Whose Resurrection Doctrine should we believe?

Timtofly

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Where? Acts 17:31 very clearly indicates that God has apointed a singular day to judge everyone. Why do you just ignore verses like that? And Jesus told parables such as the parable of the fishing net in Matthew 13:47-50 where He talked all all the righteous and all the wicked being gathered at the same time for judgment at the end of the age. When is the end of the age? When Jesus returns.
"Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

This does not say "everyone". It says "the world". The fire of 2 Peter 3 is going to refine the world in righteous fire. By the time the 7th Trumpet is finished, the world will be shed of all sin and death, along with all of Adam's flesh and blood. Then righteousness will reign for 1,000 years.
 
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keras

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You would prefer to be standing at the GWT, and that reward?
The Reward that those whose names are found in the Book of Life, is Eternal Life.
The rewards given when Jesus Returns are: for those worthy to be His Priests and co-rulers. Revelation 5:9-10
When Christ comes it will not be planned. Revelation 16 is a planned judgment ending in Armageddon. That is hardly a thief in the night moment.
You know better that this.
Jesus doesn't Return unexpectedly.....with the Archangels shout and God's Trumpet call, Jesus will descend from heaven. 1 Thess 4:16

The 'thief in the night' event is the Lord's terrible Day of His fiery wrath; The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
 
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Timtofly

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Show me the scripture which calls the heavens and earth after the flood "the new heavens and new earth". If you can't do that, then stop trying to convince me of something that scripture doesn't teach.
"Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

Peter claimed the heavens and earth now was not the heavens and earth that was destroyed.

By your logic even if it declared a new heavens and earth, it would not be a new heavens and earth. You get to pick and choose what the Bible says, not what the actual Word of God says. You claim recap in Revelation where none is even implied, but yet when an event is implied you dismiss it out-of hand.
 
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Timtofly

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That is why Peter said in 2 Peter 3:13 that we look forward to the new heavens and new earth in according with the promise of Christ's second coming. Premils, in contrast, look forward to an earthly millennial kingdom in accordance with Christ's second coming, thereby contradicting what Peter said we should be looking forward to.
Both Peter and Paul stated after the Second Coming, we would still wait for a new heavens and earth while enjoying righteousness in this world.

"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

This is not Revelation 21. This is Revelation 6. After the 7th Trumpet is the restoration of Daniel 9:24. The last kingdom is the 1000 year reign.

The church is not on earth looking up in Revelation 21. The church is in the New Jerusalem as it descends from heaven. Paradise was opened on the Cross. The church has been gathering there for 1991 years. After the 1,000 year reign, Paradise will descend as the New Jerusalem.

Peter claims those on earth are waiting, not those in Paradise. Remember this was all expected to happen at any moment for over 1900 years. That is why many have been convinced it all happened in the first century. They stopped looking for righteousness, but turned it into a spiritual resurrection or any number of figurative explanations.
 
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Timtofly

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know better that this.
Jesus doesn't Return unexpectedly.....with the Archangels shout and God's Trumpet call, Jesus will descend from heaven. 1 Thess 4:16

The 'thief in the night' event is the Lord's terrible Day of His fiery wrath; The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. Revelation 16 and 19 is after the 42 months alloted to Satan and those beheaded for not receiving the mark. Christ the Prince comes to earth, otherwise Daniel 9:27 cannot happen. It may not happen anyways. Although many seem gung-ho into living out that part of Revelation to face the chopping block. No one seems to accept that the only way to remain in the Lamb's book of life is to have one's head chopped off.

Many verses in Revelation pointing out having the mark no longer in the book of life. Having one's head chopped off and avoiding the mark, remaining in the Lamb's book of life to be resurrected in Revelation 20:4.

The Lamb's book of life is opened after the 7th Seal is opened.
 
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keras

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The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. Revelation 16 and 19 is after the 42 months alloted to Satan and those beheaded for not receiving the mark. Christ the Prince comes to earth, otherwise Daniel 9:27 cannot happen. It may not happen anyways. Although many seem gung-ho into living out that part of Revelation to face the chopping block. No one seems to accept that the only way to remain in the Lamb's book of life is to have one's head chopped off.

Many verses in Revelation pointing out having the mark no longer in the book of life. Having one's head chopped off and avoiding the mark, remaining in the Lamb's book of life to be resurrected in Revelation 20:4.

The Lamb's book of life is opened after the 7th Seal is opened.
This is all unscriptural rubbish.
You have put Revelation into a mixmaster and believe the confused result.
Can't you read Revelation 12:14, where the faithful Christians are taken to and kept in a place of safety during the 42 months of the Great Trib?
Those Christians who did violate the Covenant must remain, Rev 12:17, and maybe many of them will be beheaded. They will be resurrected into mortal bodies when Jesus Returns.

The Sixth Seal cannot be the Return, it is the Lord's terrible Day of wrath; the event which commences all the prophesied end times things.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. Revelation 16 and 19 is after the 42 months alloted to Satan and those beheaded for not receiving the mark.

after Michael stands up no follower of Christ dies as probation has closed

The last plagues fall after probation has closed. This is important to know because the last plagues could be misinterpreted. Probation closes after Jesus completes judging every soul, dead or alive.

As soon as Christ is done this great work, He throws down His censer and says, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still" (Revevelation 22:11). Then the seven last plagues begin to fall, and Jesus begins preparations to go get His people.

Misinterpreting the Plagues

Probation closed 7 days before the flood when the ark's door was closed

Genesis 6:13
And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Genesis 7:10
And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Matthew 24:37
But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
 
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Timtofly

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The Sixth Seal cannot be the Return, it is the Lord's terrible Day of wrath; the event which commences all the prophesied end times things.

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

The only warning and sign is the actual appearance. The Second Coming happens when least expected. Not many expect the Second Coming to be at the 6th Seal. It seems most here expect it to happen at a planned time at the end of the 42 months.

My view of chronology is just how John presents the order. All other views are a mix-match. Revelation 12 is a sidenote of history, not a retailing of other judgments. Michael fights Satan and his angels at the start of the 7th Trumpet. During the 42 months the saints will be watching from the sea of glass. We are missing the 7 Thunders, so some of chapter 12 will not make sense, without that information.

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints."

These are singing the song of Moses, so covered by the symbol of the woman in chapter 12. Both indicate Israel.
 
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Timtofly

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The last plagues fall after probation has closed. This is important to know because the last plagues could be misinterpreted. Probation closes after Jesus completes judging every soul, dead or alive.

As soon as Christ is done this great work, He throws down His censer and says, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still" (Revevelation 22:11). Then the seven last plagues begin to fall, and Jesus begins preparations to go get His people.
This is not Scripture.

"These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

The 144k are always where Jesus as Prince goes. They are never left behind to ever "go get".

The earth will be brimming with life and righteousness for 1000 years. Only after the GWT will it be declared the righteous remain righteous, and the filthy remain filthy. The righteous will be on the earth. The filthy in the Lake of Fire.
 
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DavidPT

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During the 42 months the saints will be watching from the sea of glass.

It is during the 42 months that land them on the sea of glass. That scene is meaning after the 42 months. After the 42 months,meaning the great trib, that is then followed by the vials of wrath, the 6th seal. You can't see this because you are convinced that the chronology is exactly like recorded. How can their martyrdom have not occurred during anything recorded in Revelation 13? Doesn't that chapter say saints are made war with, then overcome, and some killed?

BTW, is it even possible for anyone to reason with you concerning any of these things? Most ppl it's at least possible to reason with them to some degree even when one is not seeing it your way nor are you seeing it their way. As to you I don't ever see you at least considering what someone else is proposing, assuming it is not what you are proposing, regardless what the subject might be.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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"Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

This does not say "everyone". It says "the world". The fire of 2 Peter 3 is going to refine the world in righteous fire. By the time the 7th Trumpet is finished, the world will be shed of all sin and death, along with all of Adam's flesh and blood. Then righteousness will reign for 1,000 years.
How is "the world" not everyone? But, if you look at the context of the entire passage of Acts 17:30-31 then you can see he was talking about everyone being judged on the same day.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

This passage is talking about how God commands "all people everywhere" to repent and the reason for that is because God has set a singular day in which He will judge "the world". So, Paul is referring to "the world" in the same context as he referred to "all people everywhere". And then he said "He has given proof of this to EVERYONE by raising him from the dead". So, Paul used the phrase "all people everywhere" and "everyone" in the same context as "the world" in this passage. You can deny that he was talking about everyone all you want, but the context shows that he was talking about everyone being judged at the same time. Which is exactly what we see portrayed in passages like Matthew 13:40-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Both Peter and Paul stated after the Second Coming, we would still wait for a new heavens and earth while enjoying righteousness in this world.

"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."
That is not at all what Peter was saying in 2 Peter 3:13. You are blatantly twisting that verse to fit your view. What Peter was clearly saying there is that the new heavens and new earth would come in accordance with "his promise". Which promise? The promise of Christ's second coming that Peter referenced earlier in 2 Peter 3:4. It does not at all say that we would still be waiting for the new heavens and new earth even after the promise of His second coming occurs.
 
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Zao is life

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That is an interjection of thought, not action. When Christ comes it will not be planned. Revelation 16 is a planned judgment ending in Armageddon. That is hardly a thief in the night moment.
Christ is coming to judge the beast, no?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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You know better that this.
Jesus doesn't Return unexpectedly.....with the Archangels shout and God's Trumpet call, Jesus will descend from heaven. 1 Thess 4:16
That verse doesn't prove that He doesn't return unexpectedly. That verse is describing His return itself. Does it say anyone will be expecting it before He descends from heaven? No. So, it will be unexpected and that verse does not at all say otherwise

Revelation 16:15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

How much more clear can this be? Jesus said Himself that He is returning unexpectedly because that's what it means to come like a thief. No one is expecting it when a thief comes.
 
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Timtofly

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It is during the 42 months that land them on the sea of glass. That scene is meaning after the 42 months. After the 42 months,meaning the great trib, that is then followed by the vials of wrath, the 6th seal. You can't see this because you are convinced that the chronology is exactly like recorded. How can their martyrdom have not occurred during anything recorded in Revelation 13? Doesn't that chapter say saints are made war with, then overcome, and some killed?

BTW, is it even possible for anyone to reason with you concerning any of these things? Most ppl it's at least possible to reason with them to some degree even when one is not seeing it your way nor are you seeing it their way. As to you I don't ever see you at least considering what someone else is proposing, assuming it is not what you are proposing, regardless what the subject might be.
I have never quoted you and stated I outright disagree, have I?

Most here just call my post rubbish and garbage. I really do not have a great track record of convincing any one. I am not sure I have ever declared, I am right and you are wrong. I just throw thoughts out there, to make people think about it. I do accept most of what I post. Why would I reject my own thoughts?

I guess my personality prevents most fraternization or making friends.

You said during the 42 months is the sea of glass, no? Here is the thing; are those beheaded waiting in sheol, the sea of glass, or elsewhere until the resurrection? Obviously they are beheaded throughout the 42 months, or it would not even be 42 months. Seems with only a few million or even a billion, all could be rounded up and given the choice within months, not even 3 years. Those beheaded only works during those 42 months, and obviously some can even be beheaded up until the 42nd month.

I would place the 144k as the group in Jerusalem around the Temple and the throne of Christ who are overcome in Revelation 13. Obviously they are not killed, they just retreat to Mt. Zion and this sea of glass. Satan is given control of the Temple and throne for 42 months. Christ and Satan do not co-reign.

During the 42 months as many are beheaded, their souls join those on the sea of glass. I think I would place the sheep there as well. It is the sheep of Matthew 25 who are singing the song of Moses. They are the redeemed of Israel throughout the Trumpets. There are also the wheat from Matthew 13, who arrive during the 7 Thunders. The sheep and wheat are directly judged and harvested as living humanity after the Second Coming. Christ as Prince is the judgement giver. Those not beheaded have already been judged, and they will rule with Christ on earth for 1000 years. It is the beheaded who join the group one at a time as souls, who need a physical resurrected body at Revelation 20:4's resurrection. It makes sense to me that those sheep and wheat waiting on the sea of glass are those who return with Christ at Armageddon so they can reign on the earth at the end of the 42 months.

So the only need for 42 months or any time period, is some still willing to have their head chopped off or not. Only God will know when the time comes, if there will even be any around who may choose that route.

What the biggest disagreement is, is the fact no one seems to want Christ on earth during the Trumpets and Thunders. Not even pre-trib rapture proponents. They do not see clearly Christ coming to the Mt of Olives at the 6th Seal. I am not here to force people to see that. Forcing people just makes them reject God's Word more. Unless they see that through the Holy Spirit, they will never see it. Most vocal Amil here confess they once were pre-mill. But instead of correcting the errors accepted by pre-mill, that even you point out, they jump on board an eschatology with even more errors.

I honestly agree with a lot of Scripture the same way, but the disagreements are way more formidable than the agreements, obviously, or you would not have pointed that out.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I have never quoted you and stated I outright disagree, have I?

Most here just call my post rubbish and garbage. I really do not have a great track record of convincing any one. I am not sure I have ever declared, I am right and you are wrong. I just throw thoughts out there, to make people think about it. I do accept most of what I post. Why would I reject my own thoughts?
You only accept most of what you post? Which implies that you don't accept at least a few things that you post? That's interesting.

I guess my personality prevents most fraternization or making friends.
We don't know you personally so the many people here who disagree with you don't disagree because of your personality. You just post things that make no sense a lot of times. And that is because of your flawed approach to interpreting scripture where, even in a book like Revelation, you interpret most things literally and in chronological order. That leads to conclusions that contradict the rest of scripture, which you don't seem to have any concerns about for some reason.
 
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keras

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please explain when this reward is granted
At the Great White Throne Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15
No one receives immortality or 'glorified bodies' before this Judgment.
You only accept most of what you post? Which implies that you don't accept at least a few things that you post? That's interesting.
Reading Timtofly's posts is like wading thru treacle.
It seems he just puts down random thoughts to see how we will react.
I have never yet put anyone on ignore. Maybe he will be the first.

Timtofly: Your ideas like the Return at the Sixth Seal and the earth totally destroyed then, are not scripturally supported. Why push them?
 
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Timtofly

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How is "the world" not everyone? But, if you look at the context of the entire passage of Acts 17:30-31 then you can see he was talking about everyone being judged on the same day.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

This passage is talking about how God commands "all people everywhere" to repent and the reason for that is because God has set a singular day in which He will judge "the world". So, Paul is referring to "the world" in the same context as he referred to "all people everywhere". And then he said "He has given proof of this to EVERYONE by raising him from the dead". So, Paul used the phrase "all people everywhere" and "everyone" in the same context as "the world" in this passage. You can deny that he was talking about everyone all you want, but the context shows that he was talking about everyone being judged at the same time. Which is exactly what we see portrayed in passages like Matthew 13:40-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46.

So even the dead, or all alive at the time? He said the world, because the world at that time will be judged, not the world of every day of the last 5991 years.

That verse can also refer to the Cross. Because all the sins of all time was judged in Christ at that point. You do not seem to be using that interpretation. Even that calls for the whole context of the chapter. After the judgment, God indeed rose Jesus from the dead, after paying the price of that judgment.

If all of Adam's flesh and blood was judged on the Cross, no other judgment would be necessary. That was Paul's point about Adam causing sin to enter the world, and Christ the second Adam being the removal of that sin, thus declaring righteousness. So the redeemed in Christ were removed from any future judgment, thus your future day still does not include all, because it cannot include the redeemed. So the only day all would ever be judged in one single event was the Cross. If all had recieved that gift of righteous, then there would be none to ever be judged again. Billions have rejected the Atonement. So does your future day only happen at the GWT when all are dead, and no one still alive? Because I would agree the dead outside of Christ only have one future day of judgment and it is not at the Second Coming. They have to keep putting off that judgment.

Only the living are destroyed at the Second Coming and not even all instantly and equally. If you call that a judgement because of Revelation 11:14

"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

John was pulling text from Psalm 2:1-5

"Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure."

Who is being judged according to comparing Scripture with Scripture? David was talking about a future day, because the Nations were raging against Jesus Christ (the anointed). The 7th Trumpet is that day. The dead are not those in sheol. Can those in sheol repent? The dead are those remaining on earth after the final harvest of the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. As Acts 17 declares; all on earth (everywhere); all who are left to physically die. So the world at the time of the 7th Trumpet is "judged", but those in sheol are not part of the world. No one has declared a resurrection. This sounding (the 7th Trumpet) is the confirmation of the Atonement Covenant. Daniel 9:27 The judgment of the Cross being declared finished and complete. The only ones left to do anything about it are those physically alive. Those who have died in the last 5991 years cannot change their minds, can they? They already made a decision. That is why they are in sheol or why they are in Paradise. This "judgment" is the 42 months of utter desolation given to Satan, the FP, and the beast. If not that judgment, then the winepress, Revelation 14:8-20.

After Paul mentioned the resurrection, he was interrupted, and never finished any explanations.

"And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter."

The only ability that allows any one to repent was the Cross and God's Atonement. And there was repentance way before the Law and the first century looking to the Cross, as well as we today looking back at the Cross. But only those physically alive still have the ability to repent.

"He hath appointed a day"

That could mean any day in history. Paul did not say, "He has a future day appointed" Paul did not even say, "There has already been a day appointed." How can there be any other day besides the Cross where all were equally judged? The judgment from God's perspective that happened before creation, but would still be just one physical day in human history.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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This is not Scripture.

"These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

The 144k are always where Jesus as Prince goes. They are never left behind to ever "go get".

The earth will be brimming with life and righteousness for 1000 years. Only after the GWT will it be declared the righteous remain righteous, and the filthy remain filthy. The righteous will be on the earth. The filthy in the Lake of Fire.

Timtofly

I believe that you are mistaken and that you can not support the above statgements from scripture
 
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