Womens roles in the church

Paidiske said:

It's dead in the sense that a modern Greek speaker can't generally easily read and understand Koine, and learning Koine doesn't make you fluent in modern Greek. Yes, they're still related - I can pick out some words in a modern Greek text - but my point is that no one is today a native speaker of the language of the NT.

That said, there's been enough continuous scholarship in it for the rest of my post - that I am quite proficient in reading and translating it - to be true.

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So now the Greek is back to life? Interesting.

I doubt your credentials are sufficient to be good enough to be fluent in the Greek language from what you have told me but I won't call you a liar because I don't enough about this situation.

Strong in Him said:

No.
I used OT characters to illustrate my point.

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Another reason why I would not go into these churches, not very sincere.

You tried to remove a point I made by saying ''old testament'' so it doesn't count but have been making references to the old testament yourself. Is this not being a hypocrite? A ''character'' or person is from the scripture, so all you've done is taken one step back but this is still........scripture. Old testament scripture. And I don't have a problem with old testament because he is the same God.

Archivist said:

Serious discourse?

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Yes. Yes, I like my discourse to be very serious. Very serious.[/QUOTE]

Archivist said:

Now you are going from pictures to insults.

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Archivist said:

I have offered evidence to back my arguments. You have failed to address it.

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Well I know you have misapplied some scripture. Like the Galatians passage but we spoke about that came to a disagreement. And another member said the same thing to you. So beyond that what points do you think were not addressed?

All Glory To God said:

So now the Greek is back to life? Interesting.

I doubt your credentials are sufficient to be good enough to be fluent in the Greek language from what you have told me but I won't call you a liar because I don't enough about this situation.

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Sounds as though you're not listening.

The comment was that Koine Greek is a dead language. The NT, or Gospels, anyway, were written in Koine Greek; the Greek that was spoken in Jesus' time by the man in the street. It was a specific type of Greek - different from classical Greek.
It is also different from modern Greek; the Greek that is spoken, and learned, by people today. Just as children do not learn, and no one speaks, the English that Chaucer or Shakespeare wrote.
My sister-in-law is Greek orthodox; their wedding, and my nephews' christenings, were in Greek, and my nephews went to Greek school when they were younger. I doubt that any of that was Koine Greek, (though I may be wrong.)
No one said that the Greek language is defunct.

I think all student Ministers study Koine Greek - makes sense to study the language the NT was written in. Certainly the Ministers, and vicars, I have known did so, and sometimes told us the Greek words and phrases us in certain passages.
Why would you not believe someone who said that they had done this?

All Glory To God said:

Another reason why I would not go into these churches, not very sincere.

You tried to remove a point I made by saying ''old testament'' so it doesn't count but have been making references to the old testament yourself. Is this not being a hypocrite? A ''character'' or person is from the scripture, so all you've done is taken one step back but this is still........scripture. Old testament scripture. And I don't have a problem with old testament because he is the same God.

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No, I didn't try to remove your point. I explained what I meant, but will do so again.

You commented that a priest had to be without blemish to approach God.
I replied "that's OT".
I did not mean, "we don't need to accept/refer to/read anything that's in the OT because it IS the OT". If I HAD, then it would have been inconsistent/hypocritical to use OT characters to illustrate my point.
What I meant was that God's people, and priests, were given specific commands by God and laws they had to follow to show that they were holy. One of them was devotion to God alone, which was different from other countries who worshipped many - holy means "set apart" or "different". Some laws referred to refraining from certain kinds of food and another OT law was that those offering a sacrifice to God could not be lame, blind or disabled.

We, under the New Covenant, do not follow these OT laws.
Jesus makes us holy. The blood of Jesus - not animals - purifies us from sin and makes us clean. Yes, it is the same God and he still asks us to be holy - set apart and dedicated to him. But the way we do that, or become that, is through Jesus, not through the blood of animal sacrifices. Our Ministers do not offer sacrifices to God on our behalf, and it is not true that the leader of a church cannot be disabled.
I don't think that was the original comment anyway - I was giving examples to illustrate 1 Corinthians 1:27; that God chooses weak things of the world to shame the strong.

I was writing in a hurry and may have sounded more dismissive than I intended.

Strong in Him said:

Sounds as though you're not listening.

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Rather than wasting your time with well-thought-out and researched arguments, what you really need is this handy little item.

bekkilyn said:

Rather than wasting your time with well-thought-out and researched arguments, what you really need is this handy little item.

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I did not expect you play Battlefield 3.

Is the game suitable for females? ;-)

myst33 said:

I did not expect you play Battlefield 3.

Is the game suitable for females? ;-)

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I used to, but then I took an arrow to the knee.

Strong in Him said:

Sounds as though you're not listening.

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Don't patronise me. And why don't you let the person answer for themself. Unless you are their nominated spokesperson?

Strong in Him said:

No, I didn't try to remove your point. I explained what I meant, but will do so again.

You commented that a priest had to be without blemish to approach God.
I replied "that's OT".
I did not mean, "we don't need to accept/refer to/read anything that's in the OT because it IS the OT". If I HAD, then it would have been inconsistent/hypocritical to use OT characters to illustrate my point.
What I meant was that God's people, and priests, were given specific commands by God and laws they had to follow to show that they were holy. One of them was devotion to God alone, which was different from other countries who worshipped many - holy means "set apart" or "different". Some laws referred to refraining from certain kinds of food and another OT law was that those offering a sacrifice to God could not be lame, blind or disabled.

We, under the New Covenant, do not follow these OT laws.
Jesus makes us holy. The blood of Jesus - not animals - purifies us from sin and makes us clean. Yes, it is the same God and he still asks us to be holy - set apart and dedicated to him. But the way we do that, or become that, is through Jesus, not through the blood of animal sacrifices. Our Ministers do not offer sacrifices to God on our behalf, and it is not true that the leader of a church cannot be disabled.
I don't think that was the original comment anyway - I was giving examples to illustrate 1 Corinthians 1:27; that God chooses weak things of the world to shame the strong.

I was writing in a hurry and may have sounded more dismissive than I intended.

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For someone who talks about others not listening, you sure do like the sound of your own voice. I mean, you did reference old testament. No more to be said. Be consistent, either use it or never use it. Don't be a hypocrite and use some but reject others that don't fit your theology. And I know some are devastating to the modern ''churches''. Some old testament is no longer applicable but that does not make it any less God inspired. I know we are under a new covenant but that begs the question: Why are you using the old testament if you reject parts? As references, examples, ''characters'', events it is all grounded in old testament scripture. And if you are completely separated from the Old testament but accept the new testament, that would make you a polytheist. Multiply Gods from different time periods. The God of the Bible is one God. He does not allow women to be Pastors (1 Timothy 2:12) in his church. Some people defy this but they will be held accountable for that.

All Glory To God said:

For someone who talks about others not listening, you sure do like the sound of your own voice. I mean, you did reference old testament. No more to be said. Be consistent, either use it or never use it. Don't be a hypocrite and use some but reject others that don't fit your theology. And I know some are devastating to the modern ''churches''. Some old testament is no longer applicable but that does not make it any less God inspired. I know we are under a new covenant but that begs the question: Why are you using the old testament if you reject parts? As references, examples, ''characters'', events it is all grounded in old testament scripture. And if you are completely separated from the Old testament but accept the new testament, that would make you a polytheist. Multiply Gods from different time periods. The God of the Bible is one God. He does not allow women to be Pastors (1 Timothy 2:12) in his church. Some people defy this but they will be held accountable for that.

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You clearly don't want to discuss this in a civilised manner, so I wish you good day.

Using a character from the OT to illustrate a point is not the same as adopting, and upholding, OT law. Just because I don't do the latter does not mean I have to completely throw out the OT.

All Glory To God said:

Where does it state in 2 John she was ''doing pastoring activities''? If it's not there you can always tell the truth and say, it's not there. I'm simply holding you to account for your claim.

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As another commenter has already mentioned, the word "pastor" is used infrequently in scripture, and never with a gender designation for the one being that "pastor" or shepherd (though we know the title of "the Great Shepherd of the Sheep" was credited to Christ who was male). It was more of a function than a title. Those shepherding activities for the one in the ministry were a mark of their position.

For example, Paul told Timothy to "do the work of an evangelist; make full proof of thy ministry". By this, we understand that Timothy the minister was an evangelist, (among other things). If one is doing the "rejecting" or "receiving" of individuals into the fellowship of the assembly, this is a pastoral function of protecting the flock from harmful outside influences. Those who "do the work" of pastoring could be called pastors. And if the "elect lady" was doing this work of pastoring, she could be called a pastor, just as Timothy could be called an evangelist.

All Glory To God said:

God desires Holiness (1 Peter 1:16) in his people, because he is Holy.



Sure he has. Priests (Leviticus 21:16-24) had to be without blemish to approach God. So people where excluded from the offices back then as well. It's the same God. Jesus was a precious offering (1 Peter 1:19) without blemish. So where are you getting the idea that Gods standard is this feeble unfit miserable quality? He desires the best. He deserves the best! If he didn't he would accept human works salvation, rather than Christs perfect propitiation. I just think you don't understand scripture and ultimately God and follow your denominations teaching.




I don't begrudge women's salvation. The more people who are saved the better. Just don't pastor because you are sinning when you do that.

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Pastoring is sinning??? Where in the Bible does it say anything like that?

All Glory To God said:

Where does it state in 2 John she was ''doing pastoring activities''? If it's not there you can always tell the truth and say, it's not there. I'm simply holding you to account for your claim.

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Once again, the word "pastor" is infrequently used in scripture. Why would John state that she was "doing pastoring activities" when the word was rarely used?

All Glory To God said:

Yes. Yes, I like my discourse to be very serious. Very serious.

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Ah yes, so serious that you post emojis and cute pictures. I guess you can't get any more serious than that. Interesting that you complained in your post 982 that someone was being sarcastic towards you and more recently that someone was patronizing you, but you think that posting cutesy pictures and emojis in response to my posts is just fine.

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Another example of your idea of serious discussion.

Well I know you have misapplied some scripture. Like the Galatians passage but we spoke about that came to a disagreement. And another member said the same thing to you. So beyond that what points do you think were not addressed?

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I haven't misapplied anything. Sad that you think that your interpretation is absolute and that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

You haven't rebutted anything that I have posted in this thread. Nothing. You have done nothing but offer you interpretation.

Unlike you, I don't say that your interpretation is wrong, it just differs from my interpretation. You're the one who says that others are wrong, that female pastors are sinning. Very sad.

There is no doubt in my mind that women can serve in any position in the church, including being a pastor. Women have received the Holy Spirit (and accompanying gifts) the same as men. In my own life, I became a Christian when a female pastor prayed for my healing in the hospital -- and I was healed immediately by Jesus Christ. (And she wasn't struck dead for performing a man's role!)

People can rationalize otherwise but I know the truth about this issue.

pescador said:

There is no doubt in my mind that women can serve in any position in the church, including being a pastor. Women have received the Holy Spirit (and accompanying gifts) the same as men. In my own life, I became a Christian when a female pastor prayed for my healing in the hospital -- and I was healed immediately by Jesus Christ. (And she wasn't struck dead for performing a man's role!)

People can rationalize otherwise but I know the truth about this issue.

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What I really don't understand is the all too easy dismissal by some that "ordained women are sinning - why would God correct/prevent them?"

The question is; "why wouldn't he?"
When we become Christians we are born again, become new creations, 2 Corinthians 5:17, children of God, Romans 8:16-17 and the Holy Spirit is changing us into Jesus' image and likeness, 2 Corinthians 3:18.
Some Christian women are saying, "God called me to this ministry/to do this". They are preaching THE only Gospel, leading Bible studies, helping people to find faith, preparing people for baptism/marriage/confirmation, healing the sick and so on; if God DIDN'T call them to do any of that and they are lying/deceived, why would God honour/bless/heal/inspire the recipients of their ministry, and why would he NOT punish/stop them? He has promised to lead us in paths of righteousness for his name's sake. He has said that his sheep know his voice and follow him.
In the Bible, false prophets and people who sinned were not left to continue to lead God's people into sin and error, they were punished. Ananias and Sapphira were killed, false prophets were put to death, people who sinned were expelled from a church.
Why would God allow those who bear his name to preach his word and make false claims in his name?
How does the Spirit of truth, who leads us into all truth, live in those who are lying or deceived? Why would, and how could, he inspire them?
What is the fruit of the ministries of female ministers?

When Jesus' disciples saw a man driving out demons in the name of Jesus, they tried to stop him, Mark 9:38, because the man was not one of the 12.
What was Jesus' reply - "good job; we can't have the 'wrong' people doing that sort of thing"? No; he said "do not stop him. No one who does a miracle in my name can say anything bad about me. For whoever is not against us is for us," Mark 9:39.

And yet some claim that women preaching the Gospel/becoming ministers is Satanic - that may not have been said in this thread, but it has been said.

As Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, I am sure he would still say "do not stop them" to anyone who tried to suppress God's work.

It is the opposition to God's work being done that is satanic. When Peter made himself an obstacle, Jesus told him to "get thee behind me Satan." It is no different today.

bekkilyn said:

It is the opposition to God's work being done that is satanic. When Peter made himself an obstacle, Jesus told him to "get thee behind me Satan." It is no different today.

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I don't doubt that, for some, this issue is important - serious, even. And if they genuinely believe that it goes against Scripture then they should not go to a church which ordains women/lets them preach.

But I am equally sure that the devil is quite content for everyone to focus on this debate, and arguing rights and wrongs, instead of on the wider issue of preaching the Gospel.

Strong in Him said:

But I am equally sure that the devil is quite content for everyone to focus on this debate, and arguing rights and wrongs, instead of on the wider issue of preaching the Gospel.

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I would be very careful with such generalizations. We cannot preach the Gospel the whole day every day of our life. This would exclude any discussion about any topic ever or any free time activity.

We are not living in the times of the Roman Empire, when the gospel was totally unknown. We are living in kind of saturated "market", our nations know what the gospel is, its almost everywhere on Christmass, for example. Churches are on every street. And there are so many sources that whoever cares about spiritual things can get the gospel in 5 seconds of googling. What do you want to focus on, then?