Thoughts on the death penalty?

9Rock9 · Jan 23, 2022

So, where should a Christian stand on the death penalty?

Is it ever necessary to use today?

Opponents point out that it is more expensive than life in prison, as well as there being a racial bias and the possibility the person is innocent.

Are these reasons alone enough to abolish it, or can we reform the system to overcome these problems? If so, what kind of reforms do you suggest?

Rachel20 · Jan 23, 2022

I know Christians hold different views on this. I made my personal decision when I asked myself if I could "pull the lever" myself. The answer, for me, is no. I wouldn't be able to get the Lords words out of my mind: let him who is without sin cast the first stone. Life imprisonment, and then the righteous one will judge after that.

miamited · Jan 23, 2022

Hi @9Rock9

I think it should be considered that murder, the taking of another's life, is about the most egregious sin that one can commit against another. As a christian, I have no problem with the death penalty, although I think the evidence should be sure. I do also agree that the penalty itself does seem to be applied, in some cases, unfairly as regards race. The Scriptures do apply the death penalty for murder under the old covenant and they also speak to the issue that if one lives by the sword then he shall also die by the sword. Further, even in the case of self defense murder, under the old covenant law, that person was still required to leave the community and seek an appointed city of refuge. According to the Scriptures, this was done just so the avenger of death would not find them. So, I think there is ample evidence within the Scriptures that the death penalty for murder is not something that God is against.

For me, I would like to see a more sure use of the penalty. For example, if one is convicted on sound evidence and the purpose of the murder was for some reason to gain something or get away with some act or to overpower another, then I believe it would be a better deterrent if it were applied always and forever as the sentence in such a case.

I believe that God, in giving to Moses His law, used the penalty of death for certain crimes for the express purpose of it being used in all cases and being a sure and certain penalty. Today, it's really more the rule that if one commits the general run of the mill murder, that they're likely to just have to give up some freedom...if they are caught. So you throw the dice. If you get caught, you do the time and become an even more hardened criminal. You'll very likely commit even worse crimes after being released. With a sure and certain death penalty, while I don't even consider that it would stop all murders, I believe it would, at the very least, give one who is contemplating such an act, pause. Further, as a penalty for the taking of someone's life, I think it is not only in agreement with God's law, but a fair and just penalty just for the betterment of society as a whole.

Just consider, if there were a penalty for divorce that both the man and the woman be made sterile by vasectomy or tubal ligation procedure; and if that penalty were applied for certain, how many less divorces we might have. I'm speaking of a situation where as soon as a judge would announce a marriage dissolved that the two parties would immediately, within 30 minutes of leaving the courtroom, be transferred by authorities to a clinic to perform the procedure. Not some plan whereby the parties are told to get the procedure and then left up to themselves to go out and get it done. I rather imagine that the divorce rate would drop precipitously. I believe that if death for murder were the 99% sure penalty, there'd also be a lot fewer murders. I also believe that's what God intended in giving Moses the law for His people, Israel.

God bless,
Ted

Sabertooth · Jan 23, 2022

God assigns those in authority the duty to

execute criminals,
repel military enemies,
defend one's household (and others).

Killing in those contexts is justified, if necessary.

grasping the after wind · Jan 23, 2022

9Rock9 said:
So, where should a Christian stand on the death penalty?

Is it ever necessary to use today?

Opponents point out that it is more expensive than life in prison, as well as there being a racial bias and the possibility the person is innocent.

Are these reasons alone enough to abolish it, or can we reform the system to overcome these problems? If so, what kind of reforms do you suggest?

Freedom can be restored if a person is wrongly convicted but life cannot be. The premeditated cold-blooded killing of a human being is murder. Even IMO when it is the state killing someone who a jury of one's peers has found guilty of doing something monstrous. My understanding of Christ's command to love my neighbor and even my enemy would not permit me to support the death penalty for any human being at any stage of development. My sense of proportion, justice and grace rebels at the thought of a person who was not guilty of a crime being executed because of a mistaken belief in that person's guilt or worse because of some prosecutor's need to find someone, anyone, to blame for a crime. Until we have only infallible people deciding upon guilt, we should not use a form of punishment that cannot be rescinded if we should later find that we were incorrect in our pronouncement of guilt.

SkyWriting · Jan 23, 2022

miamited said:
I think it should be considered that murder, the taking of another's life, is about the most egregious sin that one can commit against another.

I consider pedophilia worse than sending innocent people to be with God.
The long term damage is difficult to repair here. God can handle the innocent
as well as the guilty.

iluvatar5150 · Jan 23, 2022

Even if you're okay with capital punishment on a philosophical level, the US has done such a poor, unbalanced, unjust job of administering it, that, at a minimum, we ought shelve it for a long time.

toocoolblue · Jan 30, 2022

What's the point?
The way we administer the death penalty makes it pointless to have anyway.
In 1999, a wacko killed a bunch of people. The whole thing was caught on video.
People tried to get away, he was merciless. No question about his guilt.
But since then, the wacko has utilized every legal trick in the book to avoid the death penalty. 23 years later, he's still on death row.
So, how can the death penalty serve as some kind of deterrent if nobody remembers the crime by the time the punishment is carried out?

SkyWriting · Jan 30, 2022

I think we've done a right krakin' good job of proper justice these days.

29 Then the Spirit of the Lord came on Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites. 30 And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”

32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the Lord gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.

miamited · Jan 30, 2022

Hi @toocoolblue

toocoolblue said:
What's the point?
The way we administer the death penalty makes it pointless to have anyway.

I agree 100%. Up until the last 100 years, if someone were sentenced to death, the act was usually carried out within just a few days or weeks. In the UK in the 1800's if you were convicted of murder, the sentence was most surely death. There wasn't a lot of wiggle room for excuses.

Today, however, the chances of one getting away with murder in keeping their own life is likely better than 90%. So, what kind of deterrent does that present? I believe that when God's word prescribed the death penalty for crimes, it was expected to be carried out swiftly and surely. I mean, there really is a part of our thinking that goes, "if I commit this murder I am killing myself...no I don't think I want to go there."

Of course, that's not to say that a regular and swift death penalty is going to just take the act of murder out of our lives, but I think it makes a huge difference in the numbers, when most everyone expects that if they kill someone they will also die.

God bless,
Ted

Tiberius Lee · Jan 31, 2022

Capital punishment is un-Biblical. End of the story!

Tiberius Lee · Jan 31, 2022

miamited said:
Hi @9Rock9

I think it should be considered that murder, the taking of another's life, is about the most egregious sin that one can commit against another. As a christian, I have no problem with the death penalty, although I think the evidence should be sure. I do also agree that the penalty itself does seem to be applied, in some cases, unfairly as regards race. The Scriptures do apply the death penalty for murder under the old covenant and they also speak to the issue that if one lives by the sword then he shall also die by the sword. Further, even in the case of self defense murder, under the old covenant law, that person was still required to leave the community and seek an appointed city of refuge. According to the Scriptures, this was done just so the avenger of death would not find them. So, I think there is ample evidence within the Scriptures that the death penalty for murder is not something that God is against.

For me, I would like to see a more sure use of the penalty. For example, if one is convicted on sound evidence and the purpose of the murder was for some reason to gain something or get away with some act or to overpower another, then I believe it would be a better deterrent if it were applied always and forever as the sentence in such a case.

I believe that God, in giving to Moses His law, used the penalty of death for certain crimes for the express purpose of it being used in all cases and being a sure and certain penalty. Today, it's really more the rule that if one commits the general run of the mill murder, that they're likely to just have to give up some freedom...if they are caught. So you throw the dice. If you get caught, you do the time and become an even more hardened criminal. You'll very likely commit even worse crimes after being released. With a sure and certain death penalty, while I don't even consider that it would stop all murders, I believe it would, at the very least, give one who is contemplating such an act, pause. Further, as a penalty for the taking of someone's life, I think it is not only in agreement with God's law, but a fair and just penalty just for the betterment of society as a whole.

Just consider, if there were a penalty for divorce that both the man and the woman be made sterile by vasectomy or tubal ligation procedure; and if that penalty were applied for certain, how many less divorces we might have. I'm speaking of a situation where as soon as a judge would announce a marriage dissolved that the two parties would immediately, within 30 minutes of leaving the courtroom, be transferred by authorities to a clinic to perform the procedure. Not some plan whereby the parties are told to get the procedure and then left up to themselves to go out and get it done. I rather imagine that the divorce rate would drop precipitously. I believe that if death for murder were the 99% sure penalty, there'd also be a lot fewer murders. I also believe that's what God intended in giving Moses the law for His people, Israel.

God bless,
Ted

I agree with you that there are enough verses in the Bible which support death penalty in O.T.. but not a single verse in N.T.

Death penalty in O.T. was not limited to “ murder” only. There are 28 sins in O.T. which had death penalty, including “A child who curse his father”.

In N.T. it says “ penalty for sin is death” yet we are saved by grace. The Punishment of “ death penalty” has been abolished the moment Christ paid the ultimate price.

miamited · Jan 31, 2022

Tiberius Lee said:
In N.T. it says “ penalty for sin is death” yet we are saved by grace. The Punishment of “ death penalty” has been abolished the moment Christ paid the ultimate price.

So, how many people do you know, that still since the new covenant, haven't experienced death by the time they reached 70-100 years of age?

God bless,
Ted

Tiberius Lee · Jan 31, 2022

miamited said:
So, how many people do you know, that still since the new covenant, haven't experienced death by the time they reached 70-100 years of age?

God bless,
Ted

N.T. teaching doesn’t approve death penalty. As a matter of fact, when it comes to these kind of Mosaic law , Christ contradict them most often. “Sermon on the mount” a clear contradiction of Mosaic law. Mosaic law was given because of the “hardness of heart “ , but Christ show a better way of living , suppressing the righteousness that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law – you can’t “suppress the righteousness” of the Pharisees if you just love your neighbor and hate your enemy, you can’t “suppress the righteousness” of the Pharisees if you just take “ eye for an eye.

If capital punishment from O.T. is Biblical today then “stone to death” a son is also Biblical today because the son course his father. Or going to work on Sunday is also a capital punishment.

bèlla · Jan 31, 2022

Moral compass is a topic where I veer more conservatively. There are lines I wouldn’t cross irrespective of belief. I don’t require faith to consider them wrong or repugnant. It’s not my makeup.

You need a certain headspace to take another’s life and a hardened heart. I’m not addressing self-defense in that statement. I’m speaking of those who delight in hurting others or are willing to do so. There’s something wrong with them.

You can’t have a peaceful society with things running amok. It incites citizens to take the law in their hands when justice isn’t served. We can’t foist our problems onto others. Or punish them for hardships they had no part in.

You don’t have a right to take someone’s life because yours was unpleasant. That can’t go unchecked. Death is a consequence for breaking the law. The alternative is simple. Don’t do it.

Sometimes the consequences of our choices are painful. If we only get a slap on the wrist we never learn. Depriving another of a child, spouse, or parent is unacceptable. Killing is a choice. If you’ve chosen that path you can’t complain if the punishment is death. Choose wisely.

toocoolblue · Jan 31, 2022

Tiberius Lee said:
Capital punishment is un-Biblical. End of the story!

Tiberius Lee said:
I agree with you that there are enough verses in the Bible which support death penalty in O.T.. but not a single verse in N.T.

In Acts 5:1-10, Ananias and Sapphira are both given the death penalty by God.

But keep in mind, death isn't death to God. It's more like a "time for a meeting".

The Bible is full of examples where God has executed the death penalty.
Sometimes for sins, sometimes against people who were innocent. But those innocent people just got a head start on eternity in heaven. There is no problem with God deciding when to make this judgement.

The problem comes about when we try to make this decision. Personally, I'm not really sure I'm qualified to make this call and only hope that I never have to.

miamited · Jan 31, 2022

Hi @Tiberius Lee

Tiberius Lee said:
N.T. teaching doesn’t approve death penalty.

Neither does the new covenant disapprove of the death penalty. In fact, there were two criminals put to death along side of Jesus and he spoke not a word against the penalty being right or wrong.

Tiberius Lee said:
As a matter of fact, when it comes to these kind of Mosaic law , Christ contradict them most often. “Sermon on the mount” a clear contradiction of Mosaic law. Mosaic law was given because of the “hardness of heart “ , but Christ show a better way of living , suppressing the righteousness that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law – you can’t “suppress the righteousness” of the Pharisees if you just love your neighbor and hate your enemy, you can’t “suppress the righteousness” of the Pharisees if you just take “ eye for an eye.

That would be a misunderstanding of Jesus and his life and purpose. The Sermon on the Mount was absolutely not any contradiction of Mosaic law. What you are doing is applying sweeping generalizations of something Jesus said about one issue of marriage and applying that single comment about that specific issue to all of the law. Only the law concerning marriage was given because of man's hardness of heart, and that didn't effect the Mosaic law or God's law concerning marriage. Jesus was clear that the cost of divorce, even though Moses had given a 'way out', was still anathema to God and caused all parties to then become adulterers.

Actually, Jesus said that one must 'surpass' not 'supress' the righteousness of the Pharisees. The law of 'eye for eye' was a law to limit the recompense for a crime. The Jews had begun to use that as an excuse to do harm to others who had harmed them. Often going far beyond whatever loss the punisher might have suffered.

Trust me or not. Jesus kept the Mosaic law, but not as most Jews did. Jesus was also clear that by the time of his arrival on the scene the Scribes, Pharisees and Teachers of the law had adulterated the Mosaic law. This is why he was often in trouble with the Jewish leaders of his day. At one time Jesus asked them why they broke the commands of God:
Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

“ ‘These people honor me with their lips,

but their hearts are far from me.

They worship me in vain;

their teachings are merely human rules.’ ”

I'd encourage you to be more studious in your Scripture reading. It is my practice to always spend a few moments in prayer seeking and pleading that God give me understanding of the things that I read through His Holy Spirit.

Neither God, nor Jesus, ever condemned the practice of a government to exact the death penalty for crimes.

God bless,
Ted

Tiberius Lee · Feb 1, 2022

miamited said:
Hi @Tiberius Lee

Neither does the new covenant disapprove of the death penalty. In fact, there were two criminals put to death along side of Jesus and he spoke not a word against the penalty being right or wrong.

That would be a misunderstanding of Jesus and his life and purpose. The Sermon on the Mount was absolutely not any contradiction of Mosaic law. What you are doing is applying sweeping generalizations of something Jesus said about one issue of marriage and applying that single comment about that specific issue to all of the law. Only the law concerning marriage was given because of man's hardness of heart, and that didn't effect the Mosaic law or God's law concerning marriage. Jesus was clear that the cost of divorce, even though Moses had given a 'way out', was still anathema to God and caused all parties to then become adulterers.

Actually, Jesus said that one must 'surpass' not 'supress' the righteousness of the Pharisees. The law of 'eye for eye' was a law to limit the recompense for a crime. The Jews had begun to use that as an excuse to do harm to others who had harmed them. Often going far beyond whatever loss the punisher might have suffered.

Trust me or not. Jesus kept the Mosaic law, but not as most Jews did. Jesus was also clear that by the time of his arrival on the scene the Scribes, Pharisees and Teachers of the law had adulterated the Mosaic law. This is why he was often in trouble with the Jewish leaders of his day. At one time Jesus asked them why they broke the commands of God:
Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

“ ‘These people honor me with their lips,

but their hearts are far from me.

They worship me in vain;

their teachings are merely human rules.’ ”

I'd encourage you to be more studious in your Scripture reading. It is my practice to always spend a few moments in prayer seeking and pleading that God give me understanding of the things that I read through His Holy Spirit.

Neither God, nor Jesus, ever condemned the practice of a government to exact the death penalty for crimes.

God bless,
Ted

Do you think we should implement “Capital Punishment” for people who curse their parents or who break sabbath? It’s in the Bible that these people should be put to death?

Off course you would say no. so why death penalty ok for violent crime and not for cursing your parents?

Jesus never condemn slavery or racism, does that mean slavery and racism is ok?

miamited · Feb 1, 2022

Hi @Tiberius Lee

Tiberius Lee said:
Do you think we should implement “Capital Punishment” for people who curse their parents or who break sabbath? It’s in the Bible that these people should be put to death?

No. Not particularly. However, that doesn't change the fact, yes it's a fact, that the Scriptures support the death penalty.

Tiberius Lee said:
Jesus never condemn slavery or racism, does that mean slavery and racism is ok?

Nope. Jesus never condemned slavery or racism. But just because something isn't specifically mentioned in the Scriptures doesn't mean that it is ipso facto good or bad.

Listen, go with what you feel, but I don't think you can support an argument that the death penalty is bad because God says so. We certainly, in our humanness, may condemn it because it causes us to be uncomfortable, and that's ok. But we can't make the claim that it is against the will of God.

God bless,
Ted

toocoolblue · Feb 1, 2022

Tiberius Lee said:
Do you think we should implement “Capital Punishment” for people who curse their parents or who break sabbath? It’s in the Bible that these people should be put to death?

Off course you would say no. so why death penalty ok for violent crime and not for cursing your parents?

Jesus never condemn slavery or racism, does that mean slavery and racism is ok?

I guess it's pointless to keep doing this, but here are more mistakes you've made about what is in the bible.

Lets' start with the last thing you said, - Jesus never condemn slavery or racism. I'm pretty sure that "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." covers that. After all, I doubt anyone would want to be a slave or a victim of racism.

Then you say, - Do you think we should implement “Capital Punishment” for people who curse their parents or who break sabbath? It’s in the Bible that these people should be put to death?

No it's not. It's more accurate to say something like that was in the bible but then was taken out.

What did Jesus say about stoning when he was dealing with a sinner? He said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Since none of us are without sin, we never have to worry about stoning anyone again.

Before Jesus came, all the people had was the law given by Moses and the prophets. This was how they obtained salvation. But then Jesus came and fulfilled the law, he took the place of all that. He is our sacrifice, he is the way, the truth and the life. There is no other way but him. The legalism of Moses time is gone. So, no longer are we required to make a sacrifice or worry about following 600+ commandments, many under the penalty of death.

And the New Testament does support the death penalty. It's in Acts 5:1-10, Ananias and Sapphira were both given the death penalty by God.

Thoughts on the death penalty?

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