Womens roles in the church

3 Resurrections · Jan 21, 2022

LoveofTruth said:
Totally wrong again. I also quoted when all prophesy in any gathering that the other is judeged of all and convinced abs this is before all . It’s interesting how you avoid that. Snd not just riders are to be rebuked and warned of sin before all.

I did not avoid the topic of church discipline among the members of an assembly. I just said that this particular verse you used (1 Timothy 5:20) was not the one that talked about that subject. Those who were to be "rebuked before all" were specifically the ELDERS in this context, which Paul had just mentioned having an accusation brought against THEM. THEY were the ones who were to be "rebuked before all, that others might fear".

Those in the church were NOT to rebuke an elder, unless they had two or three corroborating witnesses that could accuse the person. If the church met this requirement, then they could rebuke the elder before all. One who ministered to the congregation was supposed to be an "example to the flock". When that example broke down into error or sin, Paul was proscribing the remedy for that situation.

Your text from 1 Corinthians 14:23-25 that speaks of an unbeliever coming in and being "judged of all" is not speaking about church discipline being applied to them. The word "judged" in that text means for that unbeliever or the unlearned to be "discerned by all", or "made manifest" to all. In fact, "unbelievers" or the "unlearned" who are not part of an assembly are never to be disciplined by the church. That is GOD'S job. As Paul said in that notable case of the man being removed from the fellowship for fornication, "For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore, put away from among yourselves that wicked person." (1 Corinthians 5:12-13). Paul said it wasn't his business to judge those who were outside the assembly.

The church was to maintain a righteous reputation by judging those within its own fellowship (which had its own proscribed method for this). But those who were outside of that fellowship, GOD would take care of judging them if necessary. That is why rebellious members of each individual fellowship are to be finally "put away" after several private admonitions have not worked - to allow God to deal with them as separated from the fellowship. If they repent, well and good; scripture lays out procedures for restoration as well.

Ligurian · Jan 21, 2022

All Glory To God said:
Where does the scripture state she was ''doing pastoring activities''? Your words.

Isn't there a gentile verse that says the woman will be saved in childbearing if they continue in what she taught?
So... if the woman is deceived by her husband or her pastor into believing wrong doctrines... and teaches her children those wrong doctrines... then who goes to hell? The woman and her children, or her husband and the pastor?
Who told Eve not to even touch the Tree of Knowledge?

Archivist · Jan 21, 2022

All Glory To God said:
For you, humourous light-hearted memes are an appropriate way to communicate as the serious discourse is not effective.

Change my mind?

Serious discourse? Now you are going from pictures to insults. I have offered evidence to back my arguments. You have failed to address it.

3 Resurrections · Jan 21, 2022

All Glory To God said:
Where does the scripture state she was ''doing pastoring activities''? Your words.

You remember, of course, that Paul's instructions to Titus (who was himself to be ordaining elders in every city), directed him that "A man that is an heretick, after the first and second admonition reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." (Titus 3:10-11).

Paul expected Titus to exercise this kind of oversight in the assembly by rejecting those who proved to be divisive and "sectarian". This "rejecting" or "not receiving" people into the fellowship of the assembly was a pastoral duty to protect the flock. Which the "elect lady" of 2 John was also being instructed to do. This was to protect "her children", and maintain their "walking in truth".

LoveofTruth · Jan 21, 2022

3 Resurrections said:
I did not avoid the topic of church discipline among the members of an assembly. I just said that this particular verse you used (1 Timothy 5:20) was not the one that talked about that subject. Those who were to be "rebuked before all" were specifically the ELDERS in this context, which Paul had just mentioned having an accusation brought against THEM. THEY were the ones who were to be "rebuked before all, that others might fear".

Those in the church were NOT to rebuke an elder, unless they had two or three corroborating witnesses that could accuse the person. If the church met this requirement, then they could rebuke the elder before all. One who ministered to the congregation was supposed to be an "example to the flock". When that example broke down into error or sin, Paul was proscribing the remedy for that situation.

Your text from 1 Corinthians 14:23-25 that speaks of an unbeliever coming in and being "judged of all" is not speaking about church discipline being applied to them. The word "judged" in that text means for that unbeliever or the unlearned to be "discerned by all", or "made manifest" to all. In fact, "unbelievers" or the "unlearned" who are not part of an assembly are never to be disciplined by the church. That is GOD'S job. As Paul said in that notable case of the man being removed from the fellowship for fornication, "For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore, put away from among yourselves that wicked person." (1 Corinthians 5:12-13). Paul said it wasn't his business to judge those who were outside the assembly.

The church was to maintain a righteous reputation by judging those within its own fellowship (which had its own proscribed method for this). But those who were outside of that fellowship, GOD would take care of judging them if necessary. That is why rebellious members of each individual fellowship are to be finally "put away" after several private admonitions have not worked - to allow God to deal with them as separated from the fellowship. If they repent, well and good; scripture lays out procedures for restoration as well.

I simply showed you that you were not correct by saying in the church there should be no judging or exposing of sin etc and consider this also,there are many examples

2 Corinthians 12: 21. And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.”

Abs when some prophesied in the meetings the ones hearing it in a church meeting would be judged of all and convinced. This prophesy can also convict believers as well or those in secret sin.

Another section to consider

“ Acts 20: 29. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.”

done among believers in gatherings.

And

“ Titus 1: 10. For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11. Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12. One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14. Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.”

and

2 Timothy 4: 2. Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.”

and

“ 1 Timothy 1: 3. As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,”

And

1 Corinthians 5: 1. It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5. To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7. Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:”

exposing sin in the church is always needed. And then that sin rebuke before all. This verse may apply to elders but also to all in the gathering. This is basic in church life.
If a brother gets up and says a false prophesy that is to be judged before all as 1Cor 14 says. Let the other judge. And if a person speaks false doctrine charge them before all not to do so and exhort and convince the gainsayers eith sound doctrine .

Etc

Archivist · Jan 21, 2022

All Glory To God said:
Where does it say she was a Pastor?

The title Pastor is used infrequently in the Bible. Pastor comes from the Latin word for shepherd. The more common terms for church leaders in Scripture are bishop, elder, and overseer.

Archivist · Jan 21, 2022

LoveofTruth said:
I simply showed you that you were not correct by saying in the church there should be no judging or exposing of sin etc and consider this also,there are many examples

2 Corinthians 12: 21. And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.”

Abs when some prophesied in the meetings the ones hearing it in a church meeting would be judged of all and convinced. This prophesy can also convict believers as well or those in secret sin.

Another section to consider

“ Acts 20: 29. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.”

done among believers in gatherings.

And

“ Titus 1: 10. For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11. Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12. One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14. Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.”

and

2 Timothy 4: 2. Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.”

and

“ 1 Timothy 1: 3. As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,”

And

1 Corinthians 5: 1. It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5. To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7. Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:”

exposing sin in the church is always needed. And then that sin rebuke before all. This verse may apply to elders but also to all in the gathering. This is basic in church life.
If a brother gets up and says a false prophesy that is to be judged before all as 1Cor 14 says. Let the other judge. And if a person speaks false doctrine charge them before all not to do so and exhort and convince the gainsayers eith sound doctrine .

Etc

I have asked you twice what is your source for the definitions you have offered. I’m still waiting for an answer.

3 Resurrections · Jan 21, 2022

LoveofTruth said:
I simply showed you that you were not correct by saying in the church there should be no judging or exposing of sin etc

You must be using a foreign language translator to read what I'm writing, because I did not say that there should be no judging or exposing of sin in the church. I am arguing that the particular text of "rebuking before all" is speaking in particular about ELDERS, and only elders in that context. This is clear from Paul's language.

Archivist has already mentioned in their comment #1028 Christ's own words on the subject of just how sin should be corrected in the assembly in Matthew 18:15-17.

"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

This is a step-by-step process of correcting offenses taking place in the assembly. It does not begin with a public rebuke in front of everybody. That is the very last resort to be tried, after every other avenue to correct the situation has already been attempted.

I have to tell you, your posts with this heavy emphasis on policing churches is bringing back some very bad memories of a cult church I unfortunately endured for 16 years of spiritual abuse. It was a totally unhealthy atmosphere. Their so-called "church discipline" was a farce.

That so-called "pastor" used the very text you are emphasizing in 1 Timothy 5:20 to carry out his own family discipline. If one child out of the seven he had was going to be beaten with a rod for some infraction, he would seat the entire family in a circle of chairs to watch the chosen one being whipped in front of them all. This was his mistaken interpretation that "them that sin rebuke before all, that others may fear". He often boasted that if one of his teen children began to get independent ideas, that he would literally strip them naked as the day they were born, and leave them on a downtown street to fend for themselves. His heavy-handed imposed "church discipline" of "erring members" was of like severity, and demanded 100% approval and participation from every single member. So, I hope you can understand why I am cautious of those who would take this verse and decide that this is describing a public verbal flogging of individual church assembly members. This is NOT what Paul was speaking about in 1 Timothy 5:19-20.

LoveofTruth · Jan 21, 2022

Archivist said:
I have asked you twice what is your source for the definitions you have offered. I’m still waiting for an answer.

Strongs Exhaustive Concordance

LoveofTruth · Jan 21, 2022

3 Resurrections said:
You must be using a foreign language translator to read what I'm writing, because I did not say that there should be no judging or exposing of sin in the church. I am arguing that the particular text of "rebuking before all" is speaking in particular about ELDERS, and only elders in that context. This is clear from Paul's language.

Archivist has already mentioned in their comment #1028 Christ's own words on the subject of just how sin should be corrected in the assembly in Matthew 18:15-17.

"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

This is a step-by-step process of correcting offenses taking place in the assembly. It does not begin with a public rebuke in front of everybody. That is the very last resort to be tried, after every other avenue to correct the situation has already been attempted.

I have to tell you, your posts with this heavy emphasis on policing churches is bringing back some very bad memories of a cult church I unfortunately endured for 16 years of spiritual abuse. It was a totally unhealthy atmosphere. Their so-called "church discipline" was a farce.

That so-called "pastor" used the very text you are emphasizing in 1 Timothy 5:20 to carry out his own family discipline. If one child out of the seven he had was going to be beaten with a rod for some infraction, he would seat the entire family in a circle of chairs to watch the chosen one being whipped in front of them all. This was his mistaken interpretation that "them that sin rebuke before all, that others may fear". He often boasted that if one of his teen children began to get independent ideas, that he would literally strip them naked as the day they were born, and leave them on a downtown street to fend for themselves. His heavy-handed imposed "church discipline" of "erring members" was of like severity, and demanded 100% approval and participation from every single member. So, I hope you can understand why I am cautious of those who would take this verse and decide that this is describing a public verbal flogging of individual church assembly members. This is NOT what Paul was speaking about in 1 Timothy 5:19-20.

More wrong understanding about what I’m saying and the issue .

Matthew 18 seems more about another brother offending a brother personally this is not something said or done in a public gathering. If sin or false doctrine or false prophecy is done before all , it must be addressed before all for all to fear and benefit. And yes he will also be brought before the church if he does not repent. This judging or exposing sin can be done right there as we see in 1 Cor 14 let the prophets speak and let the other judge. This judgement is done right there before all not a Matthew 18 issue.

I believe you error in doctrine about this issue. As I have shown.

All reproof and rebuke and warning of sin is to be done in wisdom, grace, love,and by those who are spiritual .

you greatly misunderstand true spiritual judging and correction in the gatherings. This might be due in part as you said to your thoughts of a certain cult group that has nothing to do with me or what I share from scripture.

and what’s interesting about the scripture “them that sin rebuke before all”, Is that this still must be done in the church gathering and as you see them sin, it seems to be immediately. We see Paul immediately withstanding Peter who was in error before all. This was as soon as he saw that they walked not uprightly. So he did not follow a Matthew 18 order there.

also the ones rebuking the “them that sin” before all may be any part of the body doing do.

but let’s take the woman issue and a single woman who is in oversight (unbiblically out of God’s order as I know from scripture) and it would then be correct to address the churches error before all.

Paidiske · Jan 21, 2022

All Glory To God said:
Greek is oldest Continuing language in the world. It has undergone restructuring but has certainly not been a ''dead'' language at any point. Perhaps your denomination is teaching you misinformation?

It's dead in the sense that a modern Greek speaker can't generally easily read and understand Koine, and learning Koine doesn't make you fluent in modern Greek. Yes, they're still related - I can pick out some words in a modern Greek text - but my point is that no one is today a native speaker of the language of the NT.

That said, there's been enough continuous scholarship in it for the rest of my post - that I am quite proficient in reading and translating it - to be true.

3 Resurrections · Jan 21, 2022

LoveofTruth said:
but let’s take the woman issue and a single woman who is in oversight (unbiblically out of God’s order as I know from scripture) and it would then be correct to address the churches error publicslly.

This issue of a solitary woman serving an assembly in the ministry is a topic I have addressed on the egalitarian forum recently. The question would be, "Does God desire for one and only one person of either gender to be in oversight of an assembly?" I believe the scripture pattern is to have PLURAL elders in each assembly. Ideally, this should be a woman and a man paired in this ministry role, so that the strengths and perspectives of both genders can give balance to each other. I believe Christ intended the assembly to replicate a natural family unit in its composition: that being a father and a mother, and children growing to maturity, to start families of their own in time.

If that were two women, or two men leading an assembly, that would resemble a same-sex marriage setup, which is not God's design. And for a single person of either gender to be leading an assembly, this situation becomes just as overloaded as an overwhelmed single-parent family trying to cover all the bases. Though it might be necessary due to special circumstances, yet I believe God intended two to be better than one in the ministry. And that He truly intended both genders to be represented in that role of ministry, to maintain a balanced perspective that can relate to both men and women in the assembly.

Paidiske · Jan 22, 2022

As I think I said in that thread in the Egalitarian forum, while I definitely agree about shared leadership, I think the idea that it must be a married couple comes with a lot of problems and limitations.

Balance and diversity in ministry is really good, but let God call whom God calls. The rest will work itself out.

LoveofTruth · Jan 22, 2022

3 Resurrections said:
This issue of a solitary woman serving an assembly in the ministry is a topic I have addressed on the egalitarian forum recently. The question would be, "Does God desire for one and only one person of either gender to be in oversight of an assembly?" I believe the scripture pattern is to have PLURAL elders in each assembly. Ideally, this should be a woman and a man paired in this ministry role, so that the strengths and perspectives of both genders can give balance to each other. I believe Christ intended the assembly to replicate a natural family unit in its composition: that being a father and a mother, and children growing to maturity, to start families of their own in time.

If that were two women, or two men leading an assembly, that would resemble a same-sex marriage setup, which is not God's design. And for a single person of either gender to be leading an assembly, this situation becomes just as overloaded as an overwhelmed single-parent family trying to cover all the bases. Though it might be necessary due to special circumstances, yet I believe God intended two to be better than one in the ministry. And that He truly intended both genders to be represented in that role of ministry, to maintain a balanced perspective that can relate to both men and women in the assembly.

Ok, well, what you say here is wrong and it seems to be just made up with no scriptural evidence at all.

I do agree that there should be a plurality of elders in every church. But all these Elder/overseers are male in oversight.

And take note that Jesus call 12 men apostles to do the work at first.

But consider these scriptures which show that Elder/overseers are only men in the plural.

Titus 1: 5. For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: 6. If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 9. Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.”

notice the plurality of male elder/overseers. Notice the make references

Acts 15: 6. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.”

notice the male gender again.

Etc

3 Resurrections · Jan 22, 2022

Paidiske said:
As I think I said in that thread in the Egalitarian forum, while I definitely agree about shared leadership, I think the idea that it must be a married couple comes with a lot of problems and limitations.

Balance and diversity in ministry is really good, but let God call whom God calls. The rest will work itself out.

Yes, I definitely remember your comments, and that they made good sense that there would be certain drawbacks to expecting a paired man and woman in the ministry to be composed of a married couple. One of them being pressure brought to bear on one of the married couple, if that one did not feel called to the ministry. That is not always the case that both feel God's call to this, and as you have said, it should not be presumed to be necessary.

Thank you for bringing that up, since others also might think that I was putting a requirement on this paired ministry couple being married to each other.

3 Resurrections · Jan 22, 2022

LoveofTruth said:
Ok, well, what you say here is wrong snd it seems to be just made up with no scriptural evidence at all.

I have listed scripture before on this topic elsewhere, but I don't always have time to do a list of scripture for every comment I make. I write in between doing workroom orders for my business. But if you would like a link to another website where I have given plenty of scripture for consideration on this issue, I can supply that if you wish. (Although if you are predisposed to reject the texts, it will not make much difference to you, I should think.)

Strong in Him · Jan 22, 2022

All Glory To God said:
Please just answer the question as you brought it up: Have you used Old Testament scripture to try and validate a point in this thread?

No.
I used OT characters to illustrate my point.

Strong in Him · Jan 22, 2022

Ligurian said:
You act like the entire OT had the world-wide-sacrificial-system with which to bribe God to take their sins away.

The people who had the sacrificial system were the Hebrews - those who had been slaves in Egypt and whom God had rescued; those who became his chosen through the covenant that God made.
Nobody bribed God to take their sins away; this was what he gave them; the means for making atonement for their sins.

Ligurian said:
Anyway, it's the sacrifice that had to be perfect, not the priest, per se. The priest was made ceremonially clean then dressed in his ceremonial garb, having been previously anointed as priest... and followed the usual procedure to offer an animal...

The comment was made that the priest had to be without blemish to approach God.

I wasn't sure if that was stated as a requirement and hadn't checked. My comment was that God doesn't expect, or wait for, people to become perfect before he uses them/asks them to serve him.

Ligurian said:
As for the chosen people aspect... Is it your view that the rest of mankind was--from the time that Abram found grace, 'til the second gospel of the NT--born only to die?

No - we weren't talking about that and I made no such comment.
The Hebrew people, Israelites who were later known as Jews, were God's people - rescued by him from slavery, given his law, word and covenant, They saw his miracles, the way that he provided for them in the wilderness, how he fought their enemies and led them into the Promised Land. Those who were not God's chosen people were known as Gentiles; uncircumcised people who were unclean.

Ligurian said:
If I were to guess, I'd say we're missing the main point: Because the Creator created us all. If only some were born chosen, then the rest of the people are dead because God wanted it that way...

I don't believe that some are born chosen.

That wasn't my point in any case. God clearly chose, and called, certain people to do certain things.
Someone had to go to Pharaoh and lead the nation out of Egypt - God called Moses, an 80 year old man, to do that.
We were talking about leadership and the poster's comments a) that a priest had to be without blemish and b) that God deserves the best.
My response was that God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. In Scripture is it often those who would be considered to be too young/old/weak and of little importance who God calls and uses to do great things - rather than the strong, powerful, wealthy, self sufficient etc. This is reflected in the Magnificat - "he has cast down the mighty from their thrones and lifted up the lowly", and Jesus' words that the last will be first and the first last.

Strong in Him · Jan 22, 2022

Ligurian said:
Isn't there a gentile verse that says the woman will be saved in childbearing if they continue in what she taught?

Paul said that in 1 Timothy 2:15.
It's another interesting point in this debate - people who insist that 1 Timothy 2:12 is to be taken, and applied, literally, seem to have no answer when it comes to 1 Tim 2:15.
If women are saved through childbearing, they are not saved by Jesus - and women who don't have children have no hope.

All Glory To God · Jan 22, 2022

3 Resurrections said:
You remember, of course, that Paul's instructions to Titus (who was himself to be ordaining elders in every city), directed him that "A man that is an heretick, after the first and second admonition reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." (Titus 3:10-11).

Paul expected Titus to exercise this kind of oversight in the assembly by rejecting those who proved to be divisive and "sectarian". This "rejecting" or "not receiving" people into the fellowship of the assembly was a pastoral duty to protect the flock. Which the "elect lady" of 2 John was also being instructed to do. This was to protect "her children", and maintain their "walking in truth".

Where does it state in 2 John she was ''doing pastoring activities''? If it's not there you can always tell the truth and say, it's not there. I'm simply holding you to account for your claim.

Womens roles in the church

That's 666 YEARS, folks

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That's 666 YEARS, folks

Christ builds His church from within us

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Senior Veteran

That's 666 YEARS, folks

Christ builds His church from within us

Christ builds His church from within us

Clara bonam audax

That's 666 YEARS, folks

Clara bonam audax

Christ builds His church from within us

That's 666 YEARS, folks

That's 666 YEARS, folks

Great is thy faithfulness

Great is thy faithfulness

Great is thy faithfulness

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