Look up?

James_Lai · Jan 23, 2022

Sketcher said:
The omnipresence of God makes all of this moot. He was talking about posturing ourselves before God in a way that is honoring to him.

In my habit respect is bowing, lifting hands would be disrespect. But I understand. Where’s God you think? In the physical space somewhere out in the outer space, or elsewhere?

James_Lai · Jan 23, 2022

Michael Collum said:
The first humans had an alive spirit, so they could converse with God.

However, because of the ingesting of the knowledge of good and evil, they died in that spiritual sense. The bodies lived on and many children with dead spirits were born.

The access was made possible again through Jesus Christ who makes our spirits alive again when we are born again through the Holy Spirit.

The access is through trust or faith in Jesus Christ who died on the cross to blot out the effect of the ancestral sins, so we could be in community with Father God once again.

I understand. Where is God? in space or in another plane?

James_Lai · Jan 23, 2022

Martinius said:
You are correct. We have no need to look anywhere but within ourselves (I bolded that part of your post). God cannot be in any place, since that would make God a finite being. Our soul, which is within us, is our direct connection to God. We are created body and soul, and since we know the body to be a finite, physical entity with a limited lifespan, our soul, which is spirit and is eternal, is the part of us that's in the "image" of God.

The concept of God above us is from the early view of a limited universe with earth at the center. The idea of a globe with people living on the opposite side, with their up as our down, was inconceivable.

But the idea of raising our eyes, or our hands, to heaven, is ingrained into our cultures. Think of it not as "up" but as outward, to some place beyond our human reality.

Then God is separate from this world, but can communicate, connect, influence? Or what is the mechanics of God?

Sketcher · Jan 23, 2022

James_Lai said:
In my habit respect is bowing, lifting hands would be disrespect. But I understand. Where’s God you think? In the physical space somewhere out in the outer space, or elsewhere?

I am in full agreement with the Scripture, Jeremiah 23:23-24:

"Am I a God at hand, declares the LORD, and not a God far away? Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him?" declares the LORD. "Do I not fill heaven and earth?" declares the LORD.

Eloy Craft · Jan 23, 2022

ViaCrucis said:
I think they did see Jesus ascend. But does that mean that Jesus is floating somewhere in the material universe? No, I don't think that's what Jesus' ascension means, that's not what it meant two thousand years ago and it's not what we mean today.

The Ascension is about the Enthronement of the Messiah, whose Throne is at the right hand of the Father "in heaven". So we confess and believe that Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father. But it would be incredibly errant to think God is seated on a literal chair "somewhere up there".

To that end the most important meaning of "heaven", is that it signifies the power, reality, and authority of God. So we read, "The heavens are My throne, and the earth is My footstool" in Isaiah 66:1. We see that "heaven" is used to signify God, such as where the terms "kingdom of God" and "kingdom of heaven" are the same.

So the point of Jesus' Ascension, His ascension into the heavens, is about His taking His seat at the right hand of the Father. It's about the exalting of the Christ, such as we read, "So God has highly exalted Him and given Him the name that is above every other name". Such also that we read in the Acts of the Apostles that God has made Jesus "both Lord and Christ". It's what we read about in the vision of Daniel concerning the Son of Man taken up in clouds before the Ancient of Days and being given power and everlasting kingdom.

Did the disciples see Jesus physically taken up? Yeah. What exactly did they see, what precisely this all looked like, we don't know. But Jesus was taken out of their sight, and then is seated in glory. Any attempts to speculate beyond this gets us into all kinds of unnecessarily wacky and near certainly wrong ideas.

I confess that the Incarnate Son of God, Jesus Christ--body, soul, and divinity--lives and reigns at the right hand of the Father and fills all things, and whenever the Church comes together to receive the Holy Eucharist, Here that same Jesus is really, truly, literally found. So that the bread and wine is truly, physically and spiritually, the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ. The same body that was conceived in Mary, that was crucified, that died, and that came out of the tomb, is the body of He who fills all things. How can this be? Only God knows, and yet yielding my conscience to the word of God I am compelled by Christian faith to confess this--and this I do joyfully and believing fully in these mysteries.

-CryptoLutheran

Creator of all that is seen and unseen after all. How sublime their communion.

Psalm 27 · Jan 24, 2022

James_Lai said:
Hello.

The other day I was listening to a great sermon, so powerful and insightful. At one point the preacher said, “let’s lift our holy hands up to heaven”…

Is it really up? Isn’t it a mistake to look up? Our round rock of a planet is constantly spinning and flying around the Sun and the Sun is flying around the centre of the Milky Way galaxy and so on.

Should we not look into our hearts? Isn’t it where the depths of God are hidden?

Otherwise, “up” is a grave misconception and dangerous error? As there’s no such thing as “up”, it’s nothing but a flat-earth optical illusion…

Luke's Gospel says, of The return of Jesus
"Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

angelsaroundme · Jan 24, 2022

James_Lai said:
okay… but where is God really, you think?

James_Lai said:
Where is God for you?

If you mean literally, I think God is literally everywhere.

"Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast. If I say, 'Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me,' even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you." - Psalms 139:7-12

When I think of the "up" versus "within" that is a conceptual matter. Within to me implies a personal and more involved relationship. It's really trying to be close to God. Where thinking of God as being up there can imply separateness, like God is watching over at a distance, not standing beside you. You love God and follow God but maybe you are more focused on people. But this is just one way of viewing it. "Up" doesn't have to imply a lesser relationship. It can just be an expression, a way to focus on certain blessings, or aspects of God.

Gregory Thompson · Jan 24, 2022

James_Lai said:
I understand. Where is God? in space or in another plane?

Well the bible tells it like this.

In the beginning God said "light" so there was light.

Then there was water, because God called it forth.

Then God called forth the firmament, or heaven to separate the water in two.

Then (day 4) God added sun moon and stars to the firmament so we could keep time.

However, the light created the first day already allowed the keeping of time.

This day four addition hid the waters, and light on the other side of the firmament or heaven. Thus God's place is beyond our sky.

Akita Suggagaki · Jan 24, 2022

James_Lai said:
What is kingdom of God for you?

A many layered meaning. The kingdom of God starts as an idea and inspiration, a frame of mind, a world view, a way t see life and a love to carry in our hearts. But it is also a very real and tangible realm that extends from our natural world into a transcendent domain.

James_Lai · Jan 24, 2022

angelsaroundme said:
If you mean literally, I think God is literally everywhere.

"Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast. If I say, 'Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me,' even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you." - Psalms 139:7-12

When I think of the "up" versus "within" that is a conceptual matter. Within to me implies a personal and more involved relationship. It's really trying to be close to God. Where thinking of God as being up there can imply separateness, like God is watching over at a distance, not standing beside you. You love God and follow God but maybe you are more focused on people. But this is just one way of viewing it. "Up" doesn't have to imply a lesser relationship. It can just be an expression, a way to focus on certain blessings, or aspects of God.

God is everywhere, so He belongs to the 3D space?

James_Lai · Jan 24, 2022

Michael Collum said:
Well the bible tells it like this.

In the beginning God said "light" so there was light.

Then there was water, because God called it forth.

Then God called forth the firmament, or heaven to separate the water in two.

Then (day 4) God added sun moon and stars to the firmament so we could keep time.

However, the light created the first day already allowed the keeping of time.

This day four addition hid the waters, and light on the other side of the firmament or heaven. Thus God's place is beyond our sky.

He exists physically at some 3D co-ordinates of space?

James_Lai · Jan 24, 2022

Akita Suggagaki said:
A many layered meaning. The kingdom of God starts as an idea and inspiration, a frame of mind, a world view, a way t see life and a love to carry in our hearts. But it is also a very real and tangible realm that extends from our natural world into a transcendent domain.

An idea and a supernatural realm connected to the natural? Is it parallel to the natural? Or completely separate?

James_Lai · Jan 24, 2022

Sketcher said:
I am in full agreement with the Scripture, Jeremiah 23:23-24:

"Am I a God at hand, declares the LORD, and not a God far away? Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him?" declares the LORD. "Do I not fill heaven and earth?" declares the LORD.

Fill heaven and earth - earth is pretty clear, what’s heaven? Physical universe or a spiritual plane?

Akita Suggagaki · Jan 24, 2022

James_Lai said:
An idea and a supernatural realm connected to the natural? Is it parallel to the natural? Or completely separate?

In my view it is al connected. Degrees of subtlety. The only difference between natural and supernatural is the limit of our common perception. They interpenetrate, like the biological and atomic realms.

Sketcher · Jan 24, 2022

James_Lai said:
Fill heaven and earth - earth is pretty clear, what’s heaven? Physical universe or a spiritual plane?

Either/or. Both.

Gregory Thompson · Jan 24, 2022

James_Lai said:
He exists physically at some 3D co-ordinates of space?

Apparently He does, but until the sky is peeled back like an orange, (paraphrasing) no one will see Him.

Martinius · Jan 24, 2022

James_Lai said:
Then God is separate from this world, but can communicate, connect, influence? Or what is the mechanics of God?

Not exactly. If we think of ourselves as physical body as well as spirit (soul) our connection to God is through the soul. And God is not "separate" from this world, for if God is infinite, then everything must be contained within God. Unless you propose a separate place or dimension for us, and another for God. But that doesn't work since that would mean something exists outside of an infinite God, which would be a sort of Catch 22.

Regarding mechanics, let's use an analogy. Consider our soul like a cell phone, which links only to God (perhaps not only, but that's another topic). God sends us messages, but we may block the calls (don't want to hear them) or ignore them (from constantly focusing on temporal desires and worries instead). Our own communications with God (prayer, meditation, contemplation), if we do them, may often be considered like junk mail or worthless spam and basically ignored.

This communication line is always open, but many people don't know it or they pay insufficient attention to it.

Right now, there are an uncountable number of electro-magnetic waves moving around you, past you, through you. Unless you have the proper equipment (radio, phone, tablet, etc.) you have no evidence of their existence. They do you no good. Our soul is like that; we need to have it "turned on" and ready to receive the signals coming to us. And then we have to actually respond to the messages.

Where is God? Your original post said it: we must look within us. Not in another place, not in a heaven somewhere, but right here, and right now. God is as close to us as our soul is.

James_Lai · Jan 24, 2022

Martinius said:
Not exactly. If we think of ourselves as physical body as well as spirit (soul) our connection to God is through the soul. And God is not "separate" from this world, for if God is infinite, then everything must be contained within God. Unless you propose a separate place or dimension for us, and another for God. But that doesn't work since that would mean something exists outside of an infinite God, which would be a sort of Catch 22.

Regarding mechanics, let's use an analogy. Consider our soul like a cell phone, which links only to God (perhaps not only, but that's another topic). God sends us messages, but we may block the calls (don't want to hear them) or ignore them (from constantly focusing on temporal desires and worries instead). Our own communications with God (prayer, meditation, contemplation), if we do them, may often be considered like junk mail or worthless spam and basically ignored.

This communication line is always open, but many people don't know it or they pay insufficient attention to it.

Right now, there are an uncountable number of electro-magnetic waves moving around you, past you, through you. Unless you have the proper equipment (radio, phone, tablet, etc.) you have no evidence of their existence. They do you no good. Our soul is like that; we need to have it "turned on" and ready to receive the signals coming to us. And then we have to actually respond to the messages.

Where is God? Your original post said it: we must look within us. Not in another place, not in a heaven somewhere, but right here, and right now. God is as close to us as our soul is.

Detection and presence are two different things though. Like people of NDEs report moving towards a light source, so as if God energy belongs to some co-ordinates of space, or it could be a whole different dimension.

Martinius · Jan 24, 2022

James_Lai said:
Detection and presence are two different things though. Like people of NDEs report moving towards a light source, so as if God energy belongs to some co-ordinates of space, or it could be a whole different dimension.

I go for the latter, since if the energy/light occupied actual space, it could be detected or observed outside of the NDE. Plus, those reporting such experiences are not physically moving; their bodies remain where they are.

God is present in among and within us, but cannot be "detected" in a scientific manner. We know there is dark matter and dark energy in the universe that we theorize exists, that has to exist, but it has not been directly "observed". I see God's spirit and our soul as similar to that.

James_Lai · Jan 24, 2022

Martinius said:
I go for the latter, since if the energy/light occupied actual space, it could be detected or observed outside of the NDE. Plus, those reporting such experiences are not physically moving; their bodies remain where they are.

God is present in among and within us, but cannot be "detected" in a scientific manner. We know there is dark matter and dark energy in the universe that we theorize exists, that has to exist, but it has not been directly "observed". I see God's spirit and our soul as similar to that.

Well, I don’t mean light or energy that propagates in space as electromagnetic radiation in a physical sense, though it could maybe both. NDEer bodies are static, but it’s their “souls” that move at high rate of speed as they experience it or they could be entering another dimension. The initial stage of NDE when the “soul” comes out of body, they’re able to see/hear the physical plane but can’t interact with it themselves. So the physical doesn’t seem to be conpletely parallel to the spiritual

Detecting not by our sensory organs of course, though that is a possibility too, but by our “soul” again - and translated to the mind and becomes a “revelation”. If it bypasses or doesn’t reach the mind, could be taken as “intuition” or deep subconscious knowledge.

All of the above is nothing but silly ideas, it all might work very differently not for our faculties even to begin to understand

Dark matter and dark energy, there are alternative theories in physics that do not necessitate them. For example, slowing-down time hypothesis, when the Universe expands at constant rate without acceleration.

Look up?

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