Womens roles in the church

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All Glory To God

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I have attended Roman Catholic services as well as services at conservative independent churches, none of which ordain women. Unlike you I don’t think of the priest or minister as being a “false pastor,” even though I disagree with that church’s view of women. I enjoy the service and worship the Lord.

Is this an attempt to tell me what your idea of Christian-to-Christian love is? Can you try again without bringing me into it because I'm genuinely curious.
 
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Is this an attempt to tell me what your idea of Christian-to-Christian love is? Can you try again without bringing me into it because I'm genuinely curious.
I think I adequately explained it.
 
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Then the "elect lady" ministering in 1 John was also sinning? John was giving this woman explicit instructions as to whom she was to "receive" into the fellowship of this house church, and warnings of whom not to "receive" into the fellowship. John was also commending the spiritual growth of her "children" for walking in truth. This was more than this woman serving coffee and doughnuts in her home. This "elect lady" had "her children" meeting in the assembly of her house church, just as John had "my little children" in the assembly who followed him in the Lord's doctrine. This "elect lady" also had an "elect sister", who also had "children" of her own assembly as well, passing greetings to the other church assembly.

Wrong book. The elect lady is 2 John. And she is not a pastor. The reason John is telling her to be cautious about her company is they exercised hospitality back then. And John does not want (2 John 10) Lady to take in people with false doctrine.
 
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Going to other denominational churches other than your own?

Of course. When I travel I enjoy visiting other churches, including, as I said before, some non-denominational churches and churches of other denominations. Of course, you don’t visit churches that have female pastors. I do, and as a result I have attended some amazing services and met some very nice people. There is nothing wrong with a female pastor. As I said before, my church has had two female pastors over the years. Both were wonderful.
 
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Paidiske

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I am not a Greek speaker and go by what the English translation says to be consistent. Unless you can prove to me you are a Greek speaking person, with expert ability I will reject your claim as I do with any other ''back to the Greek'' individuals.

You make this claim, I want to see if you have the credentials.

Nobody today speaks the Greek of the New Testament; it is, in effect, a dead dialect. (Modern Greek has changed considerably from the Greek of 2,000 years ago). However, I have studied Koine Greek (the Greek of the NT) to a very high level as part of my masters degree, and am quite competent to read and translate passages of the NT. (My denomination considers a degree of proficiency in Koine Greek a necessary requirement for ordination).

No I don’t do what you charge me of. When any believer speaks the word of God and lives in Christ led by the Spirit they are in the authority of the Lord

consider something I wrote here

Two kinds of Authority

There are two kinds of authority, official authority and spiritual authority in the word.

An official positional authority is seen in a static office. This kinds of authority will be set up and in place no matter what the actions of the persons who hold that office. This kind of official authority is a set, positional authority. The person who is in this authority holds this place of “authority” as long as they are in that office.
But spiritual authority or the authority in the word from the Lord is rooted in spiritual life and connection to Christ the head, which all the body must be under. This kind of authority is only given or communicated when a person speaks or lives in God’s life in Christ and has Christ working in them effectually, and this is as they live in the word and deed. For without Jesus we can do nothing. If we can do nothing without Him, them what authority does any believer have in them self? And since all believers are to live in Christ and walk in Him, then all believers have this authority.
If all believers have the life of the Spirit, they are capable of communicating this spiritual authority in Christ. And so all believers are to be submitted or subject one to another because Christ works in all parts of the body and we are all members one of another. The mature believers will have more weight or soundness in the word and life as they have been established an settled (Heb. 5:14). But all can have the Word of Christ dwelling richly in them (Colossians 3:16 KJV).
Spiritual authority in Christ and His word finds it’s source in Jesus Christ’s immediate direction and leading by the Spirit. All those who are led by the Spirit are the Sons of God. This is in contrast to the static office of an official or positional authority, where it is not dependent on the leading of the Spirit.
To have a spiritual authority, is not rooted in a person or a position. It flows from Christ Himself in all the body as he makes us perfect and works in us and effectually gives all the measure he wills. Jesus has all authority and is the source of this.
In an official positional authority or a static authority, the authority is vested in an individual and a place he holds. For example Kings and rulers of the gentiles, or also in the Popes of Catholic church who went out of the word of God had their own official authorities among them. They would give them self power to authorize others in their false Gentile authorities and rule over others in such places and static offices. Jesus rebuked the Gentile lordship, and the rulers who have dominion and authority over others as not being the type of authority we are to have in the church (Matthew 10:42,43 KJV). Yet the catholic Church did not have God's spiritual authority and all believers were right to reject this. The cry of false authority against the word of God was one of the reformers cry along with the doctrines of the scriptures.
Only when believers have Jesus Christ in them who directs a person to word or action does that person exercise authority. This is what we are to be persuaded and exhorted and convinced and taught by. This leading of the Spirit in elder/overseers as well if they abide in this walk and this will be very profitable for the saints, for when an elder/overseers holds fast this faithful word he is able to have sound doctrine and exhort and convince the gainsayers and feed others (Titus 1:9 KJV). In this they will HAVE the rule, which is the word of God and God is governing in their heart and as they are in Christ. they (as all believers) live and move in that sphere of influence in them as they walk in the new creation (Galatians 6:15,16 KJV) as many as as walk according to this rule, peace will be on them.
Elder/overseers have a function in the body as those who watch over and feed exhorting and convincing gainsayers etc. This oversight is recognized as they live in the faithful word and their influence is by example as well. But this is not in a simple static position or like the Gentile rulers where those that are great among them are over them in authority.
Jesus Christ is the the Head of the church (Colossians 2:6,9,10 KJV) and we are the body (Ephesians 1:22,23 KJV), if He tells a part of the body to move and act and speak etc, then that part of the body that moves has authority in him. as the Head. The body has NO authority of itself apart from the head. I hope that helps to understand this distinction a bit more? If you all could see this difference many issues could be clarified.
Spiritual authority in Christ is represented and conferred by Him. If a man tries to be in an official positional static authority in the church and rest his authority on that, that can create an abuse of authority, and if he speaks outside of the word then he has no authority in Christ. In the church we are not to be UNDER such rulers over us anyway.
Those in and official positional authority such as Kings and Governors, political men and police etc, must be obeyed as long as they do not go against God's truth and will (Romans 13 etc)
But when a believer speaks Gods word to others in the life and spirit and they walk in the word and reflect the example to others, they do not press others to obey them in their person, but the word of God in their words and life. It is a subtle distinction but an important one. And those who know the true spiritual authority in the body must also themselves be in the spirit. This authority is known only in Christ.
A person can be in an official positional authority and not be righteous or in faith even and still they have that authority. How many Kings have done evil and Governments etc and still retained that official authority?
Spiritual authority is only seen when Christ is working in us. Official authority is seen no matter what the man does and they will still be in that place, unless others take them out of that place.


And consider Luthers words

“Facing church officials and an excited assembly of people, Luther refused. He said in part, “I do not accept the authority of Popes and councils. My conscience is captive to the word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything.”

This is a very long post, which I am disinclined to pick apart in detail, not least because it's more and more off topic to this thread. In short, there are some ideas here I agree with, and some I take issue with, but the biggest issue as I see it is that your own position seems internally inconsistent.

usurp means to act if one self or to dominate

And no ordained woman acts of herself (it is the authority of the church which authorises her ministry which she exercises). And domination is wrong no matter who does it.
 
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Wrong book. The elect lady is 2 John.

Thank you for noting the typo. I'm typing in a hurry. I'll change it.

But this "receiving" that this "elect lady" was doing was not merely hospitality, such as "Hey, welcome, we're having dinner, come on in." This was the very same kind of "receiving" that Diotrephes was NOT doing in 3 John. Instead of "receiving" the brethren, Diotrephes was "casting them out of the church" (3 John 1:9-10). This is more than just the host of the home saying, "Oops, sorry, you'll have to leave - we don't have enough pot roast to go around."

Though the power-hungry Diotrephes was in error as to whom he was casting out of the assembly, the church assembly's task actually was to be vigilant as to whom it accepted in fellowship. This is what the "elect lady" was being instructed by John to do in the assembly meeting in her home. In those days of church persecution with even family and friends betraying one another, it was best to be careful.
 
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MOD HAT ON

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From the SOP: Do not identify a group of members or a theological viewpoint with a derogatory or inflammatory label.

MOD HAT OFF
 
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God desires Holiness (1 Peter 1:16) in his people, because he is Holy.

Yes, he does.
That has nothing to do with women being called to serve him as Ministers/pastors.

Sure he has. Priests (Leviticus 21:16-24) had to be without blemish to approach God. So people where excluded from the offices back then as well.

That's OT.
God doesn't expect his people to be perfect/good enough before we come to him, and does not wait till we are perfect/good enough before we can serve him. Otherwise no one ever would.
Christ died for sinners, not the flawless; and he told us that the healthy do not need a doctor.

Jesus was a precious offering (1 Peter 1:19) without blemish.

He was without sin - yes, certainly.

So where are you getting the idea that Gods standard is this feeble unfit miserable quality?

I never said that. The words, "God's standard is this feeble, unfit, miserable quality" are your words; not mine.
I said that God chooses the weak to shame the strong, 1 Corinthians 1:27. Abraham became a father when he was 100 - not when he was a super fit 18 year old. Jacob was the one of the patriarchs and the father of the leaders of the 12 tribes of Israel - yet he was a liar and a deceiver. Moses, who was slow of speech, led the nation out of Egypt when he was an 80 year old shepherd who was wanted for murder - not when he was a young Egyptian, with strength, wealth and youth on his side. It was not Jesse's oldest, strong, handsome son who was anointed as King, but David. What did God say to Samuel about that? Man looks at the outward appearance but God looks at the heart, 1 Samuel 16:7.
Esther was married to a pagan king, Ruth was a foreigner, Amos was a shepherd, Isaiah said that he was a man of unclean lips, Jonah was disobedient. Jesus was born to a young, unmarried woman, in a stable - instead of to a royal princess, in a palace surrounded by wealth, servants and so on.
So if you want to know where I get the idea that God may choose people who are too young/old, not experienced and not morally perfect - try Scripture.

He desires the best. He deserves the best!

And yet he knows that his flawed creation will never, and cannot, be perfect - which is why Christ died for sinners and not for the perfect.

I just think you don't understand scripture and ultimately God and follow your denominations teaching.

I just think you're wrong.
I don't understand YOUR interpretation of Scripture, that's for sure.

I don't begrudge women's salvation. The more people who are saved the better. Just don't pastor because you are sinning when you do that.

In your opinion. God, and thousands of men, disagree with you.
And my point was that female Ministers are saved, and you'll see them in heaven. All those who are blessed by the ministry of female ministers are saved too.
 
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Yes, he does.
That has nothing to do with women being called to serve him as Ministers/pastors.



That's OT.
God doesn't expect his people to be perfect/good enough before we come to him, and does not wait till we are perfect/good enough before we can serve him. Otherwise no one ever would.
Christ died for sinners, not the flawless; and he told us that the healthy do not need a doctor.



He was without sin - yes, certainly.



I never said that. The words, "God's standard is this feeble, unfit, miserable quality" are your words; not mine.
I said that God chooses the weak to shame the strong, 1 Corinthians 1:27. Abraham became a father when he was 100 - not when he was a super fit 18 year old. Jacob was the one of the patriarchs and the father of the leaders of the 12 tribes of Israel - yet he was a liar and a deceiver. Moses, who was slow of speech, led the nation out of Egypt when he was an 80 year old shepherd who was wanted for murder - not when he was a young Egyptian, with strength, wealth and youth on his side. It was not Jesse's oldest, strong, handsome son who was anointed as King, but David. What did God say to Samuel about that? Man looks at the outward appearance but God looks at the heart, 1 Samuel 16:7.
Esther was married to a pagan king, Ruth was a foreigner, Amos was a shepherd, Isaiah said that he was a man of unclean lips, Jonah was disobedient. Jesus was born to a young, unmarried woman, in a stable - instead of to a royal princess, in a palace surrounded by wealth, servants and so on.
So if you want to know where I get the idea that God may choose people who are too young/old, not experienced and not morally perfect - try Scripture.



And yet he knows that his flawed creation will never, and cannot, be perfect - which is why Christ died for sinners and not for the perfect.



I just think you're wrong.
I don't understand YOUR interpretation of Scripture, that's for sure.



In your opinion. God, and thousands of men, disagree with you.
And my point was that female Ministers are saved, and you'll see them in heaven. All those who are blessed by the ministry of female ministers are saved too.

I have yet to visit any church that was not filled with sinners, and that includes the pastor. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
 
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I have yet to visit any church that was not filled with sinners, and that includes the pastor. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Yes, thank goodness we don't have to be perfect before we can come to God and be used by him.
 
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"Usurp" means to take a position of power or importance, illegally or by force. I don't see too many women trying to take a position of power or importance, illegally or by force.

BTW, it's now 2,000 years since Paul wrote these instructions to a single church that was having internal problems. He also wrote, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28

Is there something about this that you can't understand?
No “usurp authority” means this

“from a compound of 846 and an obsolete hentes (a worker); to act of oneself, i.e. (figuratively) dominate:--usurp authority over.“

Also I have answered the verse about neither male nor female many times. I ask you are you a male or female? If you say one or the other then you are a make or female in this world. In the spirit, in Christ we are neither male nor female but in the natural world we are make or female in Christ we are part of the one body of Christ.

Paul often show the different roles of male and female in the world and talks of wives submitting to their husbands in everything he even says Christ is the head of man and the man is the head of the woman.

There’s no way out of these clear scriptures by trying hard to avoid them or change their clear meaning

Ephesians 5: 23. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.”

Now imagine a family where the husband ruled well his own home and was a Ekder/overseer (1 Timothy ?3) and his wife was submitting to him and subject to him in meekness and a godly way. Then the church regularly met in his home and suddenly the wife took oversight and judged and corrected him in front of their children and the church, but during the week she did no such thing. Can you see the confusion that would bring? And the confusion your doctrine brings? The family is very important to God and do the family in order in gatherings is a great example. But out of that order causes confusion.
 
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LoveofTruth

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LoveofTruth, I'm not sure you know the difference between "quietness" (hesychia) and utter "silence" without speech (sige - as in Revelation 8:1). There is a difference, you know, even though the KJV translators didn't recognize it in their translation work.

ALL of the believers, regardless of gender, were to "study to be quiet, (hesychazein) and to do your own business..." (1 Thessalonians 4:11). This was not to render them all voiceless and mute. The believers were to concentrate on having a calm spirit, and to stay busily employed at the business God had given them to do.

This was also the same "quiet" (hesychia) that Paul was urging for these women in 1 Timothy 2:11-12 to have. Paul meant for them to have a CALM SPIRIT and a peaceful personality that was not combative, or verbally abusive of the men in the congregation. It would also be reprehensible for men to be of this combative spirit also within the assembly. After all, this was one of the commandments for the believers - "to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men" (Titus 3:2).
No, you are trying hard to avoid the clear scriptures and their meaning and trying hard to change them

the word “silence” in 1 Cor 14 means

“from 4602; to keep silent (transitively or intransitively):--keep close (secret, silence), hold peace.“

the word “speak” means

“a prolonged form of an otherwise obsolete verb; to talk, i.e. utter words:--preach, say, speak (after), talk, tell, utter. Compare 3004.”
 
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No “usurp authority” means this

“from a compound of 846 and an obsolete hentes (a worker); to act of oneself, i.e. (figuratively) dominate:--usurp authority over.“. Is that common in your church?

Also I have answered the verse about neither male nor female many times. I ask you are you a make or female? If you say one or the other then you are a make or female in this world. In the spirit, in Christ we are neither male nor female but in the natural world we are make or female in Christ we are part of the one body of Christ.

Paul often show the different roles of male and female in the world and talks of wives submitting to their husbands in everything he even says Christ is the head of man and the man is the head of the woman.

There’s no way out of these clear scriptures by trying hard to avoid them or change their clear meaning

Ephesians 5: 23. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.”

Now imagine a family where the husband ruled well his own home and was a Ekder/overseer (1 Timothy ?3) and his wife was submitting to him and subject to him in meekness and a godly way. Then the church regularly met in his home and suddenly the wife took oversight and judged and corrected him in front of their children and the church, but during the week she did no such thing. Can you see the confusion that would bring? And the confusion your doctrine brings? The family is very important to God and do the family in order in gatherings is a great example. But out of that order causes confusion.

I’ve never attended a church service where the pastor “judged and corrected” a specific member of the congregation during a service. Is that common practice in your church?

And exactly what is the source of the definitions you keep offering?
 
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the word “speak” means

“a prolonged form of an otherwise obsolete verb; to talk, i.e. utter words:--preach, say, speak (after), talk, tell, utter. Compare 3004.”

Paul never forbad women to speak in the assembly. In fact, he gave specific instructions in 1 Corinthians 14:26-33 as to how everyone in the congregation (women not excepted) were to do this. Women were to pray and prophesy in the church. Those that prophesied were not to do it in solitary, but were to "speak unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort." (1 Cor. 14:3). That was the intended purpose of the gift, which women were also given . Joel 2:28 said that both "your sons and your daughters shall prophesy..." And we know that Peter on Pentecost said that this very prediction of Joel's was then taking place in those days (Acts 2:17).

If God opened the doors wide for prophesying, and poured out His Spirit on ALL flesh (men and women and Jew and Gentile included), then we are not at liberty to slam that door shut once more in our generation.
 
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I’ve never attended a church service where the pastor “judged and corrected” a specific member of the congregation during a service. Is that common practice in your church?

And exactly what is the source of the definitions you keep offering?
Well it’s common practice in the church as we see in scripture

1 Timothy 5: 20.” Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.”

Galatians 2: 11. But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.”

and

“ 1 Corinthians 14: 24. But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 25. And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.”

you may want to re-examine your entire church order
 
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