne of glory, when they which have followed Him, in the regeneration also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. All of which are meaning post the 2nd coming. All of which have to be fulfilled before the end meant in verse 24 below can come to pass. None of these things above can be fulfilled within a 24 hour day or less.

Obviously, He doesn't put down all rule and all authority and power, before the regeneration when He shall sit in the throne of his glory, when those that have followed Him shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. IMO, this is involving the reigning with, not being reigned over, that the thousand years recorded in Revelation 20 is referring to. One is reigned over in this age, that's assuming one permits Him to. The reward for that is 'reigning with Him' in the next age.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Since I also brought up the parable of talents(Luke 19:11-27), that parable shows that Jesus rewards His servants that proved to be faithful while He was away, with that of authority over cities, whatever that might actually look like. Regardless what it might look like, it is ludicrous that the same day He rewards them with this authority, the end meant in 1 Corinthians 15:24 comes, thus He putting down all rule and all authority and power, but that His faithful servants don't also put down the authority He gives them when He returns. There is obviously a gap after the coming recorded in 1 Corinthians 15:23 and that of the end meant in verse 24. Not a gap of hours, but a gap of a thousand years and a little season followed by a great white throne judgment.
The trouble is we can't really use Jesus' promise to the disciples in Mathew 19:28, because this Greek word for "regeneration" is only used twice in the New Testament:

Titus 3:5
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration [παλιγγενεσία palingenesía] and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Matthew 19
28 And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration [παλιγγενεσία palingenesía], when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

In the first verse it's referring to our new birth by the Spirit of God, not to the Age to come.

The parable of the talents I don't know how we're supposed to take it, aside from the obvious and first lesson it's teaching us.

@DavidPT

In this verse to me it seems to mean He is going away and they will receive apostleship in the Kingdom which has already come, it does not of necessity mean the Kingdom that is still coming:

Luke 22
26 But you shall not be so: but the greater among you, let him be as the lesser, and he who governs, as one who serves.
27 For which is the greater; he who reclines, or he who serves? Is it not he who reclines? But I am among you as He who serves.
28 You are those who have continued with Me in My trials.
29 And I appoint a kingdom to you, as My Father has appointed to Me,
30 that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The trouble is we can't really use Jesus' promise to the disciples in Mathew 19:28, because this Greek word for "regeneration" is only used twice in the New Testament:

Titus 3:5
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration [παλιγγενεσία palingenesía] and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Matthew 19
28 And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration [παλιγγενεσία palingenesía], when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

In the first verse it's referring to our new birth by the Spirit of God, not to the Age to come.

The parable of the talents I don't know how we're supposed to take it, aside from the obvious and first lesson it's teaching us.

@DavidPT

In this verse to me it seems to mean He is going away and they will receive apostleship in the Kingdom which has already come, it does not of necessity mean the Kingdom that is still coming:

Luke 22
26 But you shall not be so: but the greater among you, let him be as the lesser, and he who governs, as one who serves.
27 For which is the greater; he who reclines, or he who serves? Is it not he who reclines? But I am among you as He who serves.
28 You are those who have continued with Me in My trials.
29 And I appoint a kingdom to you, as My Father has appointed to Me,
30 that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Maybe Luke 22 is proving all eternity might be meant, I'm not sure. But as to the passage involving regeneration, I'm not seeing how you're not seeing when that is meaning. It tells us when it is is meaning, that's the point of the 'when' recorded in that verse---when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, where Matthew 25:31 makes it crystal clear as to the timing of this.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


In the KJV the translators placed the comma after followed me, not after followed me in the regeneration. Had the comma been here instead, it changes the entire meaning of the verse since it seems to mean the regeneration meant that it is pertaining to this age. But even when comparing with other translations, such as the following, it is obvious from even this translation when the regeneration is meaning.

Matthew 19:28
New International Version

28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
 
Upvote 0

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟182,548.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But as to the passage involving regeneration, I'm not seeing how you're not seeing when that is meaning. It tells us when it is is meaning, that's the point of the 'when' recorded in that verse---when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, where Matthew 25:31 makes it crystal clear as to the timing of this.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Yes, you are right, and I think you've pointed that out before, but I missed it again. Thanks for pointing it out (again).

That's actually key. Like very important. Because no one can deny that "the throne of His glory" (Matthew 25:31) has not come yet.

Maybe Luke 22 is proving all eternity might be meant, I'm not sure.
In the KJV the translators placed the comma after followed me, not after followed me in the regeneration. Had the comma been here instead, it changes the entire meaning of the verse since it seems to mean the regeneration meant that it is pertaining to this age. But even when comparing with other translations, such as the following, it is obvious from even this translation when the regeneration is meaning.

Matthew 19:28
New International Version

28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
The words "the throne of His glory" is enough for me to place it post Matthew 25:31. I was looking at the word "regeneration" only.

Of course we know that it will be and obviously has been argued that He is already seated on the throne of His glory, but He is not in the sense of Matthew 25:31.

I think that verse may be key.

But there are a good few things that still make no sense to me that still leave me safely in the agnosmillennialist camp. The fact that both Jesus and Peter used the flood as the type for the coming of the Son of man, and John 3:18. The type indicates no survivors of the Day of Christ who are not in "the ark" and the Lord's statement in John 3:18 is explicit.

It's very confusing, and that's without even getting into Revelation 20:4-6, which no one who believes in a literal 42 months before the return of Christ like I do can place before the beast has ascended.

LOL. I remain an agnosmillennialist.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes, you are right, and I think you've pointed that out before, but I missed it again. Thanks for pointing it out (again).

That's actually key. Like very important. Because no one can deny that "the throne of His glory" (Matthew 25:31) has not come yet.


The words "the throne of His glory" is enough for me to place it post Matthew 25:31. I was looking at the word "regeneration" only.

Of course we know that it will be and obviously has been argued that He is already seated on the throne of His glory, but He is not in the sense of Matthew 25:31.

I think that verse may be key.

But there are a good few things that still make no sense to me that still leave me safely in the agnosmillennialist camp. The fact that both Jesus and Peter used the flood as the type for the coming of the Son of man, and John 3:18. The type indicates no survivors of the Day of Christ who are not in "the ark" and the Lord's statement in John 3:18 is explicit.

It's very confusing, and that's without even getting into Revelation 20:4-6, which no one who believes in a literal 42 months before the return of Christ like I do can place before the beast has ascended.

LOL. I remain an agnosmillennialist.


What's in question, is the regeneration involving a finite time or is it something that is endless? If the former rather the latter, how can anything other than the thousand years possibly explain the finite time meant? But if the latter is meant, this thousand years is irrelevant in that case.

Then we have to ask ourselves, what does all of this mean once the following has been fulfilled?---he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power(1 Corinthians 15:24)---then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all(1 Corinthians 15:28).


As to this agnosmillennialist, now that I fully grasp what you are meaning by that, I don't see that being a bad place to be at all. Now if only some of the rest of us, and not just Premils, but Amils as well, could also be in that place.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zao is life
Upvote 0