Who are you?

doubtingmerle said:

Sorry you find this confusing.

You speak of your mind as multiple entities, including a soul and a spirit. And then you speak of "the Holy Spirit is in us". Then you post a picture of an angel and devil, apparently also speaking in there. So I can understand why the guy in your picture (you?) might be confused. How many are there in there? Your soul, your spirit, your brain, the Holy Spirit, the devil, and who knows who all else? There are enough people inside to have a party?

Our brains are complex things with multiple parallel processes, producing multiple thoughts that sometimes conflict with each other. But it is simpler to recognize and accept that, rather than postulate a host of entities inside creating thoughts. How can you possibly know which thought comes from which entity?

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i have not spoken of any entities ( a thing with distinct and independent existence ) outside of self ... this is your perception of what i speak to ...

our mind/soul is seeded both from within and from without, likened to eating from a tree bearing two fruits, which the mixture of both afford us a perception of self which is a lie ... it is this lie we see as the truth ... a lamb that speaks like a dragon ..

honey badger said:

God walking in us as us ... knowledge is what separates us from truth/self ... but even this not out of order ...

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Interesting however it does not explain the multitudes who do not walk with His Holy Spirit. What are they?
Additionally, it is written that the Father and the Son make their "Home" in the regenerated Christian. We are dwellings for His Holy Spirit not to be mistaken for by being the Dweller.
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with

myst33 said:

You probably mean spirit, not soul.

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No, I meant soul. You said (#25) the soul is what connects the spirit and the body, so I was asking how it makes that connection.

Nobody knows how it works, how spirit influences body and vice versa. For now, its a mystery. I kind of play with two concepts I got from G.W. Leibniz, buts its just me personally - monads (i.e. even physical things are spiritual in nature) and pre-established harmony.

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The idea that the non-physical can influence the physical implies a logical contradiction known as the 'problem of interaction' - it has never been satisfactorily resolved.

I don't know what 'spiritual in nature' means here, and 'monad' is used various different ways - what do you mean by 'monad'? Pre-established harmony of what, or between what things?

What you mean by 'spiritual' is what I'm trying discover here (for me, 'spiritual' is a way of describing a state of serenity or awe and wonder).

I do not think that a stone has a spirit. I think that primitive living creatures like bacterias and cells have spirit, but their body is so primitive that the spirit in them have also just primitive experiences. Body is a kind of a filter through which the spirit experience the physical world.

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So, the spirit is what has experiences and the spirit is in, but not part of, the body?

I do not know much about how unconciousness actually works on a deeper level, so I have no opinion right now.

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Unconsciousness is the lack of consciousness, i.e. the lack of awareness or experience, the lack of there being something it is like to be that creature. It occurs when certain parts of the brain stop communicating and brain activity becomes isolated and sporadic rather than global and synchronised.

[The unconscious is all the mental activity that occurs outside our conscious awareness; estimates vary, but it's at least 90% of all mental activity - from keeping our bodies functioning within safe limits to all the other functions we don't have to think much about to get us through the day (most of moving, most of talking, etc.).]

Maria Billingsley said:

Interesting however it does not explain the multitudes who do not walk with His Holy Spirit. What are they?
Additionally, it is written that the Father and the Son make their "Home" in the regenerated Christian.
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with

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what does not explain ?

honey badger said:

what does not explain ?

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I made some edits. Please read again.

Trusting in Him said:

... We descended from slime.

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You think so! Are you proud of your ancestry?

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Some people think pride is a sin...

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

No, I meant soul. You said (#25) the soul is what connects the spirit and the body, so I was asking how it makes that connection.

The idea that the non-physical can influence the physical implies a logical contradiction known as the 'problem of interaction' - it has never been satisfactorily resolved.

I don't know what 'spiritual in nature' means here, and 'monad' is used various different ways - what do you mean by 'monad'? Pre-established harmony of what, or between what things?

What you mean by 'spiritual' is what I'm trying discover here (for me, 'spiritual' is a way of describing a state of serenity or awe and wonder).

So, the spirit is what has experiences and the spirit is in, but not part of, the body?

Unconsciousness is the lack of consciousness, i.e. the lack of awareness or experience, the lack of there being something it is like to be that creature. It occurs when certain parts of the brain stop communicating and brain activity becomes isolated and sporadic rather than global and synchronised.

[The unconscious is all the mental activity that occurs outside our conscious awareness; estimates vary, but it's at least 90% of all mental activity - from keeping our bodies functioning within safe limits to all the other functions we don't have to think much about to get us through the day (most of moving, most of talking, etc.).]

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The problem of interaction occurs when a person just says things,
such as about "spirit", which have no detectable existence or content

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

Some people think pride is a sin...

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And Vanity, Satan's favourite sin.

Much too wonderful to be evolved from
other life forms, no, the whole universe was made
just for God's special ones.

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

No, I meant soul. You said (#25) the soul is what connects the spirit and the body, so I was asking how it makes that connection.

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Ok, my bad English. I meant something like that soul is a composition of spirit and body. I will edit it.

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

I don't know what 'spiritual in nature' means here, and 'monad' is used various different ways - what do you mean by 'monad'? Pre-established harmony of what, or between what things?

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Monad - elementary spiritual particle.
Monad (philosophy) - Wikipedia

Pre-established harmony - between mind and body, between spiritual and physical
Pre-established harmony - Wikipedia

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

What you mean by 'spiritual' is what I'm trying discover here (for me, 'spiritual' is a way of describing a state of serenity or awe and wonder).

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Non-physical, immaterial. In the similar meaning when we say that God is a spirit.

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

So, the spirit is what has experiences and the spirit is in, but not part of, the body?

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Experience is a spiritual thing, so yes, the spiritual part "has" it.

I do not know "where" the spirit is. Because its immaterial and non-physical, its not anywhere. Space does not apply.

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

Unconsciousness is the lack of consciousness, i.e. the lack of awareness or experience, the lack of there being something it is like to be that creature. It occurs when certain parts of the brain stop communicating and brain activity becomes isolated and sporadic rather than global and synchronised.

[The unconscious is all the mental activity that occurs outside our conscious awareness; estimates vary, but it's at least 90% of all mental activity - from keeping our bodies functioning within safe limits to all the other functions we don't have to think much about to get us through the day (most of moving, most of talking, etc.).]

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Sorry, I simply do not know how it works during unconciousness.

myst33 said:

It seems to me that the used personifications (angel, devil) is just a different method to say the same things we experience - conflicting inclinations, opinions and thoughts.

Similarly in mythology chaos was represented by a dragon, because zoomorphism is better grasped by people than abstract concepts. Or sometimes by "waters".

So, saying "satan is tempting me" and saying "my reproductive functions in my brain are tempting me" is the same thing, just said differently, in different language. Similarly, saying for example "we are dust" and "our bodies are mortal".

The problems come when people do not understand the language and, for example, try to read the "dust" scientifically as some chemical compound God made us from.

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Some very good points - so, perhaps, given that these are the Physical & Life Sciences forums, posters should use fewer potentially confusing religious metaphors, or at least explain what they mean (e.g. in parenthesis).

Maria Billingsley said:

I made some edits. Please read again.

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they are the one who is not ... an image of self which is a lie ... old man/beast/son of perdition/ the abomination/false prophet etc etc etc Barabbas in picture as a scape goat ... one you is lead out and no place found for it ... in one place the book likens this perception of self by way of our five husbands/senses as a menstrual cloth we cast behind us ...

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

Some very good points - so, perhaps, given that these are the Physical & Life Sciences forums, posters should use fewer potentially confusing religious metaphors, or at least explain what they mean (e.g. in parenthesis).

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On the other hand, these forums are part of Christian forums, so atheists or agnostics who come here should get a bit oriented in them, IMHO, if they want to talk with Christians.

Most people here are not scientists, so they will use the terms they are used to. Not a strictly scientific ones like in some symposium.

honey badger said:

they are the one who is not ... an image of self which is a lie ... old man/beast/son of perdition/ the abomination/false prophet etc etc etc Barabbas in picture as a scape goat ... one you is lead out and no place found for it ... in one place the book likens this perception of self by way of our five husbands/senses as a menstrual cloth we cast behind us ...

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Ah. Well thank you for engaging .
Have a blessed day.

myst33 said:

Monad - elementary spiritual particle.
Monad (philosophy) - Wikipedia

Pre-established harmony - between mind and body, between spiritual and physical
Pre-established harmony - Wikipedia

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OK.

Non-physical, immaterial. In the similar meaning when we say that God is a spirit.

Experience is a spiritual thing, so yes, the spiritual part "has" it.

I do not know "where" the spirit is. Because its immaterial and non-physical, its not anywhere. Space does not apply.

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OK, thanks for the honest attempts to explain, I appreciate it.

As far as I can see, what is immaterial, non-physical, not anywhere, and not in space, doesn't (for all practical purposes) exist. Empirically, reportable experience correlates with conscious brain activity, and specific modifications of brain activity produce specific modifications of experience; IOW, all the evidence points to experience being a function of brain activity. This alternate immaterial ontology seems to be a redundant addition, an external scaffolding to support ideas of the supernatural.

Sorry, I simply do not know how it works during unconciousness.

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OK.

myst33 said:

On the other hand, these forums are part of Christian forums, so atheists or agnostics who come here should get a bit oriented in them, IMHO, if they want to talk with Christians.

Most people here are not scientists, so they will use the terms they are used to. Not a strictly scientific ones like in some symposium.

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I take your point, but I'm not suggesting explicitly scientific terms are used, just everyday language in place of religious metaphors, or at least, brief explanations of them. Even qualifying the usage with 'metaphorical' would help.

I grew up in a Christian environment, but I'm left guessing by many of the metaphors used here. I just think it would save a lot of time to-ing and fro-ing asking for clarifications and explanations.

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

As far as I can see, what is immaterial, non-physical, not anywhere, and not in space, doesn't (for all practical purposes) exist.

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For example pain is immaterial, but it exists as we all know very well. Or thoughts. You can locate neurons in the brain, but not thoughts they correlate to.

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

Empirically, reportable experience correlates with conscious brain activity, and specific modifications of brain activity produce specific modifications of experience;

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Yes, it correlates, as brain is the physical "mirror" of the mind.

FrumiousBandersnatch said:

IOW, all the evidence points to experience being a function of brain activity. This alternate immaterial ontology seems to be a redundant addition, an external scaffolding to support ideas of the supernatural.

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Experience cannot be a function of brain in the similar manner as photons running on the eye's retina is not the mental image we actually see. There is a clear distinction between what happens in the material and immaterial world and no connection between the two was. They just "somehow" mysteriously correlate to each other.

doubtingmerle said:

Except many people here believe that Satan is a real being and really tempts people. So if one says, "Satan is tempting me", then a whole lot of people here will think that is what she means.

Its actually quite common among enlightened pastors. They use the old terminology. The congregation thinks the words have the old meaning. But the clergy meant something different. Yes, they may use the word "Satan", and the people may think they were hearing of Satan, but no, the pastors will know they actually meant something else. They keep their jobs, and they can claim to themselves that they are not lying.

But they commit the sin of silence. See When Clergy Commit the Sin of Silence | Free Inquiry (secularhumanism.org)

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I have no reason to conclude that Satan as a being does not exist. But he can certainly be used as a personification to some complex internal processes we call evil thoughts or temptations.

doubtingmerle said:

I just hope you are not one of those who use words metaphorically, so your audience thinks you are on their side, but you know you really meant something different from what they think you are saying.

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I am open minded to any new truths. As a Christian, I see satan both as a spiritual being and as a personification of our own internal evil inclinations.

Like doves are real birds but represent purity, peace or even the Holy Spirit.

Can the real satan somehow stimulate our inner temptations? I have no idea how to test it, so for now I am willing to accept it. So I can go with people who believe it literally and I have no problem with people who take it metaphorically. But for the most cases I think its metaphorical.