A Pastor falls...

Carl Emerson

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I read in the news a well respected Pastor has pleaded guilty in court on sexual offences.

I attended his church, he was well known.

It has troubled me for years that the structure around church leaders is, in some cases, severely wanting.

There seems to be a need for much more personal accountability and support.

I am sure leaders are spiritually targeted more than most, yet we don't seem to put measures in place to account for this.

Dare I say, that in some cases, they seem to be set up to fail.

This is 'our problem' in that we tolerate a flawed church structure that gives leaders too much power and let's them become isolated and unaccountable.

How do we fix this.

In biblical times the Apostles had this role of watching over the Churches.

Many churches have theologically dismissed this role or given up on who should fill it.

Do we need to revisit the need for some apostolic management ?

Ironically and sadly the church he served in for decades was 'apostolic' so the structure needs to be much more than a formality.

Comments appreciated including how on earth one might support such a fallen brother.
 

topher694

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I read in the news a well respected Pastor has pleaded guilty in court on sexual offences.

I attended his church, he was well known.

It has troubled me for years that the structure around church leaders is, in some cases, severely wanting.

There seems to be a need for much more personal accountability and support.

I am sure leaders are spiritually targeted more than most, yet we don't seem to put measures in place to account for this.

Dare I say, that in some cases, they seem to be set up to fail.

This is 'our problem' in that we tolerate a flawed church structure that gives leaders too much power and let's them become isolated and unaccountable.

How do we fix this.

In biblical times the Apostles had this role of watching over the Churches.

Many churches have theologically dismissed this role or given up on who should fill it.

Do we need to revisit the need for some apostolic management ?

Ironically and sadly the church he served in for decades was 'apostolic' so the structure needs to be much more than a formality.

Comments appreciated including how on earth one might support such a fallen brother.
I agree that a more apostolic approach would be good, however I don't think it will eliminate issues like this... it will just help with cleanup. People fail and make mistakes, that has always happened and will continue to. The Apostle Paul dealt with it in the Corinthian church, there's no reason to expect it wouldn't continue to happen today even under apostolic oversight. This is why Jesus is the head of the church, not a man.
 
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Paidiske

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I've definitely noticed, in moving from a city area to a more rural area, that the relationship with my bishop is very different. In the city my bishop oversaw a much larger number of parishes, and while I knew he would make time for me if I asked, there was little attention from him in general. In the country my bishop, although he looks after a much larger geographical area, has many fewer clergy under his care; and he rings for things like wishing my daughter a happy birthday.

I think bishops having fewer parishes, but being able to oversee them more directly, would probably be a good thing for accountability and support. Interestingly, we're now also all being required to have a spiritual director and a supervisor (previously this was only recommended). I find both of those places for accountability and support invaluable.
 
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The Liturgist

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I've definitely noticed, in moving from a city area to a more rural area, that the relationship with my bishop is very different. In the city my bishop oversaw a much larger number of parishes, and while I knew he would make time for me if I asked, there was little attention from him in general. In the country my bishop, although he looks after a much larger geographical area, has many fewer clergy under his care; and he rings for things like wishing my daughter a happy birthday.

I think bishops having fewer parishes, but being able to oversee them more directly, would probably be a good thing for accountability and support. Interestingly, we're now also all being required to have a spiritual director and a supervisor (previously this was only recommended). I find both of those places for accountability and support invaluable.

I agree entirely! I am, as you know, a huge fan of episcopal polity (I naturally like congregational polity also, but it does not scale - the recent trend of megachurches which are naturally congregational or otherwise independent opening satellite campuses seems wrong to me; I feel like these “satellite campuses” should instead be constituted as parishes, with the main church becoming in effect the cathedral), but a major problem arises when the dioceses are too large and clergy do not have easy or direct contact with their bishop.

The Assyrian Church of the East, which I mentioned to you previously as being an Eastern church you might actually want to visit, since they practice open communion (anyone who is baptized and believes in the real presence is invited to partake in the Church of the East) has struck me as being a church where it is extremely easy for priests to contact their bishop, indeed, even the Catholicos, and this has remained unchanged despite Mar Awa Royel, who I had the pleasure of meeting when he lived in California, having relocated the Patriarchate from Chicago back to its historic home in Iraq. Additionally, many larger churches such as St. Mary’s Cathedral in Los Angeles have a Chorepiscopus, or Choir Bishop, who is kind of equivalent to an Archpriest, but the difference is that Chorepiscopi have limited episcopal authority, usually the ability to ordain readers and other persons in minor orders.*

Conversely, the Coptic Orthodox Church had a severe problem with Patriarchal Extra-Diocesan Areas, which encompassed most of the United States. So whereas the priests of Coptic churches in the Diocese of Los Angeles under Bishop (now Metropolitan) Serapion, and Coptic churches in the Diocese of the South, benefitted from frequent contact with their bishops, and hierarchical divine liturgies were common. However, the extra-diocesan areas were under the personal authority of the Pope of Alexandria (who actually lives in Cairo, unlike his Greek Orthodox counterpart), and this had the effect of there being little or no episcopal guidance or supervision. Priests could not easily reach the Pope for guidance, because being the leader of the largest Arabic speaking church, the largest church in the Middle East, the largest church in Egypt and the second largest Oriental Orthodox church, with responsibilities ranging from dealing with the corrupt and Islamic-biased governments in the region, to ecumenical relations with other Middle Eastern churches, to facilitating the work of the larger Oriental Orthodox communion, to presiding over the Holy Synod of bishops and monastic hegumens (abbots), to defending the rights of Christians in Egypt, he had a full plate. There were “General Bishops” in the extra-diocesan areas (which encompassed most of North America), but they did not have any actual authority. Consequently, neo-evangelical groups whose values were contrary to those we might broadly associate with the Traditional Theology forum, and more specifically, those of the Oriental Orthodox faith, gained a foothold, and parishes started having praise and worship bands and selling decidedly non-Orthodox books like A Purpose Driven Life. This also started happening in Egypt, in places such as the impoverished pig farming community of Muqattam. I believe I mentioned that specific case previously.

At any rate, Pope Tawadros II got the memo, and duly created a set of shiny new dioceses, and as a result things are much better.

This whole episode however I think proves your argument that dioceses or diocese-equivalents should be small enough so as to facilitate frequent communication between the priests and the bishop.

Conversely, when I last looked into the UMC, I felt like they had too many District Superintendents and not enough Bishops, and the size disparity between a District, which is akin to a diocese, and the relatively small number of Conferences, which in size are like Anglican archdioceses or even provinces, was a bit too vast. I think it is important that the bishops also have easy access to an archbishop or metropolitan (in most churches, metropolitans outrank archbishops, but in the Oriental Orthodox churches, they are equivalent, and in the Greek, Cypriot, Romanian, and Albanian Orthodox churches, Archbishops outrank Metropolitans, interestingly enough, which is why the primates of the autocephalous Orthodox churches of Cyprus and Albania, and the autonomous Orthodox churches of Finland, Sinai and the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North America are Archbishops).

*I believe they can also reconsecrate the altar, which is useful, because Assyrian altars become deconsecrated as a result of any number of mishaps, for example, accidentally pouring oil instead of wine into the chalice (although like most eastern churches, they have something like the Byzantine antimension or the Syriac Orthodox tablitho, on which the Eucharist can be celebrated, even if the underlying altar is offline and awaiting a bishop to reconsecrate it; I like to rib my friend Fr. Ephrem about how his church (the Assyrian church) has the most sensitive and tempermental altars in the world, which deconsecrate if you look at them the wrong way.
 
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Petros2015

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How do we fix this.

I heard someone speak recently; the men in the group he was ministers with made an agreement, none of them would spend time alone with someone of the opposite sex, even if a car ride was requested, they always got another member of their group to go with.

After a year or two a few fell. They were the ones that disregarded the agreement they had all made.
 
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Paidiske

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Ugh, not that again.

That really is not an appropriate way of dealing with this issue. It causes massive problems with ministry, and severely limits the ability of people to participate in normal life to the full.
 
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The Liturgist

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Ugh, not that again.

That really is not an appropriate way of dealing with this issue. It causes massive problems with ministry, and severely limits the ability of people to participate in normal life to the full.

Indeed. Holy Celibacy is a vocation, and one which requires great discernment, and there is a reason why it is actually fairly difficult to join a monastery or a religious order like the Franciscans.
 
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Petros2015

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Ugh, not that again.
That really is not an appropriate way of dealing with this issue.

Not sure if you were referring to my post or another; there were a few other nuances to the story as I recall. This particular group was doing a lot of travelling away from home, and it was workable and made sense. I would agree its not a necessary extreme in all cases, but in this case it didn't hurt the ones who followed it and didn't help the ones who didn't.
 
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Paidiske

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Not sure if you were referring to my post or another; there were a few other nuances to the story as I recall. This particular group was doing a lot of travelling away from home, and it was workable and made sense. I would agree its not a necessary extreme in all cases, but in this case it didn't hurt the ones who followed it and didn't help the ones who didn't.

Yes, I was referring to your post.

I've spent a lot of time thinking, reading and researching this issue - at one point I even did an experiment for a month where I recorded every time I broke this "rule," and how it would have impacted my life or ministry if I kept it - and I've become convinced that it has a number of negative outcomes. Firstly, that it tends to exclude women from opportunities as men refuse to interact with them in a range of normal settings; secondly, that in many cases it removes the possibility of true confidentiality where that's appropriate and even necessary; and thirdly, that keeping this rule relies on entitlement to other people's time, money, or convenience.

As I summed up a blog post on the issue:
"Our society is set up on the basic assumption that adults - both men and women - can navigate and interact with our communities independently. Subverting that assumption is not just a matter of adjusting one's own behaviour, but expecting everyone around you to cooperate with that subversion, often to their own detriment. My conclusion, after a month of tracking my own interactions, is that keeping the Billy Graham rule would harm me, and harm my relationships. It would also weaken the fabric of the local community, as I would wilfully distance myself from some important relationships. If more people practised it, those effects would ripple and multiply through our society. In short, it would be highly detrimental, and ought to be discouraged."
 
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Petros2015

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I've spent a lot of time thinking, reading and researching this issue

Cool - I appreciate the insights you shared on the topic; none of which I had previously considered.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I was single for ten years between two marriages.

I was super careful in this regard for three reasons.

First I had seen first hand that given the right circumstances I was no match for the power of seduction if is was fuelled spiritually.

Second it is becoming more common for false accusations to be made for whatever reason, so best not to risk being a target.

Third there was simply too much at stake - I knew I had a calling and didn't want my life to be hijacked.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I read in the news a well respected Pastor has pleaded guilty in court on sexual offences.
Being Catholic, we have a hierarchy. That should mean accountability and good oversight from the overseers. But that presumes good overseers. Some need their vision checked as they can't seem to see what's going on, some need an exam to see if there is evidence of a spine because they do nothing, and some of them need their own punches in the face. Sorry. But for me it gets visceral.

We have more than one bad bishop. I'm thinking specifically about ex-cardinal McCarrick who is one nasty piece of work. The problem with such people is that they tend to oversee the expansion of their particular kind of rot. I could go on and on. Point is just having oversight is no guarantee of anything. Good oversight is needed. It's supposed to be a pedigreed system where good overseers perpetuate themselves. But when a bad one gets in they tend to perpetuate themselves too. Having bishops, and having them at the right ratios doesn't make everything great.

I can't say more without getting really angry or saying something that will get me in trouble on the forum.
 
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WolfGate

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Yes, I was referring to your post.

I've spent a lot of time thinking, reading and researching this issue - at one point I even did an experiment for a month where I recorded every time I broke this "rule," and how it would have impacted my life or ministry if I kept it - and I've become convinced that it has a number of negative outcomes. Firstly, that it tends to exclude women from opportunities as men refuse to interact with them in a range of normal settings; secondly, that in many cases it removes the possibility of true confidentiality where that's appropriate and even necessary; and thirdly, that keeping this rule relies on entitlement to other people's time, money, or convenience.

As I summed up a blog post on the issue:
"Our society is set up on the basic assumption that adults - both men and women - can navigate and interact with our communities independently. Subverting that assumption is not just a matter of adjusting one's own behaviour, but expecting everyone around you to cooperate with that subversion, often to their own detriment. My conclusion, after a month of tracking my own interactions, is that keeping the Billy Graham rule would harm me, and harm my relationships. It would also weaken the fabric of the local community, as I would wilfully distance myself from some important relationships. If more people practised it, those effects would ripple and multiply through our society. In short, it would be highly detrimental, and ought to be discouraged."

I think this covers the topic really, really well.

I'll start by saying that I love Billy Graham. I lived 51 of my 59 years in his state of North Carolina, where he is revered and has had a huge positive impact. My problem with this specific Billy Graham rule, beyond what Paidiske said, is that it treats men like we have no control over our own temptations - which is both insulting to men and forces women to bear the negative consequences of men's supposed inability to have self control. It is that same dynamic that lead to a modesty culture that controlled and shamed women's clothing choices to prevent men from sinning.

I'm not naive. I understand that temptation is real. I also understand that people are more likely to slide into an inappropriate relationship if they don't see it could happen to them. I know church leaders have fallen - I've seen it happen. I've been the leader of a large lay-elder-lead church where there was a need to meet with people of all ages and genders. Instead of creating an artificial fence in the hope of keeping any temptation miles away, I choose to do a few other things. First, acknowledge that as an imperfect person, I am also susceptible to temptation. Second, as others around me are also imperfect people, I accepted that they could be susceptible to temptation. Third, I thought through either of the scenarios, where I recognized temptation on my part or saw the signs someone might be dealing with that towards me. I decided ahead of time the actions I would take if either one of those situations occurred, actions which were centered around using the free will I was given by God to make God honoring choices - not actions that kept another from having the opportunities they needed.

Like any other difficult area of ministry, it pays to have thought through how to handle a challenge or crisis before it happens. Interestingly, I found that approach also assisted me in always seeing women in our church as the daughters of God that they are - which runs counter to seeing them as the objects they are often portrayed in society (including too many men in the church).
 
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Carl Emerson

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I think this covers the topic really, really well.

I'll start by saying that I love Billy Graham. I lived 51 of my 59 years in his state of North Carolina, where he is revered and has had a huge positive impact. My problem with this specific Billy Graham rule, beyond what Paidiske said, is that it treats men like we have no control over our own temptations - which is both insulting to men and forces women to bear the negative consequences of men's supposed inability to have self control. It is that same dynamic that lead to a modesty culture that controlled and shamed women's clothing choices to prevent men from sinning.

I'm not naive. I understand that temptation is real. I also understand that people are more likely to slide into an inappropriate relationship if they don't see it could happen to them. I know church leaders have fallen - I've seen it happen. I've been the leader of a large lay-elder-lead church where there was a need to meet with people of all ages and genders. Instead of creating an artificial fence in the hope of keeping any temptation miles away, I choose to do a few other things. First, acknowledge that as an imperfect person, I am also susceptible to temptation. Second, as others around me are also imperfect people, I accepted that they could be susceptible to temptation. Third, I thought through either of the scenarios, where I recognized temptation on my part or saw the signs someone might be dealing with that towards me. I decided ahead of time the actions I would take if either one of those situations occurred, actions which were centered around using the free will I was given by God to make God honoring choices - not actions that kept another from having the opportunities they needed.

Like any other difficult area of ministry, it pays to have thought through how to handle a challenge or crisis before it happens. Interestingly, I found that approach also assisted me in always seeing women in our church as the daughters of God that they are - which runs counter to seeing them as the objects they are often portrayed in society (including too many men in the church).

This is a bit late but I just saw your post.

it is interesting in view of your response that you had a strategy in place to deal with possible future temptation.

This aligns with the scripture "resist Satan and he will flee from you"

The Greek 'resist' is literally 'to make arrangements against' in other words, it is done in advance.
 
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Bob Crowley

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I'm a member of the Saint Vincent de Paul Society. We have a policy we should always visit in pairs. This doesn't necessarily mean the accompanying member can't be the opposite sex, although in my case it's usually my wife.

While part of the reason is for physical safety, I think these days the more common threat would be false accusations, as per Carl Emerson's comment "Second it is becoming more common for false accusations to be made for whatever reason, so best not to risk being a target." It happens. I heard of a story like that through the Vinnies grapevine some time ago.

I also remember a story my old Presbyterian pastor told me. One of his friends, another pastor, gave a young hitch hiking lady a lift. When he dropped her off, she said "That will be $20 thanks". He said "What?" She replied that if he didn't give her the money, she'd tell the police he'd tried to have a sexual relationship with her.

My pastor said to him "You didn't give her the money did you!!?" The other bloke replied, "I did... I knew you'd believe me, and I'm pretty sure my wife would have believed me. But the police ... would they have believed me?"

I doubt whether he picked up any more female hitch hikers.
 
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Daniel9v9

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Well, simply, we are sinners, and we all need to be held accountable. We always need to repent and we always need the comfort of the Gospel. This is true for pastors as well. Unfortunately, we live in an age where many contemporary churches are moving away from denominational oversight.

A great example of this is Hillsong who has moved away from the Pentecostal church and has become its own denomination. Their leadership board consists of family and friends and a loose network of like-minded people, and not an independent third-party or a denomination, so the conditions are really poor in terms of accountability, transparency, and oversight. This is not unique to Hillsong but is quite common. Basically, in this kind of church government, every lead pastor essentially becomes his own pope. This is very dangerous because whatever the lead pastor is saying, claiming to be the Word of God, is not generally tested or measured against the actual Word of God or any real doctrinal standard.

To give a practical example: Who is the church body that holds Steven Furtick accountable for what he preaches? Is that another church leader like T.D. Jakes? Who is T.D. Jakes accountable to? When church leaders like this hold each other accountable, there's not much accountability. This creates many problems, both to do with both purity of life and of doctrine. And I think it's more obviously manifested in life — we can call to mind recent scandals involving sexual immorality, greed, substance abuse, and pride.

What we can do, is to pray for our pastors, and wherever possible, urge for more transparency, pastoral care, and accountability. It's also good to think about what people are preaching critically with God's Word in mind. For example, if a preacher is always inclined to preach on hidden truths from God's Word, but not the actual meaning as you find it in your average study Bible, that should be a clear warning to us to find a different church, where God's Word is faithfully preached.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Well, simply, we are sinners, and we all need to be held accountable. We always need to repent and we always need the comfort of the Gospel. This is true for pastors as well. Unfortunately, we live in an age where many contemporary churches are moving away from denominational oversight.

A great example of this is Hillsong who has moved away from the Pentecostal church and has become its own denomination. Their leadership board consists of family and friends and a loose network of like-minded people, and not an independent third-party or a denomination, so the conditions are really poor in terms of accountability, transparency, and oversight. This is not unique to Hillsong but is quite common. Basically, in this kind of church government, every lead pastor essentially becomes his own pope. This is very dangerous because whatever the lead pastor is saying, claiming to be the Word of God, is not generally tested or measured against the actual Word of God or any real doctrinal standard.

To give a practical example: Who is the church body that holds Steven Furtick accountable for what he preaches? Is that another church leader like T.D. Jakes? Who is T.D. Jakes accountable to? When church leaders like this hold each other accountable, there's not much accountability. This creates many problems, both to do with both purity of life and of doctrine. And I think it's more obviously manifested in life — we can call to mind recent scandals involving sexual immorality, greed, substance abuse, and pride.

What we can do, is to pray for our pastors, and wherever possible, urge for more transparency, pastoral care, and accountability. It's also good to think about what people are preaching critically with God's Word in mind. For example, if a preacher is always inclined to preach on hidden truths from God's Word, but not the actual meaning as you find it in your average study Bible, that should be a clear warning to us to find a different church, where God's Word is faithfully preached.

You know for decades many could see these issues but there was never a forum to discuss...

Thank you Lord for CF...
 
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Daniel9v9

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You know for decades many could see these issues but there was never a forum to discuss...

Thank you Lord for CF...

Yes, God be praised! I'm glad there is a way for the church around the world and across denominations to communicate and help each other with prayers. Speaking for myself, I've found CF incredibly educating and interesting, and I'm glad there is a way for us to share our concerns, burdens and also our joys. :)

Blessings!
 
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Christian Gedge

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How do we fix this.

In biblical times the Apostles had this role of watching over the Churches.

Many churches have theologically dismissed this role or given up on who should fill it.

Do we need to revisit the need for some apostolic management ?

As the Church grew the Apostles began appointing elders. The answer is, I believe, eldership - humble servant leadership.
 
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