Neighbor

All Glory To God said:

Sorry bro, I'm not trying to pressure you into writing shorter messages but that was a very long response to a couple of simply questions. And I still don't know if you believe if some will go to Hell or not.

Click to expand...

The short answer is that yes, some will go to hell.
The long answer is that I hope and pray that no one will.

-CryptoLutheran

Tellyontellyon said:

Jesus said we must love our neighbor as ourselves. Then he gives a parable about the good Samaritan. I take this to mean that your neighbor is everybody.

Am I understanding this correctly?
Is there anybody who shouldn't be considered a neighbor?

Click to expand...

I would say that everyone is your neighbor, even your enemies. That's just my thought process.

Getting back to what you first wrote. I want to test this, so you said:

ViaCrucis said:

No. I'm saying I should love all people, making no distinction. In the same way that God loves all of us sinners in Jesus Christ, without distinction.

Click to expand...

The highligh is mine. So God loves all the same. No difference between the saved and the condemnded?

ViaCrucis said:

The short answer is that yes, some will go to hell.

Click to expand...

So what about these people here? God loved them, as he loved all the same. Now he has thrown them into Hell? I see two possible options with this God-model you have presented to us: 1) God changed he view toward them and he doesn't love them as he did before as they are in hell and awaiting their just punishment. 2) He still loves them and will love during their eternal punishment. Whilst his saints enjoy communion with with him in his Kingdom.


So what do think about this?

ViaCrucis said:

The long answer is that I hope and pray that no one will.

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

Bless you.

All Glory To God said:

Getting back to what you first wrote. I want to test this, so you said:



The highligh is mine. So God loves all the same. No difference between the saved and the condemnded?

Click to expand...

It was in our condemnation that God loved us and chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:3-14, Romans 5:8).

It's God's love for the condemned that He loves us and saves us. So yeah, of course God loves all sinners the same. The love with which He loves you, a condemned sinner, and sent Christ into the world to save you, is the same love He has for every one else.

So yes, God loves all sinners the same; all sinners are included in God's agape which He has for the world, and out of which He intends to save, redeem, and ultimately heal the world. That's why we look forward to the resurrection of the body and the renewal of all creation in the Age to Come.

So what about these people here? God loved them, as he loved all the same.

Click to expand...

Absolutely.

Now he has thrown them into Hell?

Click to expand...

Nope.

I see two possible options with this God-model you have presented to us: 1) God changed he view toward them and he doesn't love them now as they are in hell and awaiting their just punishment. 2) He still loves them and will love during their eternal punishment. Whilst his saints enjoy communion with with him in his Kingdom.

Click to expand...

Of course God still loves them. God doesn't stop loving them.

So what do think about this?

Click to expand...

I think you are trying to imply that what I'm saying is unbiblical.

Bless you.

Click to expand...

The Lord be with you.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Nope.

Click to expand...

LOL they were given the keys and just walked in.

ViaCrucis said:

Of course God still loves them. God doesn't stop loving them.

Click to expand...

So God loves people while they are in the lake of fire, whatever that is. God is loving people in their torments, that he ultimately put them in at their judgement day?

ViaCrucis said:

I think you are trying to imply that what I'm saying is unbiblical.

Click to expand...

And I will do if you are consistent with your own theology that you have presented here.

All Glory To God said:

LOL they were given the keys and just walked in.

Click to expand...

In a sense, I suppose that would be an accurate way of putting it. I like how C.S. Lewis phrases it by describing the doors of hell as being locked from the inside.

So God loves people while they are in the lake of fire, whatever that is.

Click to expand...

Yes. From the perspective of many of the ancient fathers, the fires of "hell" is really nothing other than the fire of God's love and presence. As we read in the Epistle to the Hebrews that, "our God is a consuming fire".

After all, the Psalmist says, "Where can I go to flee from Your presence" ... "If I make my bed in she'ol, You are there" (Psalms 139:7-8). And St. John makes it abundantly clear that "God is love" (1 John 4:8).

The perception that hell is the deprivation of God and His love is an opinion and interpretation that, in light of Holy Scripture and the historic Christian faith, I don't believe holds substantive support.

God is loving people in their torments, that he ultimately put them in at their judgement day?

Click to expand...

Why would you believe that God torments anyone? Here again I find the wisdom of the fathers very beneficial and edifying: St. Isaac describes the torments of hell as the "scourge of love" and describes that torment as the torment of "bitter remorse" or "bitter regret". It is the torment brought on by a "scourge" of love: God's love. The love of God means the beatific life for the redeemed, because we have been brought into full communion with God through grace, we have peace with God in Jesus, etc.

Hell, on the other hand, is not the deprivation of that love, but a very different experience of it. The one "in hell" suffers the deep remorse of their own sin against love, at least in the way that St. Isaac addresses the matter.

And I will do if you are consistent with your own theology that you have presented here.

Click to expand...

If you want to debate theology, then we should be doing that over in General Theology.

Though I am happy to answer any questions to further clarify anything I've said here.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Yes. From the perspective of many of the ancient fathers, the fires of "hell" is really nothing other than the fire of God's love and presence. As we read in the Epistle to the Hebrews that, "our God is a consuming fire".

Click to expand...

What you are doing is making out that Gods wrath is a picnic. It doesn't really matter what cs Lewis or church fathers said but what really matters is the scripture. And you must realize God has a place and punishment after the day of Judgement.

ViaCrucis said:

The perception that hell is the deprivation of God and His love is an opinion and interpretation that, in light of Holy Scripture and the historic Christian faith, I don't believe holds substantive support.

Click to expand...

The lake of fire, after the day of judgement is by design a punisment. I do not think this is love to send people to this place but I do not think they ever had agape love to begin with so nothing has changed for them or in God.

The idea of God loving people while he chose to send them to the lake of fire and still loving them in the lake of fire in their suffering and misery is unethical in most peoples views.

ViaCrucis said:

Why would you believe that God torments anyone?

Click to expand...

God doesn't torment people but they (Luke 16:24) are in torments as Jesus seems to indicate from the parable.

ViaCrucis said:

Here again I find the wisdom of the fathers very beneficial and edifying: St. Isaac describes the torments of hell as the "scourge of love" and describes that torment as the torment of "bitter remorse" or "bitter regret". It is the torment brought on by a "scourge" of love: God's love. The love of God means the beatific life for the redeemed, because we have been brought into full communion with God through grace, we have peace with God in Jesus, etc.

Hell, on the other hand, is not the deprivation of that love, but a very different experience of it. The one "in hell" suffers the deep remorse of their own sin against love, at least in the way that St. Isaac addresses the matter.

Click to expand...

If what you're saying is true and all people are loved in heaven and lake of fire, what is the point of lake of fire and heaven? If there's no difference, why different destinations? And if there is a difference, why is that?

ViaCrucis said:

If you want to debate theology, then we should be doing that over in General Theology.

Though I am happy to answer any questions to further clarify anything I've said here.

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

Well what happened was you tried to appeal to ontological grounds to support your cause and I am challenging you on this. I don't expect you to conceded but just answering questions will show the problem I am alluding to.

Tellyontellyon said:

Jesus said we must love our neighbor as ourselves. Then he gives a parable about the good Samaritan. I take this to mean that your neighbor is everybody.

Am I understanding this correctly?
Is there anybody who shouldn't be considered a neighbor?

Click to expand...

A neighbour in the Bible is somebody within reach of your action. In the old days it was literally your neighbour. Today, it’s the whole world.

James_Lai said:

A neighbour in the Bible is somebody within reach of your action. In the old days it was literally your neighbour. Today, it’s the whole world.

Click to expand...

Interesting. So if there are no Christians around you like in countries where the faith is banned and cannot assemble, by Islam or communism (for example), that means your community is Islamic or communist?

That's what I hear you say with ''within reach of your action'' so the environment around us really determines who your community is and not a shared belief in the same true God.

All Glory To God said:

Interesting. So if there are no Christians around you like in countries where the faith is banned and cannot assemble, by Islam or communism (for example), that means your community is Islamic or communist?

That's what I hear you say with ''within reach of your action'' so the environment around us really determines who your community is and not a shared belief in the same true God.

Click to expand...

I think the concept of neighbour in the Bible has to do with love.

All Glory To God said:

What you are doing is making out that Gods wrath is a picnic. It doesn't really matter what cs Lewis or church fathers said but what really matters is the scripture. And you must realize God has a place and punishment after the day of Judgement.

Click to expand...

The wrath of God is something else. The wrath of God is the reality that we are sinners held in condemnation under the Law. Hence the Apostle writes in Romans 1:18.

For Lutherans the proper way of understanding God's wrath is by rightly making the distinction between Law and Gospel, "rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15), and thus making the proper distinction between God in His hiddenness (Deus Absconditus) and God in His personal revelation (Deus Revelatus). Man when beholding God hidden behind the Law, in glory, is God as we behold Him at the Mountain in Sinai, where He says to Moses, "No one can see Me and live" (Exodus 33:20). And the people are terrified by the peals of thundering sounds, begging for a mediator to go up to the mountain and speak to them on God's behalf (see Exodus chs 19-20, emphasis on Exodus 20:18-21)

Wrath is the reality that we stand condemned under the Law, it is what we as sinners behold when we look to God through the Law--because in the Law we behold our failure, our sin. The Law becomes the mirror exposing our works as evil to ourselves (Romans 7:7-15).

The judgment and conclusion of this present and fallen age is still part of this condemnation--the rolling up of scroll, as it were, (Isaiah 34:4, Revelation 6:14), because the Day is coming when we must all stand and give account (Romans 14:12), and all human works will be exposed (1 Corinthians 3:13), etc. That's God's wrath in the Day of future Judgment when the Lord returns to judge the living and the dead (2 Timothy 4:1).

The lake of fire, after the day of judgement is by design a punisment. I do not think this is love to send people to this place but I do not think they ever had agape love to begin with so nothing has changed for them or in God.

Click to expand...

It's the reality of future judgment, it's called "second death" by St. John. We are told that there is a fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels, (Matthew 25:41)--not prepared for human beings. Nevertheless, as we see in the same place (Matthew 25:41) those who deny the least of these are fundamentally colluding against their own humanity and with death, and the "destination" of such things is the same as what has been prepared for the devil.

But I simply refuse to believe in a God who denies Himself, which He would be doing if He did not love even those who will despise Him to the bitter end. We have a God who loves His enemies (Romans 5:10), so when He commands that we love our enemies, that we feed them, clothe them, give them drink (Matthew 5:44, Romans 12:20). For He has declared, "I, the LORD, do not change" (Malachi 3:6), and St. James says that in Him is no shadow of turning (James 1:17), and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews says that Jesus Christ "is the same yesterday, today, and forever" (Hebrews 13:8).

I believe in a faithful God, for He says His name is Faithful and True (Revelation 19:11). He has been the faithful God since before the foundation of the world, He who created all things and declared what He made "exceedingly good" is not going to turn His back on what He has made. That's what the Bible is about: The faithfulness of God to His creation, the faithfulness of God to rescue and redeem His creation.

For the Apostle reminds us that creation itself groans under the tyranny of death, longing for the day when God sets all things right, when the dead are raised, "the redemption of our bodies" (Romans 8:18-25).

The reality of "hell" is not because God is like some kind of Zeus sitting on Mt. Olympus who will consign us to a good or bad afterlife. The reality of hell is not Pagan like that. Rather the reality of hell is the sober fact that we human beings, though made in God's image, collude against God's image, collude against our own humanity, through sin. We transgress God's Law which was intended to bring life, and so the Law becomes death for us on account of sin.

Hell isn't about God being mad and wanting to hurt people. Hell is about people being mad and the tragedy that we would rather imprison ourselves up in a tower and hide away rather than live. God isn't our enemy, but we are enemies against God. This is made abundantly obvious (besides Scripture plainly saying so) in the Incarnation, and the reality that the Son of God was put to death by wicked men. We crucified the Son of God.

God comes down in peace.
We make war against Him.

God comes down in love.
We despise Him and spit in His face.

God comes down to give us life.
We crucify Him.

But just like the Patriarch Joseph, what was intended with evil was for good: For the Lord taught us that the Christ must suffer and give His life as a ransom. For in truth through these things God saves the world.

God came down in peace, we waged war against Him, and He won--not with violence, not with power, not with eloquent wisdom: He conquered the world in His weakness and foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18-31). His love, grace, mercy, and salvation--and in so doing has put to death the principalities and the powers, has defeated death itself, having risen from the dead He has defeated sin, death, hell, and the devil.

The idea of God loving people while he chose to send them to the lake of fire and still loving them in the lake of fire in their suffering and misery is unethical in most peoples views.

Click to expand...

And if I thought that God was actively punishing sinners in hell, and that the point of hell is to punish human beings then I could possibly agree that it's at the very least ethically confusing.

But that's not my position. My position is fairly straightforward I think. I believe the Scriptures are abundantly clear about God's love and grace and the power of the Holy Gospel. Where Scripture does become more ambiguous is the topic of the final destination of the wicked, as the Scriptures employ graphic, imaginitive, figurative language to describe this. In much the same way that what we hear about the Age to Come is sometimes imaginitive and uses big bold language--for example describing the heavenly Jerusalem as a gigantic city descending from heaven, with foundations of precious gems.

Indeed, on this point, I find the language we are given in the penultimate vision of the Apocalypse truly fascinating, for St. John writes the following,

"Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." - Revelation 22:1-2

It is lines like this, that the leaves are for the healing of the nations, one can almost imagine a river flowing through the new city, with leaves being carried down river. Though one should not try and speculate about things we cannot know for they are not told to us. Only that, here is an example of where it almost feels like the Bible offers us a hopeful elipses.

We see similar things, for example, when the Apostle says that in the end God will be "all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28). One might wonder how is God "all in all" with a whole segment of creation excluded from Him; but again, I dare not speculate.

When I read the Scriptures, when I look at the historic teaching of the Church, both East and West. I see that there is actually very little attempts to turn ideas about hell and the ultimate state of things into formal dogma. Eschatology is rarely dogmatized except when dealing with very elementary Christian doctrine: Christ's Parousia, the resurrection of the body, everlasting life, the Age to Come, future judgment, etc.

God doesn't torment people but they (Luke 16:24) are in torments as Jesus seems to indicate from the parable.

Click to expand...

Which would be in keeping with what I've already said, both in this post and previous posts.

If what you're saying is true and all people are loved in heaven and lake of fire, what is the point of lake of fire and heaven? If there's no difference, why different destinations? And if there is a difference, why is that?

Click to expand...

This is an interesting question, though not for the obvious reason.

Firstly, the point of God being faithful to His creation and setting all creation to rights is because God is faithful. Our salvation and being brought into communion with God and passing through judgment into life everlasting in the Age to Come is because God wants to rescue us.

God loves us, that's why.

I don't know what point, if any, there is for "hell". In a sense it's a bit like asking what was the point for the prodigal son to demand his inheritance early, and then go squander it and then live eating pig slop and living in mud with swine.

I think the sober tragedy of the reality of hell isn't that there is an ultimate point to hell--but that there may be no point in it at all. Why squander our humanity, why do we expend so much energy being selfish, and hateful, and prejudicial? Why do our societies expend resources that could go to providing for the health, welfare, and well-being of the least of these, to those who truly need it--but that's not how human civilization generally works. It's sin, sin obviously. But when we look at what our disordered passions bring into the world, we should realize that "hell" is less about a punishment for our sin, but rather the natural and organic fruition of our sin. If we choose ourselves, choose ourselves right to the bitter end, then we get exactly what we wanted. We wanted to be alone, so we have shut ourselves up alone, right into deepest darkest hell, miserable, spiteful, hateful, angry, vicious. Gnashing our teeth, seething. That's not life, that's something worse than even death. One could even call it "second death".

Well what happened was you tried to appeal to ontological grounds to support your cause and I am challenging you on this. I don't expect you to conceded but just answering questions will show the problem I am alluding to.

Click to expand...

Do you think you could clarify?

-CryptoLutheran

Tellyontellyon said:

I am a Buddhist... does that mean that I am not the neighbor of a Christian?
If I was robbed and beaten and bleeding by the side of the road... would you walk by? Are you not to love me? Is that what Jesus really meant when he selected a Samaritan as an example rather than a polytheist or atheist?
But if only Christians are to be considered neighbors then something I thought rather good about Christianity has suddenly turned into something bad.

Luke 10:27 Greek Text Analysis

Click to expand...

Reformed theology is kind of a special animal in Christianity. And while not all Reformed Christians and Calvinists are equally extreme (some forms of extreme Calvinism get really bad). What is fundamental to the Reformed theological core is generally summed up by the acrostic TULIP, which comes from the Synod of Dordrecht in the 17th century.

TULIP consists of:

Total Depravity (or Total Inability): Man's disordered passions, or concupiscence, renders the whole human person unable to positively respond to God or live truly righteously in accordance with God's commandments.

Unconditional Election: God's choosing to save is not based upon anything conditional on ourselves--it isn't based on whether or not we would one day accept Him, it isn't based on how good we are. God's election, or predestining us for salvation, is unconditional--a choice He made regardless of anything we would or wouldn't do.

Limited Atonement: Christ only died for the Elect, those whom God chose and predestined unconditionally.

Irresistible Grace: When one of the elect hears the Gospel, he cannot resist but rather is converted and receives faith.

Perseverance of the Saints: Seeing all the above, it therefore follows according to TULIP, that the elect, the chosen saints of God, cannot fall away but will by God's sovereign will and decree persevere in faith until the end.

The implication (and frequently this is explicit) is that since God chose the Elect to salvation, then He did not choose the rest. Since Christ only died for the Elect, then Christ did not die for the rest.

The objection that then is raised, by non-Reformed (such as myself) is often then why did God make everyone else? And the Reformed response is to quote Romans 9:22 and surrounding verses.

In other words, while not all, many Reformed Christians argue that God does not love everyone, but rather God only truly loves the elect. Some will go so far as to argue that God actually hates the non-elect.

This kind of theological foundation is generally what is going to provide the foundation for trying to argue that our neighbor means something other than everyone. Such as only referring to fellow believers.

However, with all that said, I want to remind again that this is all very unique to the Reformed tradition of Protestantism.

It's not what Lutherans, Catholics, Orthodox, Methodists, and all other non-Reformed Christians believe. The orthodox and historic Christian teaching is God's universal love for all, out of which He sent Christ to die for all, because God wants to save all.

Reformed theology, on these points, stands at odds with the rest of Christendom.

-CryptoLutheran

Tellyontellyon said:

Is love the same thing as salvation then?

Click to expand...

God saves us because He loves us, but they aren't the same thing. Salvation is better understood as God's love in action to rescue, redeem, and heal the world.

I must say... this belief in predestination is the most soulless, hopeless and evil thing I've come across in Christianity.

If there is a God that made the universe in such a way then he is powerful indeed, but not worthy of worship.

Click to expand...

Lutherans also believe in predestination, but our understanding is very different. A lot of those differences are quite stark, and others are more nuanced (but those nuances are incredibly important).

Out of a desire to not be combative with others on this board, all I'll really say about the Reformed position is that there are a number of reasons why I'm not Reformed, and this is one of them.

-CryptoLutheran

I'm not sure what happened here. People were talking on a personal level and you went into preaching mode writing a sermon, based on what your denomination propagates.

ViaCrucis said:

This is an interesting question, though not for the obvious reason.

Firstly, the point of God being faithful to His creation and setting all creation to rights is because God is faithful. Our salvation and being brought into communion with God and passing through judgment into life everlasting in the Age to Come is because God wants to rescue us.

God loves us, that's why.

Click to expand...

I am not going to ask any more questions, because I don't want another ungodly sermon posted to me. Just point out in your entire sermon there was no mention of the Holiness of God. That's how I know your vision of God is false. How can you and your denomination that you are spreaking on belhalf of claim to know God if you are stripping God of his chief characteristic.

When (1 Peter 1:16) God says ''because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy” you have really missed who God is to begin with if he tells you and it is replaced by something else. Like an ''all loving'' God. That's idolatry. Gods love flows out from his holiness. And the heavenly servants around him who bear witness (Isaiah 6:3 Revelation 4:8) of his person confirm this fact. He is Holy, your God is not Holy from what you described here. Therefore we might come to the logical conclusion that your God is not the God of the Bible.

God cannot (psalm 5:4) love sin. He is duty bound by his holy nature to be separated from sin. And if a person is not made good by the propitiation of Christ they will have to bear (John 3:36) the penalty themself. God will not let sin go unpunished (exodus 34:7) so the idea that there is no punishment after judgment for people without Christ is a false Gospel. And if they are punished, that is not Biblical love as God promises to never forsake or abandon his people. And if they are not longer loved but they were loved before, this God has changed and God doesn't change. So this creates problems in this unholy God you are worshiping.

ViaCrucis said:

I don't know what point, if any, there is for "hell". In a sense it's a bit like asking what was the point for the prodigal son to demand his inheritance early, and then go squander it and then live eating pig slop and living in mud with swine.


-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

Worship the true Holy God and you will understand better.

Tellyontellyon said:

I am a Buddhist... does that mean that I am not the neighbor of a Christian?

Click to expand...

Well that's what we are trying to tease out.

Tellyontellyon said:

If I was robbed and beaten and bleeding by the side of the road... would you walk by?

Click to expand...

I would help.

Tellyontellyon said:

Are you not to love me?

Click to expand...

How do you define love? As a fellow human person? Yes, no question.

Tellyontellyon said:

Is that what Jesus really meant when he selected a Samaritan as an example rather than a polytheist or atheist?

Click to expand...

They all professed to believe in the same God. This is what most Pastors won't teach or are not learned enough to teach, because they are following cultural Christianity. As opposed to Biblical Christianity.

Tellyontellyon said:

But if only Christians are to be considered neighbors then something I thought rather good about Christianity has suddenly turned into something bad.

Luke 10:27 Greek Text Analysis

Click to expand...

There are not Just benefits to being a Christian but obligations as well. Will you come to my church and worship the same God as me?

Tellyontellyon said:

Is love the same thing as salvation then?

I must say... this belief in predestination is the most soulless, hopeless and evil thing I've come across in Christianity.

If there is a God that made the universe in such a way then he is powerful indeed, but not worthy of worship.

Click to expand...

I see Love as code for Unity and Sharing. In math terms, it’s the arithmetic operation of Addition expressed by the “+” sign

James_Lai said:

I think the concept of neighbour in the Bible has to do with love.

Click to expand...

I would agree.