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GDL

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Thank you GDL. This is exactly what I believe the scriptures teach. Many are always seeking to separate love and law and faith and works none of which are separated from each other as love is expressed in obedience to Gods' law from a new heart that loves according to Gods' new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27). This is why Jesus says we need to be born again (John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:6-9). According to the scriptures, if we have genuine faith in Gods' Word we will do what God's Word says (Romans 3:31). Obedience to God's Word therefore, is the fruit of genuine faith that works by a new heart that loves both God and man. Well said! :oldthumbsup:

God bless

Thank you, LGW.

If you would, please take a look at my response #820 to SabbathBlessings. I'd like to hear any thoughts you may have about the precision in what we say issue. It's been refreshing reading some of the posts from the 2 of you.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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LoveGodsWord

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Thank you for your reply.
That's the beauty of how these words are actually so woven together. If I may: "Doing good works for the purpose of getting in heaven will not necessarily get you into heaven without belief..."

At least in the main sense of "good works" in the NT, I don't think there are good works apart from belief (Biblical Faith). That's the point and reality of what this interwovenness results in.

Exactly, faith and works are not separate from each other. Genuine faith believes Gods Word and follows or obeys what Gods' Word says. Anything else is the dead faith of devils (James 2:17-26).

Please pardon me for saying so, I mean no disrespect, but I still read your statement as hedging. What I'm saying since my first post to you, is that there is a precision in God's Word that we need to conform to if we are to think His thoughts and from there speak His words.

For example:

If I say, "we show our love for God when we obey Him" - it's not necessarily the same as saying, "our non-burdened obedience to God is our Love for God" (1 John 5:3).
  • Depending on the thinking of the one saying the first statement, I am left wondering if this person thinks we can love God apart from obeying Him.
  • And this goes into what Jesus spoke about regarding the Law - the Law works at the level of our thoughts, not just our actions.
  • Being in Christ, having the gift of God's Spirit, having God's Law written on our hearts, is changing us to our core. He's dealing with the thoughts and intentions of our hearts, our will and desires. Hebrews speaks of our consciences now being perfected and the inability under the old priesthood and sacrificial system for this to be accomplished.
  • I think all this is why John speaks of loving in truth in 1-3 John, which suggests that people can love not in truth, which in reality would not be Biblical Love.
  • Unfortunately, people are good at acting. But not in God's eyes, and He doesn't like hypocrisy, so He's changing us in Christ, and He tells us with specificity that our non-burdened obedience to Him IS our love for Him - our actual willful obedience from our core with a new heart and His Spirit in us. I think this non-burdened concept is very important, because it speaks of this Love/Obedience being natural and effortless, because it's from who and what we are now in Christ.
  • In essence He's telling us no more acting like you love Him, no more thinking we love Him just because we act outwardly in a certain way under Law that makes us, or others think we love God. At and from our core, as a new creation in Christ, our willful, natural, and knowledgeable obedience in Faith/Obedience and Love/Obedience to Him in truth, is what He's developing in us as He saves us.
  • I also see this tied to what Jesus said in John 4, when 7 or 8 times He in a few verses spoke of worshipping God in Spirit and Truth - He spoke of that time being the beginning of the outworking of God's desire that true worshippers do this. The translational issue there is that "worship" does not convey the primary meaning of the word He used. It means to bow in obeisance [to a ruler - to God]. So, it's another discussion about our Obedience. Thus, it's another Faith and Love and Works [in Spirit and Truth] discussion put forth with great emphasis by Jesus Himself.
A lot of expressed thoughts just to say I like God's precise statement in 1 John 5:3, which I think is John's precise commentary stemming from walking with and following Jesus and hearing things like Jesus stated per John 14:24.

To be precise, at this point I don't think there is "getting into Heaven" apart from abiding Faith/Obedience/Love/Works for those of us who He does not take home soon after truly coming to Biblical Faith in Jesus Christ. I think this compares with the Loss of Salvation thoughts expressed by some here. What He does with perpetual infants in Christ, if there is such a thing, is another topic of discussion.

Hello GDL, nice to see you again. Yes I agree with your post here. I will just add perhaps really the same thing from a different viewpoint from the scriptures as examples if it might be helpful to the discussion. I believe we can even go a step further by saying as Jesus did to Nicodemus unless we are born again by the Spirit into Gods new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-36 and Ezekiel 36:24-27) and receive a new heart by faith in God's Word to love we cannot enter into God's kingdom *John 3:3-7 as those who are born again to love according to John do not make a practice of sin (1 John 3:6-9; 1 John 5:2-4) which is defined in the scriptures as breaking Gods law or not believing and following what God's Word says (1 John 3:4; Romans 14:23).

This was what Jesus was warning us about when he says in Matthew 5:20 unless your righteousness (right doing) exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees you shall in no way enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:20 is interesting because on the outside the Scribes and Pharisees as Jesus taught appeared righteous to men. Outwardly blameless in regards to following God's 10 commandments in order to enter into Gods' kingdom but inwardly according to Jesus, they were like whited sepulchers and dead man bones *Matthew 23:27 full of sin (breaking God's Law) and hypocrisy *Matthew 23:27-28.

In Matthew 5:17-32 Jesus took everything to the next level showing that we need to be cleansed from the inside out in order to enter into His Kingdom, not having the same outward righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees but Jesus applied Gods' law to our very thoughts and feelings. Therefore Jesus came to magnify the law from the inside out quoting Matthew 5:17-32 in fulfillment of *Isaiah 42:21 to show that unless our righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees we can in no way enter into the kingdom of heaven. Jesus is saying the problem runs deeper then outward observance to the 10 commandments. Evil begins in the heart (thoughts and feelings) and unless we receive a new heart to love we cannot enter into God's kingdom. I believe this is what it means to be born again as shown in Romans 6:1-23 and 1 John 3:6-9.

Breaking God's 10 commandments from the heart according to Jesus is what defiles a man *Matthew 15:18-19. Jesus is saying we can be outwardly perfect and blameless like the Scribes and Pharisees but inwardly like dead mans bones *Matthew 23:27-28. Jesus magnified the law from the inside out to show us that we are all sinners in need of a Saviour and that sin originates in the heart (thoughts and feelings). For me Jesus is saying in the above that we need to be cleansed from the inside out through faith in His Word that leads us to walk in His Spirit of obedience to what he says from the inside out *Galatians 5:16; Romans 3:31; Romans 8:4; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; 1 John 5:2-4.

I could possibly keep going here but I think the post will get a bit long so might stop here and it is late my time so it is possible my post may might begin to not make sense unless I can get some rest. My apologies if this is the case now. What are your thoughts to the above?

God bless :)
 
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GDL

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Just to be on the same page this is what I stated: Doing good works for the purpose of getting in heaven will not necessarily get you into heaven without belief, love, faith and obedience which results in good works.

You did not quote me entirely and I guess I don’t understand where you disagree with what I posted.

Apologies. I should have explained why I stopped at "belief." All I intended based upon what I have been saying was the rest of the words are included once Belief/Faith is mentioned.

I've only read some of your posts and just in this thread, so I'm still getting to know more of what you think.

My first check as I read your statement was the word "necessarily." I paused at this word and wondered what you were saying/meaning.

Coupled with the first check, my second check was whether or not you see good works as something that can be done apart from Faith, Love, Obedience to God.

Regarding 1 John 5:3 I think loving God is expressed through obedience. We obey not only because it is a commandment, but because we love which changes our thought from the inside. Do you see it differently?

I don't think 1 John 5:3 says loving God is expressed through obedience. I think it says Love for God is obedience to God - Love IS Obedience - Thus Obedience to God is Love for God. More precisely, Love for God is keeping (guarding, obeying) God's commandments. The verse is equating Love with Obedience. Nitpicking maybe, but that's the way I naturally study. "expressed through" are added words that weaken the equating IMO and I get a check when I read them. Can love for God be expressed through anything other than obedience to God (leaving out Love for one-another at the moment)? Love [for God] is Obedience [to God] is just a succinct statement.

My skill set is street smarts not my writing abilities so sometimes things may get lost in translation. :)

Human communication abilities are weak in general IMO. Losses in translation and unexpressed or unclear intentions are the more general practice for all of us I'm afraid... And what happens if we use a word we both recognize but have differing thoughts of its' meaning when we use it? We think we're agreeing but may well be in disagreement.
 
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GDL

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I could possibly keep going here but I think the post will get a bit long so might stop here and it is late my time so possible I my post may not be making much sense. My apologies if this is the care. What are your thoughts to the above?

Good elaboration. It's always good and a bit rare to see Ez36 brought up, especially 36:27 which shows His intention and His Spirit being for our obedience to Him. So, His work in our rebirth is for our Faith, Love, Obedience, Work as we are discussing.

Thank you.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Apologies. I should have explained why I stopped at "belief." All I intended based upon what I have been saying was the rest of the words are included once Belief/Faith is mentioned.

I've only read some of your posts and just in this thread, so I'm still getting to know more of what you think.

My first check as I read your statement was the word "necessarily." I paused at this word and wondered what you were saying/meaning.

Coupled with the first check, my second check was whether or not you see good works as something that can be done apart from Faith, Love, Obedience to God.



I don't think 1 John 5:3 says loving God is expressed through obedience. I think it says Love for God is obedience to God - Love IS Obedience - Thus Obedience to God is Love for God. More precisely, Love for God is keeping (guarding, obeying) God's commandments. The verse is equating Love with Obedience. Nitpicking maybe, but that's the way I naturally study. "expressed through" are added words that weaken the equating IMO and I get a check when I read them. Can love for God be expressed through anything other than obedience to God (leaving out Love for one-another at the moment)? Love [for God] is Obedience [to God] is just a succinct statement.



Human communication abilities are weak in general IMO. Losses in translation and unexpressed or unclear intentions are the more general practice for all of us I'm afraid... And what happens if we use a word we both recognize but have differing thoughts of its' meaning when we use it? We think we're agreeing but may well be in disagreement.

I agree with what your saying here. However, when using the words "love is expressed through obedience etc" I do not personally see a problem here if you consider the context it is mainly used in and who it is shared with. I agree 100% with what you are writing here but in the context of some discussions with others their idea is that God's love is some sort of feeling for God and man separated from obedience to God's Word as if obedience is a dirty word when connected with love and faith. So using the word "expressed" to me is simply just another way of saying love is not separate to obedience to Gods' Word or love to God is obedience to God from the heart (inside out). It is always refreshing talking with you GDL. In all of our past conversations I feel I am talking to a kindred spirit

God bless :)
 
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GDL

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This is a nice devotional thanks for sharing. I have expressed similar beliefs in my posts, although not nearly as eloquent.

I've mentioned to her that I'd like to see her posts in another section. Much of what she writes are really not devotionals as I view them, but very direct writings regarding Salvation. I know she doesn't want to debate. I don't blame her. Devotionals seems to be a good category to keep the discussions limited.
 
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GDL

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I agree with what your saying here. However, when using the words "love is expressed through obedience to God's Word" I do not personally see a problem here if you consider the context it is used in and who it is shared with. I agree 100% with what you are writing here but in the context of some discussions with others their idea is that God's love is a feeling separated from obedience as if obedience is a dirty word when connected with love. So using the word "expressed" to me is simply just another way of saying love is not separate to obedience to Gods' Word or love to God is obedience to God. It is always refreshing talking with you GDL. In all of our conversations I feel I am talking to a kindred spirit

Understood and I can see what's intended, but I have to think about it and consider the source as well as I'm able based in context and who is writing. Still causes a check in me as I read through a writing about what He says. "Is" and "expressed through" are not necessarily the same and thus require for me more thought and explanation to verify what's intended.

Thank you for your kind closing words. I took a long hiatus from this site & not sure yet if I'll stay. I came back solely to make a comment to a post from Sue Love in the Devotional section due to an email I received. Glancing through the threads briefly, I saw your identity on this one. Appreciating our past discussions, I clicked in only because of that. Thanks again for your work.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Understood and I can see what's intended, but I have to think about it and consider the source as well as I'm able based in context and who is writing. Still causes a check in me as I read through a writing about what He says. "Is" and "expressed through" are not necessarily the same and thus require for me more thought and explanation to verify what's intended.

Thank you for your kind closing words. I took a long hiatus from this site & not sure yet if I'll stay. I came back solely to make a comment to a post from Sue Love in the Devotional section due to an email I received. Glancing through the threads briefly, I saw your identity on this one. Appreciating our past discussions, I clicked in only because of that. Thanks again for your work.
I hope you can consider staying GDL. I think many will benefit from your posts. I noticed I had not seen you around for a while so it was a nice surprise to see you pop in here. So I do sincerely mean what I say and hope you will consider staying around. I think many people could be blessed by your ministry here. But for me now I best be getting some rest. So happy to see you again. Good night for now dear friend from the other side of the world.

God bless :wave:
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
You're going to have to prove this false charge before I'll believe anything else you post.
No false charge which is why you did not quote me saying I don't have faith in Christ only myself. You said that not me and that is false.
I addressed your post exactly.

I do find it odd that you think doing the will of God is having faith in yourself and not Christ, but you are free to believe what you want.
Well, that's the problem with your view. You SAID "when you are doing the will of God". That shows that you are trusting in WHEN you are doing the will of God.

And this is a lifestyle thing. Not a faith thing, unless it is a faith in WHEN you are doing the will of God.

But, let's get back to the real and only issue here. Your belief in a conditional salvation is based on your FLAWED understanding of John 10:27, as a condition for NEVER perishing in v.28.

Since there are NO WORDS that create a conditional clause, such as "IF ... THEN..." you cannot say that v.27 is a condition for anything.

In fact, v.27 is a DESCRIPTION of what Jesus' sheep DO. That's all it is.

Unless you can admit your claim about v.27, you will NOT be able to properly understand v.28. A flawed view of v.27 leads to a FLAWED conclusion of v.28.

It is that simple.

Are you willing to admit that v.27 is NOT a condition?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Apologies. I should have explained why I stopped at "belief." All I intended based upon what I have been saying was the rest of the words are included once Belief/Faith is mentioned.

I've only read some of your posts and just in this thread, so I'm still getting to know more of what you think.

My first check as I read your statement was the word "necessarily." I paused at this word and wondered what you were saying/meaning.

Coupled with the first check, my second check was whether or not you see good works as something that can be done apart from Faith, Love, Obedience to God.



I don't think 1 John 5:3 says loving God is expressed through obedience. I think it says Love for God is obedience to God - Love IS Obedience - Thus Obedience to God is Love for God. More precisely, Love for God is keeping (guarding, obeying) God's commandments. The verse is equating Love with Obedience. Nitpicking maybe, but that's the way I naturally study. "expressed through" are added words that weaken the equating IMO and I get a check when I read them. Can love for God be expressed through anything other than obedience to God (leaving out Love for one-another at the moment)? Love [for God] is Obedience [to God] is just a succinct statement.



Human communication abilities are weak in general IMO. Losses in translation and unexpressed or unclear intentions are the more general practice for all of us I'm afraid... And what happens if we use a word we both recognize but have differing thoughts of its' meaning when we use it? We think we're agreeing but may well be in disagreement.
No apologies needed, I understood what you meant after I had a chance to wake up and re-read your post and find a moment of quiet to reply. I appreciate your reply and you have given me a few things to think about. When I wrote the word "necessarily" I paused when I wrote that because I do not want to be presumptuous on the judgment or grace Jesus might give. I know there is clear scripture that faith/love/obedience is tied together, and I would also like to include baptism but if you have faith/love/obedience baptism is a given. That said Jesus will be our righteous Judge and it seems the thief on the cross could be an example of a possible exception, as we don't know much about him, if he was baptized. We know before death, he showed faith in Jesus and believed. Please do not get me wrong I am by no means advocating that that it all we need and "today" if we hear His voice (the Truth) we should not harden our hearts, it's a terrible idea to think we can do what we want and wait until the last minute to surrender to Jesus when no one knows what the future holds, and I truly believe if you love God with all your heart you will want to obey Him, because it is in your heart and mind and when I say obey, I mean obey on God's terms, not the one created by man for convenience purposes. I see many posters advocate only 9 out of 10 commandments or not believe in some of the other laws, like the heath guidelines that was given to us for our own good.

At any rate, that was my mindset when I added the word "necessarily" and I think I paused for a reason because it shouldn't be in there and I appreciate you bringing this to my attention. God's Word is not negotiable and if you are led by the Spirit, which I pray daily, He will teach you all things. We are all on different paths of our journey, I was raised in the church but went away for a long time, I never stopped believing, but I didn't have a personal relationship with Jesus. I am so thankful for the Holy Spirit convicting me of my sins and showed me how I was not obeying, and I am so thankful I finally listened. I have a lot of catching up to do for all the years I missed but I praise God daily and do my best daily to make up for all the lost time.

I agree with @LoveGodsWord I hope you stick around; your posts are refreshing.

God bless
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I've mentioned to her that I'd like to see her posts in another section. Much of what she writes are really not devotionals as I view them, but very direct writings regarding Salvation. I know she doesn't want to debate. I don't blame her. Devotionals seems to be a good category to keep the discussions limited.
I don't blame her either. There are some other areas on CF that she might be interested in posting, like the 7day safehouse or other groups similar where the debating is really limited. I did really enjoy her write up on the devotional and sometimes it good to post in places like the general forum, but choose not to debate just to reach more people. Anyway, just some thoughts. Thanks again for sharing.
 
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GDL

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No apologies needed, I understood what you meant after I had a chance to wake up and re-read your post and find a moment of quiet to reply. I appreciate your reply and you have given me a few things to think about. When I wrote the word "necessarily" I paused when I wrote that because I do not want to be presumptuous on the judgment or grace Jesus might give.

Thank you for this post. It was obviously thought out and a nice and informative read.

It's fascinating to read you say that you paused when you wrote that word. IMO these are the checks in spirit that we get with Him being in us leading and guiding us to degrees that many of us tend to ignore or get distracted or hurried to disregard. This is similar to the check I mentioned about reading that same word. So, you got a check and overrode it, which caused me to get a check and send it back to you!!! Thanks for the extra work! :) The older I get, and the longer I remain in The Faith, the more I try to pay attention to those pauses.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to always heed what He's telling us and finally realize how intricately He is involved with those who Love Him in Truth/Believe in Him with Biblical Faith/Obey Him/do those Works He created for us to do in Christ Jesus. Imagine the efficiencies when He sets His creation aright once and for all and we're functioning on full capacities with Him as He originally intended and designed...
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Thank you for this post. It was obviously thought out and a nice and informative read.

It's fascinating to read you say that you paused when you wrote that word. IMO these are the checks in spirit that we get with Him being in us leading and guiding us to degrees that many of us tend to ignore or get distracted or hurried to disregard. This is similar to the check I mentioned about reading that same word. So, you got a check and overrode it, which caused me to get a check and send it back to you!!! Thanks for the extra work! :) The older I get, and the longer I remain in The Faith, the more I try to pay attention to those pauses.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to always heed what He's telling us and finally realize how intricately He is involved with those who Love Him in Truth/Believe in Him with Biblical Faith/Obey Him/do those Works He created for us to do in Christ Jesus. Imagine the efficiencies when He sets His creation aright once and for all and we're functioning on full capacities with Him as He originally intended and designed...
It's so true, it's that small still voice! I appreciate you receiving the check and sending it back to me. It's a great reminder to listen to that small voice. Something I will spend some time contemplating in prayer.

I am looking forward to that day when everything is how He originally intended! It will be glorious!

God bless. :)
 
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LoveGodsWord

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It's so true, it's that small still voice! I appreciate you receiving the check and sending it back to me. It's a great reminder to listen to that small voice. Something I will spend some time contemplating in prayer.

I am looking forward to that day when everything is how He originally intended! It will be glorious!

God bless. :)
We get that still small voice from Gods Spirit through the scriptures *John 6:63.

God bless
 
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LoveGodsWord

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We also get eternal security through the Scriptures. John 5:24 and John 10:28.
Yes you keep saying this even after you have been shown all through out this thread that those scriptures do not say what you think they do.

Take Care.
 
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Clare73

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Hi Clare:

What's the specific point you're trying to draw out here? Especially re: 13:10b.

Thanks!
Long time no see!

Looks like I missed this one. . .sure wish I had seen it sooner.

Point: Under love/grace vs. under law.

Romans 13:8-10 = Love/grace fulfills the law "and every other commandment there may be"(Romans 13:8-10); ergo, we are not under law-keeping (Galatians 3:25, Galatians 4:21, Galatians 5:18; Romans 6:14; 1 Corinthians 9:20)

Assertion = The Law fulfills love; ergo, we are under law keeping to fulfill love/grace.
 
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