A few questions for Protestants

timothyu

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Yes, the Kingdom is where Jesus reigns.
And unlike human religious institutions, follows the will and governance of the Father, not of man with a vested interest in their organization. Scripture is not free to stray from that fact (unless man rewrites it) but institutions stray constantly to self justify their own existence.
Put a Christian on the spot about their beliefs and they sadly will be more likely to defend their denomination that the Gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus said He came to teach.
 
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topher694

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Yes, his silent response to my post #55 was telling...
Yeah, my post as well. If it doesn't fit the narrative of the (in his mind) clever trap that he laid then it's tried again or ignored. The entire game is based his (fallible) interpretation of one scripture (you don't build sound doctrine on one scripture) and at least 3 logical fallacies by my count. It's a "gotcha" game that is very reminiscent of the one the Pharisees tried to pull on Jesus with the woman caught in the act of adultery, which ironically, I will be preaching on tonight.
 
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BobRyan

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Okay, I see what your getting at. Yes I do agree with everything in the Bible, but again,I do not agree with your personal and fallible interpretation of Scripture, which could be in error.....Right?

We both agree that we do not agree with certain views each of us holds nor do we agree with certain teachings between our respective denominations. I don't agree with your denomination on some things and you don't agree with mine on some things.

You and I probably also agree that neither one of us is infallible and what we "Think" is correct today - we could find tomorrow that we no longer hold that view.

Saul at one time "thought" he was doing right to persecute Christians. Then on the road to Damascus he had a very strong direct encounter with God and 'changed' his view.

So let me ask you this - do you think Paul went around saying "I could still be wrong... after all I was wrong before and my former magisterium claimed it had infallible God-approved tradition and doctrine"??

Or do you think his experience with God and study of scripture left him with "no doubt" that God had ordained his current path as being "Truth" no matter that his own magesterium was saying his recent decision was the wrong one?
 
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timothyu

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(fallible) interpretation
Yes there are always two ways people will look at scripture, with an understanding of the will of God over the will of man, or more likely through the eyes of the flesh seeking to justify flesh made institutions. Nothing has changed since the Jews did the same thing in Jesus' time, seeking physical gain over spiritual. Claiming to represent spiritual is not the same as actually living it. Even these institutions harbour both kind of human, but those in charge seek to keep the institution, not God's Kingdom, alive.
 
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tall73

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Okay, so if you do not believe for a Christian, the Bible "is not" the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth, what do you believe is? According to the Bible?

Thank you

Wouldn't it be more efficient for you to just start a thread based on the text, rather than go for the gotcha approach?


1Ti 3:14 I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these things to you so that,
1Ti 3:15 if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.
1Ti 3:16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

 
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timothyu

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how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God
Not an institution but a way of life taken by those who follow the will of the Father and not man, open to all humans.
Even Paul, who many give more importance than Jesus, taught the Gospel of the Kingdom (mentioned three times in scripture), but of course his epistles were more convenient to earthly religion builders and any writings of his teachings of the Gospel of the Kingdom which must have existed, seem to have conveniently been misplaced.
 
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topher694

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Yes there are always two ways people will look at scripture, with an understanding of the will of God over the will of man, or more likely through the eyes of the flesh seeking to justify flesh made institutions. Nothing has changed since the Jews did the same thing in Jesus' time, seeking physical gain over spiritual. Claiming to represent spiritual is not the same as actually living it. Even these institutions harbour both kind of human, but those in charge seek to keep the institution, not God's Kingdom, alive.
Agreed. And if your starting point is a "gotcha" game, you've already missed the truth.
 
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Eloy Craft

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What sort of Bible did Noah have? ;What sort of Bible did Abraham have? What sort of bureaucratic religious institution did either of them have to dictate to them their faith and morals?
There was by the time Jesus was born. He dealt with it. Take a look. This was the authority from God in the hands of wicked men.

Matt 23

23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do.
 
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Fidelibus

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There you go...
I will save you the trouble.

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.


Thank you, Carl for sharing this writing for us from St. Paul, and answering the question that so many had trouble finding. That being, according to Scripture the bible "is not" for a Christian, the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth. As we can clearly see from this passage, for a Christian "the Church" is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth.

The problem with leaning on that verse is that one would then have to say that the truth didn't exist before the Church was born.

The question was "For a Christian, what is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth? Is it the Bible? Yes or no?" There was no Christian Church before Jesus established it. (Mt 16:17 ; Mt. 5:13-16; Mt. 16:17; Mt. 28:18; Luke 10:16; Mt 16:19; Mt.18:18; Mt 28:19.)

So Carl, as we read in the passage you posted, we see the Bible is not the pillar and ground of the truth for the Christian, the church is. Now as a Bible only believing Protestant, and under your Protestant theological system, is it your belief there exists no person or no earthly institution that can infallibly decide what is true and what is false when it comes to matters of faith and/or morals?

If you believe this to be true - that you can't trust them when it comes to your salvation, and that the only authority capable of being infallible is God - then how can the Word of God tell us that the church is the pillar and ground of the truth - the upholder and foundation of the truth? How?! And why?! If no earthly institution is capable of giving us the truth with 100% certainty - i.e., infallibly - then how could the church be referred to as the pillar of the truth? Or the ground of the truth?

Have a Blessed day!
 
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timothyu

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As we can clearly see from this passage, for a Christian "the Church" is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth.
Then all you need do is now settle on a definition of church. Is is a group of people living in 'the way' God commanded, caring for each other and not pursuing self interest, or is it an institution resembling human governments complete with all sorts of rules and rituals that more protect the church and control the congregants than follow the will of God ( while leaving that charitable part of it to the congregants to form their own societies within).
 
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timothyu

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is it your belief there exists no person or no earthly institution that can infallibly decide what is true and what is false when it comes to matters of faith and/or morals?
Absolutely! The original churches, in the same manner as those in the synagogues before them, hashed it out with each other using scripture as their foundation. They still do it today. Followers of Jesus are quite capable of doing that themselves even in home churhes as they did in the beginning, without turning it over to yet another human government official. Consider how Jesus told Peter it was not Peter that came up with the truth when He asked the disciples who the people said He was, but the Father. Yet some turn around and build a church calling Peter the rock instead of it being God's truth (which was the meaning of that solid foundation given by Jesus). Not of man, but of God. Man is no substitute for God but man and the Adversary like to believe so.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Thank you, Carl for sharing this writing for us from St. Paul, and answering the question that so many had trouble finding. That being, according to Scripture the bible "is not" for a Christian, the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth. As we can clearly see from this passage, for a Christian "the Church" is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth.

The question was "For a Christian, what is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth? Is it the Bible? Yes or no?" There was no Christian Church before Jesus established it. (Mt 16:17 ; Mt. 5:13-16; Mt. 16:17; Mt. 28:18; Luke 10:16; Mt 16:19; Mt.18:18; Mt 28:19.)

So Carl, as we read in the passage you posted, we see the Bible is not the pillar and ground of the truth for the Christian, the church is. Now as a Bible only believing Protestant, and under your Protestant theological system, is it your belief there exists no person or no earthly institution that can infallibly decide what is true and what is false when it comes to matters of faith and/or morals?

If you believe this to be true - that you can't trust them when it comes to your salvation, and that the only authority capable of being infallible is God - then how can the Word of God tell us that the church is the pillar and ground of the truth - the upholder and foundation of the truth? How?! And why?! If no earthly institution is capable of giving us the truth with 100% certainty - i.e., infallibly - then how could the church be referred to as the pillar of the truth? Or the ground of the truth?

Have a Blessed day!

So, when do you plan to start posting on my thread which addresses this very issue?
 
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Fidelibus

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No. From what you post, it is evident that you are operating from a stereotype that you have of Protestants generally...and you seemingly won't listen to anything that casts any part of that unfavorable stereotype into question.

Sorry, but I disagree.

No. That is definitely untrue. Unless you're a Unitarian (and even there it's questionable), any Protestant denomination you can point to has clearly defined doctrines that are considered to be the truth to the exclusion of error and that the members are expected to believe.

So, you are saying these defined doctrines from the various Protestant denominations, considered to be truth, are excluded from error and are infallible? Interesting!

Sounds pretty much the same as in your church, doesn't it?

Not so sure about that Albion. You well know, in Protestant theology...there is no one who has the authority to decide a dispute between Christians or the many different Protestant denominations. So, we have to ask, who, in Protestant theology, or among the various Protestant/ non-denominational churches or sects has the authority to definitively decide, in a binding manner, what is true and what is false when it comes to interpreting Scripture, deciding true or false doctrine and dogma, deciding what is or is not authentic Christian practice, and, even more basically, deciding which books are or are not inspired, inerrant Scripture? Who? Who has the authority to make such decisions and to bind on earth what is bound in Heaven?

No. Wrong.

Really? So, you are saying that any Protestant pastor or TV televangelist has more authority interpreting Scripture then you or me? Or are you saying "you" have more authority over me as a Catholic when it comes to biblical authority?

What I said was that no person ("human") has been endowed with infallibility.

So, you are saying all the (human) Pastors preaching from all the various Protestant/ non-denominational churches or sect's pulpits are fallible and could be teaching error to their congregations in matters of Scripture interpretation or faith and morals. Hmmm... pretty sure there are other Protestants reading this that just might disagree with you. ;) What would you say to them?

See posts 17 and 20.

Post #17.

No human is infallible.

Got it! ;)


Post #20.

That's right. People can be correct when it comes to making a decision, but that's not to say that they are endowed with a supernatural power of being infallible, i.e., being incapable of making a mistake.

Sure, I agree people can be correct making a decision on say, 2+2 = 4; 5-1 = 4 or that the sun will rise in the morning, etc. But as you said, "but that's not to say that they are endowed with a supernatural power of being infallible, i.e., being incapable of making a mistake" when it comes to preaching their congregations Scripture interpretation or teachings regarding faith and morals from the various Protestant/ non-denominational churches and sect's pulpits, right?

That being said Albion, let me ask you as a Protestant, where you said in your post #17, that no human is infallible, right? So, my question to you is...If the infallible Holy Spirit is guiding individual Christians in their interpretation of Scripture, then why do you claim that there are no Christians who can infallibly interpret Scripture? Wouldn't someone who is guided by the Holy Spirit in their interpretation of Scripture be infallible in their interpretation of Scripture?

Secondly, are there Christians who are being guided by the Holy Spirit in their interpretations of Scripture, who have belief systems that are not exactly the same? I.e., while they agree on the vast majority of Christian doctrine and practice, they nonetheless differ on at least one, possibly more, of the doctrinal beliefs they hold?

Have a Blessed day!
 
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Fidelibus

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Yeah, my post as well. If it doesn't fit the narrative of the (in his mind) clever trap that he laid then it's tried again or ignored. The entire game is based his (fallible) interpretation of one scripture (you don't build sound doctrine on one scripture) and at least 3 logical fallacies by my count. It's a "gotcha" game that is very reminiscent of the one the Pharisees tried to pull on Jesus with the woman caught in the act of adultery, which ironically, I will be preaching on tonight.

If I failed to address one of your post, it was unintentional and not as you sarcastically put it as ignored or a "clever trap or a "gotcha" game. Cool your jets man...... Sheesh!
 
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topher694

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Nope, you would be in error.
The thread speaks for itself. You tried to trick people with a "gotcha" that the RCC is the pillar and ground of the truth, straight up. It's obvious to everyone. Trying to set people up to prove your point rather than just making it plain IS disingenuous.
 
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Fidelibus

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I am sorry that your memory seems to be very short. I answered your quested in post #34 where I wrote, "Not at all." Do I need to be clearer than that for you?

You also seem to have this problem with other posters here who have flatly stated the same to you, yet you continue to badger them for an answer. Why is that?

By the way, I note that you have not get weighed in on my thread. I do look forward to seeing you there.

Ah-hem..... See my post #63, read it very carefully, and follow the instructions. Okay? ;)
 
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Fidelibus

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The thread speaks for itself. You tried to trick people with a "gotcha" that the RCC is the pillar and ground of the truth, straight up. It's obvious to everyone. Trying to set people up to prove your point rather than just making it plain IS disingenuous.

Sorry my friend, but if you were to read my OP again, you will see that I never mentioned the Catholic Church at all. Come to think of it, I haven't mentioned the Catholic Church at all in this thread, that's all on you and your non-Catholic posters. So, you accusing me of being disingenuous, and trying to set some sort of trap or looking for a "gotcha" answer is disingenuous of itself. All I asked is..... for a Christian, what is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth? Is it the Bible? Yes or no?

Have a Blessed day!
 
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bbbbbbb

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Ah-hem..... See my post #63, read it very carefully, and follow the instructions. Okay? ;)

Ahem. . . . . . I answered your question in post #34 long before your post #63. If you don't like my answer then say so. My answer remains the same - not at all. You requested a yes or no answer and I provided one.

Now, when do you intend to post on my thread?
 
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