Womens roles in the church

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We are not discussing burning the anabaptists.
But it is a view that Luther held because he was a man of his time. It wasn't just Luther; it was the accepted view then.
 
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All Glory To God

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I'm sure lots of sea lions would agree with you, but I'm more of a polar bear fan myself.


I don't know what this means but is sounds sarcastic. A sarcastic response to a sincere comment. This is another reason why I don't think Liberal Churchs are doing the right thing, their people claim to be love and act anything but that.
 
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trophy33

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You really need reasons as to why he was wrong on burning witches and Anabaptists? I would think that the fact that people then were killing innocents for reason would be sufficient.
We are not discussing burning anyone. Stick to the point - women in the church leadership.
 
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trophy33

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But it is a view that Luther held because he was a man of his time. It wasn't just Luther; it was the accepted view then.
Irrelevant for the current topic. Why was he wrong regarding the verse in the Bible about "neither male or female"? And why was he wrong not allowing women in the church leadership?

Or, do you want to say that he was wrong in everything, because he was wrong in something?
 
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bekkilyn

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I don't know what this means but is sounds sarcastic. A sarcastic response to a sincere comment. This is another reason why I don't think Liberal Churchs are doing the right thing, their people claim to be love and act anything but that.

No idea why you brought up liberal churches with me. I am a theological conservative. I do know that Jesus warned us to beware of the false prophets who come in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. Shepherds even in Jesus' day knew how to take care of these sorts of wolves and it wasn't by asking them nicely not to hurt the sheep, patting them on the head, and sending them on their way with a participation trophy.
 
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We are not discussing burning anyone. Stick to the point - women in the church leadership.
But the point is the same. Luther was a man of his time. He was willing to elevate women into the priesthood of all believers, but he wasn't willing to go beyond that. John Wesley was willing to make that jump, but there is a 200-year time difference between the two of them.
 
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Irrelevant for the current topic. Why was he wrong regarding the verse in the Bible about "neither male or female"? And why was he wrong not allowing women in the church leadership?

Or, do you want to say that he was wrong in everything, because he was wrong in something?
Why would I say Luther was wrong in everything when he was obviously right in many matters? He was certainly right in the concept of the priesthood of all believers. He was certainly right in translating the Bible into the common tongue. Perhaps you are not aware that Luther believed that our pets would be with us in heaven, something that some people even today do not believe. He certainly had very good taste in beer--his wife brewed it for him.
 
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pescador

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In some things its different, in some things its very similar.

But what is the reasoning regarding the issue here? That our current view is superior because its ours?

No, of course not. But we live in an entirely different society -- at least in the Western Judeo-Christian world -- than the one that existed two thousand years ago. Women have an entirely different status than the role of "obedient teenage wife/servant" of NT times. Aside from some very few physical tasks, there is nothing that women are incapable of doing in this day and age. That is reality.

God's Word is eternal. It needs to be understood spiritually. It applies to all generations, but it is not to be understood as "the law", which is external. Our current view is neither superior nor inferior; it is what it is.
 
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Strong in Him

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If I understand your system, it goes by who is called and no-one can bind the spirit.

No, it's a long process; no one says "you're called by God and we're not allowed to argue with that". The person may well be called by God to do something, and thinks that 'something' is ministry as a Presbyter (Minister) in the Methodist church. The church may not agree, so the person will be turned down. That applies to men and women equally.
I know a man that happened to; he is now a Minister in another denomination.

My point was; no one who says "I believe God may be calling me to do this", is told "ok, fine; here's a dog collar".
It's a long process involving interview, discernment, prayer, more interviews, more prayer.

My view is God has already told us in Pauls books, who is eligible to be called and going beyond that is sin because it's disobedience. You will say your interpretation is different. Ok.

It is, because he hasn't told us who is "eligible". Just as he never had a checklist for who might be "eligible" to be a prophet, or apostle.

As I said earlier, God chooses whoever he pleases, and he chooses the weak to shame the strong.

Thankfully for us, it's never God who says, "you're too young/old/disabled to serve me; you're not eligible." It's people who say that. To our shame, we judge and discriminate between people who have all been made in the image of God - and tell God that he may not choose someone to do his will and further his kingdom.

Thankfully, also, this is not a salvation issue.
Just don't be too disappointed when you meet former female Ministers in heaven.
 
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LoveofTruth

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The much-debated text of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is not even Paul's commands to the church. It was a short quote from the Corinthian church sent to him in a letter asking Paul's advice on certain matters. This text in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is Paul quoting a brief excerpt from that Corinthian letter written to him earlier. Paul then responds with scorn and a stern rebuke for the men in that church; telling them NOT to forbid speaking in tongues for women.

Because people have gotten confused on this point, they have mistakenly presumed that this was Paul's opinion in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 that women should keep silent in the church. Instead, it was actually the legalistic believers in the Corinthian church who were fabricating that artificial command out of traditional rabbinical oral laws of the time, combined with some gender bias. Paul firmly squashed their opinion on this subject by countering it in 1 Corinthians 14:36-40.
Totally wrong here , I will try later to share what I see in this section.

this is not a debated section except for those who don’t want to silence women in any area.
 
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God never gave any command in His law for women to be silently voiceless - ever - under any period of history. A tradition to this effect has developed which has been based on the mistaken views expressed by those legalists in the excerpt from the Corinthian church letter which Paul quoted. They were wrong, as can be discovered by a close examination of Paul's words in this context, and by comparing it to Paul's language in this entire book of 1 Corinthians.
 
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LoveofTruth

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This is something I’ve been confused about for a while, I can’t deny what the Bible says about it, but it seems like God is favoring men over women.
And what about the judge Deborah? Was she not “ruling” over men in a way?
No she wasn’t , it was God speaking first person through her .this is not the woman speaking but God. And as I said women can prophesy as we read in scripture (Acts 2, 1 Cor 11,etc)
 
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LoveofTruth

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Does anyone else notice that we are hearing the same thing over and over? We are told that Junia was not an apostle, yet scripture tells us the she was “outstanding among the apostles.” Mary, the first person to preach the good news of the risen Christ, is dismissed as not preaching. It is denied that Phoebe was a deacon. No, women who are ordained are neither lying nor deceived as was claimed in Post 947.
1 Timothy 2: 9. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10. But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”

usurp means to act if one self or to dominate
 
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LoveofTruth

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God never gave any command in His law for women to be silently voiceless - ever - under any period of history. A tradition to this effect has developed which has been based on the mistaken views expressed by those legalists in the excerpt from the Corinthian church letter which Paul quoted. They were wrong, as can be discovered by a close examination of Paul's words in this context, and by comparing it to Paul's language in this entire book of 1 Corinthians.
1 Timothy 2: 9. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10. But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”

to usurp means to act of one self to dominate
 
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1 Timothy 2: 9. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10. But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”

usurp means to act if one self or to dominate
Pasting in the same response to multiple posts does nothing to help build your case. You didn’t address anything that I raised.

Paul was most probably addressing a specific situation, not establishing a rule for all times. Tell me, do women speak in your church? Do they ask questions in classes?

And yes, I know what the word usurp means.

Now, try addressing the points I raised.
 
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1 Timothy 2: 9. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10. But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”

usurp means to act if one self or to dominate

"Usurp" means to take a position of power or importance, illegally or by force. I don't see too many women trying to take a position of power or importance, illegally or by force.

BTW, it's now 2,000 years since Paul wrote these instructions to a single church that was having internal problems. He also wrote, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28

Is there something about this that you can't understand?
 
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LoveofTruth, I'm not sure you know the difference between "quietness" (hesychia) and utter "silence" without speech (sige - as in Revelation 8:1). There is a difference, you know, even though the KJV translators didn't recognize it in their translation work.

ALL of the believers, regardless of gender, were to "study to be quiet, (hesychazein) and to do your own business..." (1 Thessalonians 4:11). This was not to render them all voiceless and mute. The believers were to concentrate on having a calm spirit, and to stay busily employed at the business God had given them to do.

This was also the same "quiet" (hesychia) that Paul was urging for these women in 1 Timothy 2:11-12 to have. Paul meant for them to have a CALM SPIRIT and a peaceful personality that was not combative, or verbally abusive of the men in the congregation. It would also be reprehensible for men to be of this combative spirit also within the assembly. After all, this was one of the commandments for the believers - "to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men" (Titus 3:2).
 
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All Glory To God

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As I said earlier, God chooses whoever he pleases, and he chooses the weak to shame the strong.

God desires Holiness (1 Peter 1:16) in his people, because he is Holy.

Thankfully for us, it's never God who says, "you're too young/old/disabled to serve me; you're not eligible." It's people who say that. To our shame, we judge and discriminate between people who have all been made in the image of God - and tell God that he may not choose someone to do his will and further his kingdom.

Sure he has. Priests (Leviticus 21:16-24) had to be without blemish to approach God. So people where excluded from the offices back then as well. It's the same God. Jesus was a precious offering (1 Peter 1:19) without blemish. So where are you getting the idea that Gods standard is this feeble unfit miserable quality? He desires the best. He deserves the best! If he didn't he would accept human works salvation, rather than Christs perfect propitiation. I just think you don't understand scripture and ultimately God and follow your denominations teaching.


Thankfully, also, this is not a salvation issue.
Just don't be too disappointed when you meet former female Ministers in heaven.

I don't begrudge women's salvation. The more people who are saved the better. Just don't pastor because you are sinning when you do that.
 
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It's not loving of me to the false pastor to sit through a service when I think the person is prohibited by God from doing that. When I believe it is sinning and so everything flowing from that will not be Holy. And it's not loving to myself or the other people to tell lies that I think the person is doing Gods will when in fact I think it is sinning.

What do Christian love look like to you, for your fellow brothers and sisters? Serious question.

I have attended Roman Catholic services as well as services at conservative independent churches, none of which ordain women. Unlike you I don’t think of the priest or minister as being a “false pastor,” even though I disagree with that church’s view of women. I enjoy the service and worship the Lord.
 
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I don't begrudge women's salvation. The more people who are saved the better. Just don't pastor because you are sinning when you do that.

Then the "elect lady" ministering in 2 John was also sinning? John was giving this woman explicit instructions as to whom she was to "receive" into the fellowship of this house church, and warnings of whom not to "receive" into the fellowship. John was also commending the spiritual growth of her "children" for walking in truth. This was more than this woman serving coffee and doughnuts in her home. This "elect lady" had "her children" meeting in the assembly of her house church, just as John had "my little children" in the assembly who followed him in the Lord's doctrine. This "elect lady" also had an "elect sister", who also had "children" of her own assembly as well, passing greetings to the other church assembly.
 
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