A few questions for Protestants

topher694

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Sorry my friend, but if you were to read my OP again, you will see that I never mentioned the Catholic Church at all. Come to think of it, I haven't mentioned the Catholic Church at all in this thread, that's all on you and your non-Catholic posters. So, you accusing me of being disingenuous, and trying to set some sort of trap or looking for a "gotcha" answer is disingenuous of itself. All I asked is..... for a Christian, what is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth? Is it the Bible? Yes or no?

Have a Blessed day!
You just reinforced my point. No that wasn't mentioned in the OP. That's the whole point, that's the deception. Your clear suggestion, hinted in the OP and more so in subsequent posts was that the pillar and ground is the RCC, but you didn't say that straight up so it could be discussed on its face. The fact that it wasn't mentioned, but was clearly intended on exactly why it's disingenuous.

All the Pharisees asked Jesus was: the law of Moses says this woman should be stoned. "What do you say?" But their intent went far beyond a simple question. Their intent was to trap him using a simple question... same thing here. Deny all you want, your own words here back me up.
 
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Fidelibus

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Ahem. . . . . . I answered your question in post #34 long before your post #63. If you don't like my answer then say so. My answer remains the same - not at all. You requested a yes or no answer and I provided one.


Ahem, :) But sorry 7b's, but you did not! All you did was chime into a post that was directed to poster 'ChristianForCats.' In doing so, all you did was to give you fallible opinion about how Bible is the truth revealed by God to mankind, and that it needs nothing to uphold or support it, even as God needs nothing to support or uphold Him.

And you then went on to give your fallible opinion on how "anyone who thinks that Truth requires support or a pillar, especially in the form of a certain religious bureaucracy, is oddly deluded", accusing St Paul, the author of 1 Tim.3:15 of being ...... "oddly deluded" for penning in said Scripture passage,

"But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth." (1 Tim.3:15)

My question was a simple question that required a simple yes or no answer, something you failed to do, even in your post #34. Nice try though! ;)

For a Christian, what is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth? Is it the Bible? Yes or no?"

Now, when do you intend to post on my thread?

Like I said before, I just might give it a look-see when you genuinely answer the above questions. ;)

Have a Blessed day!
 
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Fidelibus

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You just reinforced my point. No that wasn't mentioned in the OP. That's the whole point, that's the deception. Your clear suggestion, hinted in the OP and more so in subsequent posts was that the pillar and ground is the RCC, but you didn't say that straight up so it could be discussed on its face. The fact that it wasn't mentioned, but was clearly intended on exactly why it's disingenuous.

You know, you really should read what you post before you submit it. For what you are falsely accusing me of here, would require you to know the on-goings in my mind, in other words, to know and read the operation of my mind... through the computer no less. Wow!! For you to be able to achieve this feat, it would require you to be "omnipotent." Do you consider yourself to have some sort of unlimited power; able to do anything?

All the Pharisees asked Jesus was: the law of Moses says this woman should be stoned. "What do you say?" But their intent went far beyond a simple question. Their intent was to trap him using a simple question... same thing here. Deny all you want, your own words here back me up.

Again..... omnipotent?

Anyway, thanks for giving your fallible opinion! ;)

Have a Blessed Day!
 
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topher694

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You know, you really should read what you post before you submit it. For what you are falsely accusing me of here, would require you to know the on-goings in my mind, in other words, to know and read the operation of my mind... through the computer no less. Wow!! For you to be able to achieve this feat, it would require you to be "omnipotent." Do you consider yourself to have some sort of unlimited power; able to do anything?



Again..... omnipotent?

Anyway, thanks for giving your fallible opinion! ;)

Have a Blessed Day!
Could I me mistaken? Sure. But it does not take omnipotence to observe and discern. Your actions here speak loudly and based on my experience what I've outlined is exactly what has happened and you have provided nothing to contradict it other than, "nu-uh, that ain't true"
 
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Carl Emerson

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So Carl, as we read in the passage you posted, we see the Bible is not the pillar and ground of the truth for the Christian, the church is.

What is meant by the church.

The Greek word is EKKLESIA meaning called out ones.

How do we interpret that? Is it one particular group which is socially identifiable or is it referring to those who are called out by God, and indwelled by the Holy Spirit of Truth.

John tells us that those with the Holy Spirit's anointing do not need to ask about the Truth as Truth indwells them and they know it. (1 John 2:20-27) This then is the promise to all believers irrespective of social grouping.

We are warned to rightly divide the body of Christ (1 Cor 11:29) this is a serious issue. Before taking the bread and wine we must have a humble attitude regarding our own salvation and the salvation of others. To limit Gods Grace to one social grouping rather than seeing His work in hearts as He wills is critical.

See how Jesus responded to this issue when His disciples complained about it...

Mark 9
38 John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. 40 For the one who is not against us is for us. 41 For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward.

That should be our attitude.

The church then is all who believe, not a social grouping - just as Jesus said.
 
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Albion

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So, you are saying these defined doctrines from the various Protestant denominations, considered to be truth, are excluded from error and are infallible? Interesting!
No. I didn't say anything of the sort.

What I said was that it's not the case, with Protestants, that everyone can believe whatever he chooses to believe. The various Protestant churches have formal Statements of Belief that the membership is expected to hold to--just like your own Roman Catholic Church does.

Not so sure about that Albion. You well know, in Protestant theology...there is no one who has the authority to decide a dispute between Christians or the many different Protestant denominations.
That's also false.

So, you are saying all the (human) Pastors preaching from all the various Protestant/ non-denominational churches or sect's pulpits are fallible and could be teaching error to their congregations in matters of Scripture interpretation or faith and morals.
"are fallible and could be teaching error to their congregations...."
That's right. Exactly as is also true of every Catholic priest preaching from the pulpits of those churches. As I have said several times before, human beings are fallible.

That being said Albion, let me ask you as a Protestant,
Are you, in fact, a Protestant? ;)

where you said in your post #17, that no human is infallible, right? So, my question to you is...If the infallible Holy Spirit is guiding individual Christians in their interpretation of Scripture, then why do you claim that there are no Christians who can infallibly interpret Scripture?
What makes you think that the Holy Spirit guarantees infallibility to any human reader?
 
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SamInNi

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Under the Protestant/Sola Scriptura (the Bible alone) theological system, is it your belief, and would you agree, there exists no person or no institution that can infallibly decide what is true and what is false for Christians when it comes to matters of faith and/or morals?

If you happen to answer yes to this question, my next question would be.... under this theological system, would you agree there is no sure way you could have absolute assurance of anything you believe being true? In other words, there is no way of knowing the truth?

Yet, Jesus says, "Know the truth and the truth will set make you free." (John 8:32)

So, let me leave you with this last question: For a Christian, what is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth? Is it the Bible? Yes or no?

Have a Blessed day!
The immediate context of the Bible text you quoted is:

"So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, 'If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free'" (John 8:31, 32, ESV).

Also, in this exchange Jesus says, "Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God" (v. 47).

So, those who have by faith found genuine forgiveness in Christ and are abiding in Him (remaining and continuing in Him), will be able to understand and appreciate God's Word. The opposite is true: those who are not His and therefore can't abide in Him won't know (comprehend) His truth.

Christ's word is His teaching: "Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting" (2nd John 1:9, 10, ESV).

The most ancient source of accurate Christian teaching is all of Scripture, and the New Testament in particular. This is God-breathed revelation. The "pillar and ground of the truth" is the true Church. Each local assembly is a vital part of that Church and is therefore fully defined by God's Word alone, the teaching of Christ.

See also: The Power of Tradition
 
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Valletta

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Or rules that priests are required to remain single and celibate.

Every single Catholic tradition is 100% man-made and based on a very long document they wrote with no guidance from God, but every Catholic denies that and insists all of them are Biblical.
Absolute drivel. Please do not misrepresent the Catholic faith.
 
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Fidelibus

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Could I me mistaken? Sure.

Which I can assure you, in this case, you surely are.

But it does not take omnipotence to observe and discern.

You can observe and discern all you want, but falsely accusing is a whole different story. (see your above quote)

Your actions here speak loudly and based on my experience what I've outlined is exactly what has happened, and you have provided nothing to contradict it other than, "nu-uh, that ain't true"

Your experience tells you loudly and exactly? (Again, see your quote at the top of this page.) Bit of a suggestion, if I may. You might want to pick up your bible and go to the Old Testament and turn to Ex. 20:16; Deut.19:16-19; and Proverbs 19:5-9.

You know, on my way to Mass this morning, I got to thinking why your blatant animosity towards my thread and your false accusations against me. I prayed on it before Mass started, asking our Lord why someone would have so much frustration to go as far to bear false witness against another Christian.

Well, on my way home topher, something dawned on me. As we have both agreed, in my OP I never spoke of the Catholic Church whatsoever. However, as this thread progressed, you and a few other non-Catholics did. So, in the last few questions of my OP, did I know the answer to my questions? Sure, I did. I knew that the bible "is not," for a Christian, is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth, because it say's so in Scripture. It's there for everyone to see.

As for the first questions I asked in my OP, I had no idea the answers I would get from the different Protestant, non-Catholic posters that may have responded, due to that fact of the hundreds if not thousands Protestant and non-Denominational churches and sects, with just as many beliefs, doctrines and practices. As we well know, unity is not a forte when it comes to Protestant and non-Denominational beliefs and practices. We Catholics see the dis-unity all the time right here on this Christian Forum.

Now, just for the sake of argument topher, let's say you, and some of your other non-Catholic posters on this thread didn't know I was a Catholic, or even knew I was "not a Catholic" when I started this thread. Would your responses have been the same? Would you have accused me of starting some sort of "gotcha" game? Or trying to set people up to prove my point? Or being just out right disingenuous? I think we both know the answer to that!

So, my friend, you go right ahead with your false accusations against myself, for I my friend, have a clear conscience. As for yourself, you're going to have to answer to God all by yourself. So, I suggest that you may want to ask yourself, are you 100% positive I am guilty of all the accusations you are accusing me of?

Have a Blessed Day!
 
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topher694

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Which I can assure you, in this case, you surely are.



You can observe and discern all you want, but falsely accusing is a whole different story. (see your above quote)



Your experience tells you loudly and exactly? (Again, see your quote at the top of this page.) Bit of a suggestion, if I may. You might want to pick up your bible and go to the Old Testament and turn to Ex. 20:16; Deut.19:16-19; and Proverbs 19:5-9.

You know, on my way to Mass this morning, I got to thinking why your blatant animosity towards my thread and your false accusations against me. I prayed on it before Mass started, asking our Lord why someone would have so much frustration to go as far to bear false witness against another Christian.

Well, on my way home topher, something dawned on me. As we have both agreed, in my OP I never spoke of the Catholic Church whatsoever. However, as this thread progressed, you and a few other non-Catholics did. So, in the last few questions of my OP, did I know the answer to my questions? Sure, I did. I knew that the bible "is not," for a Christian, is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth, because it say's so in Scripture. It's there for everyone to see.

As for the first questions I asked in my OP, I had no idea the answers I would get from the different Protestant, non-Catholic posters that may have responded, due to that fact of the hundreds if not thousands Protestant and non-Denominational churches and sects, with just as many beliefs, doctrines and practices. As we well know, unity is not a forte when it comes to Protestant and non-Denominational beliefs and practices. We Catholics see the dis-unity all the time right here on this Christian Forum.

Now, just for the sake of argument topher, let's say you, and some of your other non-Catholic posters on this thread didn't know I was a Catholic, or even knew I was "not a Catholic" when I started this thread. Would your responses have been the same? Would you have accused me of starting some sort of "gotcha" game? Or trying to set people up to prove my point? Or being just out right disingenuous? I think we both know the answer to that!

So, my friend, you go right ahead with your false accusations against myself, for I my friend, have a clear conscience. As for yourself, you're going to have to answer to God all by yourself. So, I suggest that you may want to ask yourself, are you 100% positive I am guilty of all the accusations you are accusing me of?

Have a Blessed Day!
Now you are playing the I'm a Catholic victim card? The answer is no, my answers would not have been any different. Who are you to think you would know how my answers would differ if I didn't know you were Catholic? Are you omnipotent?

This does nothing but convince me I'm correct in my assessment, if fact it strengthens the idea that I likely hit near the mark. You ask, would the responses be the same if people didn't know you were a catholic? Let me ask, why direct your title and this thread towards protestants? In doing that, from the beginning you were drawing the lines of separation and setting the tone. Why was that necessary? You straight up admitted to Carl that your contention all along is that the pillar and foundation is the church. You directed your questions towards sola scripture protestants with the clear intent of getting them to answer, "yes, the bible is the pillar and foundation of truth" so that you could gleefully point to 1 Tim 3:15 implying it is the church.

As I was preparing to preach my message at my church I was thinking about you, and how this exchange was so very much like the Pharisees trying to play scripture games and trip up Jesus. He saw through all that. So do I.

Anytime someone says something that doesn't line up with your narrative you dismissively respond by calling it their "fallible opinion". Tell us, is your opinion on all this fallible as well? Or do you just accuse others of that? "Fallible opinion" may sound nice and be technically true, but in a discussion situation lauding that over others, while not holding yourself to the same standard is insulting and belittling to those you are engaging with.

I grew up and was confirmed Catholic. Though I am no longer, I hold respect for the church and have openly and rigorously come to the defense of catholic bashing, both here and in person. However, I have also come across, here and in person, Catholics who do the bashing of non-catholics, and I will defend against that as well. I have had Catholics come into my church and try to pull exactly what you are trying to pull here... play a gotcha game. I've got news for you, you are not the first Catholic to think of this 1 Tim 3:15 thing. I've seen it before. It's not uncommon. It's wrong, but it's not uncommon. You tell me, do you find it enjoyable trying to tear down someone's belief system and prop up your own? If it were a true discussion you would not have to hide your views and direct people to answer your questions the way you intended them to answer. You could just share your view and ask if people agree or disagree and why.

As for the content itself, the mistake you are making is a common one. You are not looking at the full context of 1 Tim 3:15. Paul is not saying the church is the source of truth, he is addressing potential leadership in the church and describing qualifications and codes of conduct for those in leadership because the church is supposed to be the example of truth... the Greek words for pillar and foundation both mean "prop" or "support", not source... the church is supposed to uphold the truth that is why there are strict qualifications for leadership. None of that is possible without the true source of truth... the Spirit of Truth. The Spirit of Truth is IN us, but we don't always listen, leadership that meets Paul's criteria are more likely to listen to and follow the Spirit of Truth in them and thus be the example (ie pillar & foundation of truth) in the church.
 
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Albion

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You've said it well, topher. As we've witnessed, Catholics are groomed to have the attitude that the whole world is out to get them. At least the whole world of Protestants and non-religious people. And by "get them" is meant deliberately misrepresenting what the Catholic Church does and teaches.

Then for the topping on that cake, it is often said that the people who deliberately do this--misrepresent the Church--don't know anything about the Church (?) and also that they defame the Church precisely because they KNOW it's the one true church!

Say what??

It's interesting to observe that "non-Catholics" who don't have churches but only "Ecclesial Communities" almost never talk about "non-Methodists" or "non-Presbyterians" or "non-Lutherans." They just don't have such terms in their vocabularies.
 
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topher694

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You've said it well, topher. As we've witnessed, Catholics are groomed to have the attitude that the whole world is out to get them. At least the whole world of Protestants and non-religious people. And by "get them" is meant deliberately misrepresenting what the Catholic Church does and teaches.

Then for the topping on that cake, it is often said that the people who deliberately do this--misrepresent the Church--don't know anything about the Church (?) and also that they defame the Church precisely because they KNOW it's the one true church!

Say what??

It's interesting to observe that "non-Catholics" who don't have churches but only "Ecclesial Communities" almost never talk about "non-Methodists" or "non-Presbyterians" or "non-Lutherans." They just don't have such terms in their vocabularies.
I agree, the only thing I would add is not all Catholics follow that pattern, I know many who are very respectful of Protestants and are sincerly happy they are seeking the Lord. Heck, the priest who confirmed me and married my wife and I knows that I am now a non-catholic pastor and he is actually proud of me and treats me with respect, and I treat him the same.

That said it does seem to mostly be one or the other and when they follow the pattern you outlined it tends to get ugly, fast.
 
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Albion

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I agree, the only thing I would add is not all Catholics follow that pattern, I know many who are very respectful of Protestants and are sincerly happy they are seeking the Lord.
That is true, of course. We're speaking of something that is all too common among Catholics in general, but it's not what every last Catholic does.

Heck, the priest who confirmed me and married my wife and I knows that I am now a non-catholic pastor and he is actually proud of me and treats me with respect, and I treat him the same.
Sure. The people who grab onto the cliches and think them truisms seem most often to be recent converts to the Catholic Church. It's not as though they invent these claims and the jargon on their own, however.

That said it does seem to mostly be one or the other and when they follow the pattern you outlined it tends to get ugly, fast.
 
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BobRyan

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So, you are saying these defined doctrines from the various Protestant denominations, considered to be truth, are excluded from error and are infallible? Interesting!

Question already asked to you --

So let me ask you this - do you think Paul went around saying "I could still be wrong... after all I was wrong before and my former magisterium claimed it had infallible God-approved tradition and doctrine"??

Or do you think his experience with God and study of scripture left him with "no doubt" that God had ordained his current path as being "Truth" no matter that his own magesterium was saying his recent decision was the wrong one?

How was Paul's teaching tested to see IF it "was so"??

Act 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF..."
 
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Valletta

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You've said it well, topher. As we've witnessed, Catholics are groomed to have the attitude that the whole world is out to get them. At least the whole world of Protestants and non-religious people. And by "get them" is meant deliberately misrepresenting what the Catholic Church does and teaches.
Unfortunately there is a ton of misrepresentation about what Catholics supposedly believe posted on the Internet. I am a researcher, I started looking up the various claims. It turns out the vast majority of claims I researched turned out to be fabrications about what Catholics supposedly said or believed. Sadly there are people who continue to spread lies after corrected, and no doubt there are many honest people who are simply misinformed.
Clarify your statement, how many Catholics do you believe are "groomed" with the attitude that the "whole world is out to get them?" Give us a number and the facts upon which you base the number.
 
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BobRyan

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Unfortunately there is a ton of misrepresentation about what Catholics supposedly believe posted on the Internet. I am a researcher, I started looking up the various claims. It turns out the vast majority of claims I researched turned out to be fabrications about what Catholics supposedly said or believed. Sadly there are people who continue to spread lies after corrected, and no doubt there are many honest people who are simply misinformed.
Clarify your statement, how many Catholics do you believe are "groomed" with the attitude that the "whole world is out to get them?" Give us a number and the facts upon which you base the number.

1. Catholics teach that all TEN of the Ten commandments are included in the moral law of God - and are binding on all mankind - not just Christians - and I agree with them on that point.
2. Catholics believe in Purgatory as a doctrine of tradition - not defined/commanded in the Bible. I agree with them that it is of tradition and not found in the Bible - but I do not agree that it is sound doctrine.
 
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Albion

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Unfortunately there is a ton of misrepresentation about what Catholics supposedly believe posted on the Internet. I am a researcher, I started looking up the various claims. It turns out the vast majority of claims I researched turned out to be fabrications about what Catholics supposedly said or believed.
That's just brave talk since we've read many times right here what I referred to. But okay, go ahead and show us how your "research" showed that Catholics never or almost never say what we who were raised as Catholics and taught religion by Catholic teachers remember being taught to us. I'll wait.
 
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Fidelibus

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What is meant by the church.

The Greek word is EKKLESIA meaning called out ones.

How do we interpret that? Is it one particular group which is socially identifiable or is it referring to those who are called out by God, and indwelled by the Holy Spirit of Truth.

-Thank you, Carl. If you are asking in regard to my Catholic belief, I will try and show you the Catholic Church' beliefs and teachings from my Catholic Bible studies, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, (CCC) Early Church Fathers, (ECF) Vatican II documents, (LG) etc.

-As for 1 Tim. 3:15, let's also look at the verses prior and after vs. 15.

"I am writing you about these matters, although I hope to visit you soon. 15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. 16 Undeniably great is the mystery of devotion, who was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed to the Gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up in glory."

-My Catholic Bible studies say Paul still plans to join Timothy in Ephesus; however, he has confidence that, should he be delayed, Timothy will know what is expected of him as a member of God's "household" of the Church. So, in what two ways does Paul define the Church? Firstly: It is the "household ...of the living God."; and secondly: it is the "pillar and foundation of truth."

-The terms pillar and foundation refer to the structural support of a building. Christ established His Kingdom of the Church and set it firmly in place to support the edifice of the Gospel of truth (who Christ is) and salvation (what He does). The Holy Spirit secures the Church's future through the disciples and successors of the Apostles, like Paul and Timothy. The Holy Spirit enables them, beyond their limited human capacity, to preserve the apostolic faith from the distortion of false doctrine and corruption from forces outside and within. Paul also refers to the Apostles Peter (Kephas) and John Zebedee and St. James the Just, first bishop of Jerusalem, as pillars of the Church:

And when they recognized the grace bestowed upon me, James and Kephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas their right hands in partnership, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised (Gal 2:9).

But you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the Apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone (Eph 2:19b-20).

-In the CCC, it reads in Chapter 171,

The Church, "the pillar and bulwark of the truth", faithfully guards "the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints". She guards the memory of Christ's words; it is she who from generation-to-generation hands on the apostles' confession of faith. (1 Tim 3:15; Jude 3.) As a mother who teaches her children to speak and so to understand and communicate, the Church our Mother teaches us the language of faith in order to introduce us to the understanding and the life of faith.

-And in Chapter 768,

So that she can fulfill her mission, the Holy Spirit "bestows upon (the Church) varied hierarchic and charismatic gifts, and in this way directs her. (LG 4) Henceforward the Church, endowed with the gifts of her founder and faithfully observing his precepts of charity, humility and self-denial, receives the mission of proclaiming and establishing among all peoples the Kingdom of Christ and of God, and she is on earth the seed and the beginning of that kingdom. (LG 5)

-And Chapter 2031,

The moral life is spiritual worship. We "present [our] bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, (Rom 12:1) within the Body of Christ that we form and in communion with the offering of his Eucharist. In the liturgy and the celebration of the sacraments, prayer and teaching are conjoined with the grace of Christ to enlighten and nourish Christian activity. As does the whole of the Christian life, the moral life finds its source and summit in the Eucharistic sacrifice.

-Hope this helps.

John tells us that those with the Holy Spirit's anointing do not need to ask about the Truth as Truth indwells them and they know it. (1 John 2:20-27) This then is the promise to all believers irrespective of social grouping.

In the USCCB bible, it explains 1 Jn.2:20-29 as:

(2:20) The anointing that comes from the holy one: this anointing is in the Old Testament sense of receiving the Spirit of God. The holy one probably refers to Christ. True knowledge is the gift of the Spirit (cf. Is 11:2), and the function of the Spirit is to lead Christians to the truth (Jn 14:17, 26; 16:13).
(2:22–23) Certain Gnostics denied that the earthly Jesus was the Christ; to deny knowledge of the Son is to deny the Father, since only through the Son has God been fully revealed (Jn 1:18; 14:8–9).
(2:24) Continuity with the apostolic witness as proclaimed in the prologue is the safeguard of right belief.
(2:28–29) Our confidence at his judgment is based on the daily assurance of salvation. Our actions reflect our true relation to him.

-And from the CCC, Chapters 91-93:

91: All the faithful share in understanding and handing on revealed truth. They have received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, who instructs them53 and guides them into all truth. ( Jn 16:13)
92: "The whole body of the faithful. . . cannot err in matters of belief. This characteristic is shown in the supernatural appreciation of faith (sensus fidei) on the part of the whole people, when, from the bishops to the last of the faithful, they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals." (LG 12; cf. St. Augustine, De praed. sanct. 14,27:pL 44,980.)
93: "By this appreciation of the faith, aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority (Magisterium), . . . receives. . . the faith, once for all delivered to the saints. . . The People unfailingly adheres to this faith, penetrates it more deeply with right judgment, and applies it more fully in daily life." (LG 12; cf. Jude 3.)

We are warned to rightly divide the body of Christ (1 Cor 11:29) this is a serious issue. Before taking the bread and wine we must have a humble attitude regarding our own salvation and the salvation of others. To limit God's Grace to one social grouping rather than seeing His work in hearts as He wills is critical.
See how Jesus responded to this issue when His disciples complained about it...

-As for this passage Carl, Catholics believe for anyone who eats and drinks without discerning (diakrino) the body, eats and drinks judgment (krima) on himself. Also in this passage, there is a series of wordplays using the Greek words for judgment, krima (Strong's G2917) in 11:29, 34 and krino in the word diakrino (Strong's G1252) in 11:29 and 31. The Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature gives two primary meanings for the word diakrino in verses 29 and 31: to differentiate or judge (active voice), and to doubt or waver. (Middle or passive voice)

-We also see in 1 Cor. 11:29 and 31 (diakrino Strong's G1252), Paul uses diakrino in the active voice. Therefore, he refers to judging or distinguishing in a sense of evaluation. In verse 31, notice that self-examination is contrasted with God's judgment (also see Strong's G1252 in 1 Cor 6:5 and 14:29; see the related word diakrisis, "judicial estimation," Strong's G1253 in 1 Cor 12:10 and Heb 5:14). For a comparison of diakrisis with other verses, see the use of the same word in the Septuagint translation in Deuteronomy 8:5-6; Proverbs 3:12; and Revelation 3:19.

-What does Paul mean by discerning/recognizing or judging the "body"? There are two options for defining "body" in this verse: "Body" may indicate Christ's presence as in the body of Christ on the cross that is made present in the Eucharist. "Body" may indicate the body of believers as the Body of Christ. However, Paul is clearly referring to what is consumed in the Eucharist when he warns: without discerning [diakrino] the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. Therefore, he must be speaking of judgment associated with not discerning the Real Presence of Christ in what is consumed. Keep in mind that the Body of Christ is fully present in both species.

-Recognizing or discerning "the body" depends on recognizing two interrelated concepts applicable to the Eucharist and related to Christ's death on the cross: The reality of His Divine Presence in what was formerly bread and wine but is now transformed by the Holy Spirit into His Flesh and Blood as He promised in the Bread of Life Discourse (Jn 6:51-58) and announced at the Last Supper. The reality of Christ's atoning work in the gift of forgiveness of sin brought about by His unblemished sacrifice on the cross. It is the same sacrifice received by the community of believers to whom Christ gives Himself, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Eucharist.

- In verses 27-28, "Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup." The judgment for receiving the Eucharistic Body and Blood of Christ is also connected to how one comes to the Eucharistic table. The CCC, Chapter 1385, reads:

To respond to this invitation we must prepare ourselves for so great and so holy a moment. St. Paul urges us to examine our conscience: "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. (1 Cor 11:27-29.)

-Anyone conscious of a grave sin must receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before coming to communion. So, one might ask, "What is the necessary condition for receiving the Eucharist in addition to discerning the Body and Blood of Christ?

CCC, 1415, "Anyone who desires to receive Christ in Eucharistic communion must be in the state of grace. Anyone aware of having sinned mortally must not receive communion without having received absolution in the sacrament of penance.

-The believer must come in a state of grace, having done an examination of conscience and having determined that he/she is free of sin. If a person is conscious of a mortal sin, that person must receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before coming to communion.

Mark 9: 38 John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. 40 For the one who is not against us is for us. 41 For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward.

-John Zebedee, the "least" of the Apostles if Bible scholars are correct in identifying him as the youngest, has apparently not learned from the previous teaching. An unnamed man's success has evidently sparked the jealousy of the Apostles who were unsuccessful in casting the demon out of the boy earlier. So, we have to ask, what is Jesus' point in telling John and the others to let the man heal in His name? Well, for Catholics, the ministers of the Kingdom are not "exclusive" they are "inclusive." There is no room for jealousy in the spiritual warfare that is necessary to advance the Kingdom.

-This incident is reminiscent of Joshua's complaint to Moses that two men in the Israelite camp had not received Moses' anointing but were also filled with the spirit of God and prophesizing (Num 11:24-29). In that episode, Moses rebuked Joshua in the same way Jesus rebuked John, saying, "Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the people of the LORD were prophets! Would that the LORD might bestow his spirit on them all!"

-As Baptized Christians charged with continuing the good works of Jesus through the Kingdom of His Church, we must reject exclusivism in the apostolate—the idea that "good is not good unless I am the one doing it." The principal value and merit of good works lie in the demonstration of the love of God by which our good deeds are carried out. Saint Jose Maria Escriva wrote, "a little act, done for love, is worth so much" ("The Way," 814). And Saint Francis de Sales wrote: "Do you see that glass of water or that piece of bread which a holy soul gives to a poor person for God's sake; it is a small matter, God knows, and in human judgment hardly worthy of consideration. God notwithstanding, recompenses it, and forthwith gives for it some increase of charity" ("Treatise on the Love of God," book 2, chap. 2).

-God regards as worthy any act of services to others, however small, as a holy act of love in His name. Tolerance in working with others to advance Jesus' kingdom leads us to live a loving openness towards others. It reaches the depths of the heart and knows how to look forward to finding out what goodness is in every person. The Christian who is humble in doing good works is capable of maintaining an open and understanding attitude. Pride has no place in doing the work of Christ in Christian charity. Saint Jose Maria Escribe wrote that a lack of humility is like a curved mirror that distorts the reality of things, and he who is humble can be objective in being respectful toward others including the most flagrant sinner who is desperately in need of God's mercy whether they know it or not ("In Conversation with God," 21.3).

- And finally, The Virgin Mary teaches us how to be generous in working with others in charity. When her host ran out of wine at the wedding at Cana, she did not criticize the lack of wine but worked with the servants to facilitate her Son's miracle by finding a solution to the need. Humility in working with others to do the works of God changes the heart so that there is room in it for all men and women of all stations in life and all ethnic identities, even those who don't understand us or who fail to respond to our acts of love in the name of Jesus Christ.

The church then is all who believe, not a social grouping - just as Jesus said.

Thanks Carl, but could you reference this statement with Scripture please?

Also, sorry about the lengthy response/post, but I felt it was important that you see the Catholic view of these passages.

Have a Blessed day!
 
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Carl Emerson

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-Thank you, Carl. If you are asking in regard to my Catholic belief, I will try and show you the Catholic Church' beliefs and teachings from my Catholic Bible studies, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, (CCC) Early Church Fathers, (ECF) Vatican II documents, (LG) etc.

-As for 1 Tim. 3:15, let's also look at the verses prior and after vs. 15.



-My Catholic Bible studies say Paul still plans to join Timothy in Ephesus; however, he has confidence that, should he be delayed, Timothy will know what is expected of him as a member of God's "household" of the Church. So, in what two ways does Paul define the Church? Firstly: It is the "household ...of the living God."; and secondly: it is the "pillar and foundation of truth."

-The terms pillar and foundation refer to the structural support of a building. Christ established His Kingdom of the Church and set it firmly in place to support the edifice of the Gospel of truth (who Christ is) and salvation (what He does). The Holy Spirit secures the Church's future through the disciples and successors of the Apostles, like Paul and Timothy. The Holy Spirit enables them, beyond their limited human capacity, to preserve the apostolic faith from the distortion of false doctrine and corruption from forces outside and within. Paul also refers to the Apostles Peter (Kephas) and John Zebedee and St. James the Just, first bishop of Jerusalem, as pillars of the Church:





-In the CCC, it reads in Chapter 171,



-And in Chapter 768,



-And Chapter 2031,



-Hope this helps.



In the USCCB bible, it explains 1 Jn.2:20-29 as:



-And from the CCC, Chapters 91-93:





-As for this passage Carl, Catholics believe for anyone who eats and drinks without discerning (diakrino) the body, eats and drinks judgment (krima) on himself. Also in this passage, there is a series of wordplays using the Greek words for judgment, krima (Strong's G2917) in 11:29, 34 and krino in the word diakrino (Strong's G1252) in 11:29 and 31. The Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature gives two primary meanings for the word diakrino in verses 29 and 31: to differentiate or judge (active voice), and to doubt or waver. (Middle or passive voice)

-We also see in 1 Cor. 11:29 and 31 (diakrino Strong's G1252), Paul uses diakrino in the active voice. Therefore, he refers to judging or distinguishing in a sense of evaluation. In verse 31, notice that self-examination is contrasted with God's judgment (also see Strong's G1252 in 1 Cor 6:5 and 14:29; see the related word diakrisis, "judicial estimation," Strong's G1253 in 1 Cor 12:10 and Heb 5:14). For a comparison of diakrisis with other verses, see the use of the same word in the Septuagint translation in Deuteronomy 8:5-6; Proverbs 3:12; and Revelation 3:19.

-What does Paul mean by discerning/recognizing or judging the "body"? There are two options for defining "body" in this verse: "Body" may indicate Christ's presence as in the body of Christ on the cross that is made present in the Eucharist. "Body" may indicate the body of believers as the Body of Christ. However, Paul is clearly referring to what is consumed in the Eucharist when he warns: without discerning [diakrino] the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. Therefore, he must be speaking of judgment associated with not discerning the Real Presence of Christ in what is consumed. Keep in mind that the Body of Christ is fully present in both species.

-Recognizing or discerning "the body" depends on recognizing two interrelated concepts applicable to the Eucharist and related to Christ's death on the cross: The reality of His Divine Presence in what was formerly bread and wine but is now transformed by the Holy Spirit into His Flesh and Blood as He promised in the Bread of Life Discourse (Jn 6:51-58) and announced at the Last Supper. The reality of Christ's atoning work in the gift of forgiveness of sin brought about by His unblemished sacrifice on the cross. It is the same sacrifice received by the community of believers to whom Christ gives Himself, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Eucharist.

- In verses 27-28, "Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup." The judgment for receiving the Eucharistic Body and Blood of Christ is also connected to how one comes to the Eucharistic table. The CCC, Chapter 1385, reads:



-Anyone conscious of a grave sin must receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before coming to communion. So, one might ask, "What is the necessary condition for receiving the Eucharist in addition to discerning the Body and Blood of Christ?



-The believer must come in a state of grace, having done an examination of conscience and having determined that he/she is free of sin. If a person is conscious of a mortal sin, that person must receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before coming to communion.



-John Zebedee, the "least" of the Apostles if Bible scholars are correct in identifying him as the youngest, has apparently not learned from the previous teaching. An unnamed man's success has evidently sparked the jealousy of the Apostles who were unsuccessful in casting the demon out of the boy earlier. So, we have to ask, what is Jesus' point in telling John and the others to let the man heal in His name? Well, for Catholics, the ministers of the Kingdom are not "exclusive" they are "inclusive." There is no room for jealousy in the spiritual warfare that is necessary to advance the Kingdom.

-This incident is reminiscent of Joshua's complaint to Moses that two men in the Israelite camp had not received Moses' anointing but were also filled with the spirit of God and prophesizing (Num 11:24-29). In that episode, Moses rebuked Joshua in the same way Jesus rebuked John, saying, "Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the people of the LORD were prophets! Would that the LORD might bestow his spirit on them all!"

-As Baptized Christians charged with continuing the good works of Jesus through the Kingdom of His Church, we must reject exclusivism in the apostolate—the idea that "good is not good unless I am the one doing it." The principal value and merit of good works lie in the demonstration of the love of God by which our good deeds are carried out. Saint Jose Maria Escriva wrote, "a little act, done for love, is worth so much" ("The Way," 814). And Saint Francis de Sales wrote: "Do you see that glass of water or that piece of bread which a holy soul gives to a poor person for God's sake; it is a small matter, God knows, and in human judgment hardly worthy of consideration. God notwithstanding, recompenses it, and forthwith gives for it some increase of charity" ("Treatise on the Love of God," book 2, chap. 2).

-God regards as worthy any act of services to others, however small, as a holy act of love in His name. Tolerance in working with others to advance Jesus' kingdom leads us to live a loving openness towards others. It reaches the depths of the heart and knows how to look forward to finding out what goodness is in every person. The Christian who is humble in doing good works is capable of maintaining an open and understanding attitude. Pride has no place in doing the work of Christ in Christian charity. Saint Jose Maria Escribe wrote that a lack of humility is like a curved mirror that distorts the reality of things, and he who is humble can be objective in being respectful toward others including the most flagrant sinner who is desperately in need of God's mercy whether they know it or not ("In Conversation with God," 21.3).

- And finally, The Virgin Mary teaches us how to be generous in working with others in charity. When her host ran out of wine at the wedding at Cana, she did not criticize the lack of wine but worked with the servants to facilitate her Son's miracle by finding a solution to the need. Humility in working with others to do the works of God changes the heart so that there is room in it for all men and women of all stations in life and all ethnic identities, even those who don't understand us or who fail to respond to our acts of love in the name of Jesus Christ.



Thanks Carl, but could you reference this statement with Scripture please?

Also, sorry about the lengthy response/post, but I felt it was important that you see the Catholic view of these passages.

Have a Blessed day!

Yes I was referring back to Mark 9 - Christs servant was not part of the established social group and this didn't phase Jesus.
 
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Valletta

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That's just brave talk since we've read many times right here what I referred to. But okay, go ahead and show us how your "research" showed that Catholics never or almost never say what we who were raised as Catholics and taught religion by Catholic teachers remember being taught to us. I'll wait.
So you're not going to answer my question? I asked: Clarify your statement, how many Catholics do you believe are "groomed" with the attitude that the "whole world is out to get them?" Give us a number and the facts upon which you base the number.
-------------------------
I am glad to provide you an example of the kind of anti-Catholic misinformation that gets posted. Back in October honestal said:
“The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth.” {Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Cities Petrus Bertanous Chapter XXVII: 218}

I replied (see #28, Man of Lawlessness, Oct. 26, 2021) with the following:

Please, by brother, do not spread fabrications about Catholics. I assure you, Catholics don't think the Pope is God. Pope Pius V never said such a thing, that such a lie survives to this day shows the strength of Satan, the great deceiver. Pope Pius V, after saying he was a SERVANT of God, then spoke of God:

"Pius Bishop, servant of the servants of God, in lasting memory of the matter.

He that reigneth on high, to whom is given all power in heaven and earth, has committed one holy Catholic and apostolic Church, outside of which there is no salvation, to one alone upon earth, namely to Peter, the first of the apostles, and to Peter’s successor, the pope of Rome, to be by him governed in fullness of power. . ." Full text at: Regnans in Excelsis - Papal Encyclicals
 
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