Reasoning Together

WordSword

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What sense and worth could there be if one truly received salvation and then truly lost it? Can it be rightly said that God can give “eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him” (Heb 5:9), while knowing they will eventually lose it? Such a situation would have no value at any time, but only confirms a misunderstanding of God’s omniscience. After rebirth, one will never conceive the desire against what He “works” within (Phl 2:13), which is “to desire and to perform of His good pleasure.” If those who profess faith in Christ cease to outwardly manifest the Christian walk, it confirms they have yet to be reborn.

It is this very “work” that keeps one from ever desiring to return to the former state of an unregenerate—which is “irrevocable” (Rom 11:29 - NKJV). If you’re reborn God will “keep you from evil” and “keep you from falling” (2Th 3:3; Jude 1:24), otherwise none could possibly remain in the faith; which answers to why salvation is permanent, and apostates (hypocrites) eventually manifest the absence of rebirth.

No matter who you are, there will always be a certain degree of misinterpretation of Scripture (concerning spiritual growth but not how to receive salvation), as it often presents statements that require researching beyond how a passage is given. This difficulty exists to confound the hypocrite (believers never cease from seeking truth), and admonish the saved to study; and without the use of at least one acceptable Bible commentator of your choice, there will always be a weighty time-lag in your learning progress
 
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BobRyan

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What sense and worth could there be if one truly received salvation and then truly lost it? Can it be rightly said that God can give “eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him” (Heb 5:9), while knowing they will eventually lose it? Such a situation would have no value at any time, but only confirms a misunderstanding of God’s omniscience. After rebirth, one will never conceive the desire against what He “works” within (Phl 2:13), which is “to desire and to perform of His good pleasure.” If those who profess faith in Christ cease to outwardly manifest the Christian walk, it confirms they have yet to be reborn.

Very interesting topic --

============================== here it is in a recent thread.
Dec 28, 2021 #1

There are a number of texts that speak to the warning of loss of forgiveness, being severed from Christ, falling from grace... branches in Christ that are removed.

  1. Matt 18:32-35 - Christ teaches " full forgiveness revoked" at the end of the chapter
  2. Ezek 18:20-28 - Entire chapter teaches "forgiveness revoked" and die in sins
  3. John 15 - "branches in me" that are cut off and burned up
  4. Matt 13:5-6,20-21 - Rocky ground example - teaches salvation revoked.
  5. Rom 11:19-21 - those who "stand only by faith" - are to fear lest they are lost by failing to continue
  6. 1 Cor 9:22-27 - Paul is exercising self discipline --lest after preaching the gospel to others I myself should be disqualified from it
  7. Gal 5:4 - "you have been severed from Christ... you have fallen from grace"
  8. Heb 6 - those who have escaped , who have found salvation - turning back again to being lost. Not able to "renew them again" back to being saved - in this very special case

As one might easily perceive - changing a warning about the saved being in danger of becoming lost (becoming severed from Christ, having full forgiveness revoked) is a far more weighty matter than "Warning the lost against becoming lost-er".
...
So instead of "not looking at these texts and just finding something that might be less of a problem" - in this thread I propose that we look at these texts."​

================================== end quote

So the first thing i notice in your OP is that you do not address any text in that list above. I assume your position is that just looking at the ones you are listing one could easily conclude with a bit of inference that these other texts I have listed "should not exist".

My suggestion is that if you look at both lists of texts you get a balanced view of what the Bible says on that topic.
 
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BobRyan

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What sense and worth could there be if one truly received salvation and then truly lost it? Can it be rightly said that God can give “eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him” (Heb 5:9),

here is where "inference" is the substance of the point.

If someone gives you the winning lottery ticket but then later you lose it - can it rightly be said "they never gave you the winning ticket"?

These are inference exercises.

If the Bible is then found to contain many warnings against losing that ticket "as if it possible to lose" and even "as if someone has just lost it" - does that not remove all doubt about the reality of such a danger?

======================

Here is a thread where "risk" is compared for a given doctrine "and its opposite" in the scenario where each side is found to be wrong/incorrect. Once saved always saved is one of those doctrines in the list

Monday at 3:22 PM #1

It is argued there that if OSAS is wrong and one believes in it anyway... there is risk.

It is also argued that if one does not believe in OSAS and their position is found to be wrong --- there is no risk because in both cases the first step is always to "accept Christ as Savior" - to embrace the gospel.

But note that in that post the first example given for "risk" vs "no Risk" -- is atheism. The point is made that:

If the atheist's belief is wrong ... there is risk
If the Christian's belief is wrong and Atheism is the correct belief.. there is no risk for the Christian.​
 
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fhansen

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After rebirth, one will never conceive the desire against what He “works” within
So this would necessarily mean that one would never want to sin again?
which answers to why salvation is permanent, and apostates (hypocrites) eventually manifest the absence of rebirth.
And yet writers of the NT exhort believers to perservere, in order to see God.
and without the use of at least one acceptable Bible commentator of your choice
Bible commentators can be good but it seems that the interpretations remain our private ones either way if we go only by the bible alone-and determine who's worth listening to on it. But...I guess we all have to do the best we can in uncovering the truths of God's word with the sources we have and value.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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What sense and worth could there be if one truly received salvation and then truly lost it? Can it be rightly said that God can give “eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him” (Heb 5:9), while knowing they will eventually lose it? Such a situation would have no value at any time, but only confirms a misunderstanding of God’s omniscience. After rebirth, one will never conceive the desire against what He “works” within (Phl 2:13), which is “to desire and to perform of His good pleasure.” If those who profess faith in Christ cease to outwardly manifest the Christian walk, it confirms they have yet to be reborn.

It is this very “work” that keeps one from ever desiring to return to the former state of an unregenerate—which is “irrevocable” (Rom 11:29 - NKJV). If you’re reborn God will “keep you from evil” and “keep you from falling” (2Th 3:3; Jude 1:24), otherwise none could possibly remain in the faith; which answers to why salvation is permanent, and apostates (hypocrites) eventually manifest the absence of rebirth.

No matter who you are, there will always be a certain degree of misinterpretation of Scripture (concerning spiritual growth but not how to receive salvation), as it often presents statements that require researching beyond how a passage is given. This difficulty exists to confound the hypocrite (believers never cease from seeking truth), and admonish the saved to study; and without the use of at least one acceptable Bible commentator of your choice, there will always be a weighty time-lag in your learning progress
Judas truly recieved and truly lost salvation. He walked with Jesus Christ of Nazareth as one of the twelve. He witnessed all of His miracles , heard His teachings even performed miracles Himself. Yet Jesus Christ of Nazareth mourned to the Father that He lost one.
It is important to note that.
Blessings.
 
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WordSword

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There are a number of texts that speak to the warning of loss of forgiveness, being severed from Christ, falling from grace... branches in Christ that are removed.
Hi, and it's been a while since I've seen your replies, which I appreciate the thought and reason you put into them, and I understand your reasoning, considering the way Scripture often reads.

Other than ourselves, one cannot be certain of another's heart like can God is, so all who profess faith will manifest whether or not they are genuine by their walk, thus professors truly saved continue the Christian walk, but unsaved professors eventually cease; so I see "falling from grace," "departing from the faith," etc. is reference first to the profession of these holy doctrines, and then to what the doctrine teaches. Therefore those who manifest cessation of professing the Christian life are only leaving what they had, which is only a false profession of the doctrine, and not the belief of the doctrine, or they would have continued (1Jo 2:19).

Matt 18:32-35 - Christ teaches " full forgiveness revoked" at the end of the chapter
Presently I'm not addressing all your examples, because I think those to which I reply will answer them (unless you want me to address them).

Scripture always writes in a way that renders means of identifying error. This chapter expresses the mandate of unlimited forgiveness (a Christian practice - vs 21, 22) via a hyperbolic story, for no true Christian will withhold forgiveness from anyone (Mat 6:15).

John 15 - "branches in me" that are cut off and burned up
As mentioned above, there are two types of professors in Christ, genuine and false. The latter only appear to believe, and both will be manifested of their true position:

John Gill - "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit,.... There are two sorts of branches in Christ the vine; the one sort are such who have only a historical faith (faith based on historical evidence as opposed to personal or religious conviction - NC) in him, believe but for a time, and are removed; they are such who only profess to believe in him, as Simon Magus did; are in him by profession only; they submit to outward ordinances, become church members, and so are reckoned to be in Christ, being in a church state, as the churches of Judea and Thessalonica, and others, are said, in general, to he in Christ; though it is not to be thought that every individual person in these churches were truly and savingly in him. These branches are unfruitful ones; what fruit they seemed to have, withers away, and proves not to be genuine fruit; what fruit they bring forth is to themselves, and not to the glory of God, being none of the fruits of his Spirit and grace."

Albert Barnes - "The vinedresser will remove all branches that are dead or that bear no fruit, so will God take from his church all professed Christians who give no evidence by their lives that they are truly united to the Lord Jesus. He here refers to such cases as that of Judas, the apostatizing disciples, and all false and merely nominal Christians."

Matt 13:5-6,20-21 - Rocky ground example - teaches salvation revoked.
Only the "good ground" produced believers; and Luk 8:13, "for a while believe" intends the sense that they only appeared to believe, as their "falling away" from their false profession manifested.

Gal 5:4 - "you have been severed from Christ... you have fallen from grace"
"Whosoever of you are justified by the law," can be paraphrased "whoever thinks they can be justified by the Law." Verse 5 can be, "it would be as though you had fallen from grace." But this is predicated on a hypothesis "if ye be circumcised" (v 2), as verse 10 displays, and Heb 6:9.


















 
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Clare73

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Judas truly recieved and truly lost salvation. He walked with Jesus Christ of Nazareth as one of the twelve. He witnessed all of His miracles , heard His teachings even performed miracles Himself. Yet Jesus Christ of Nazareth mourned to the Father that He lost one.
It is important to note that.
Blessings.
A couple of things to keep in mind:

1) Performing miracles does not necessarily mean one's faith is genuine and one is, therefore, saved (Matthew 7:21-23; Acts 19:13-16; 1 Corinthians 13:2),

2) Judas had a continuing practice of stealing from the common purse (John 12:6, John 13:29), indicative of not being saved.
He betrayed Jesus for money, indicative of not being saved.
Deception, theft, betrayal are not indicative of being saved.

I suspect Judas thought Jesus was going to restore the kingdom of Israel to its former stature and therefore, he and the apostles would be reigning with him; and when it became evident this was not happening, he may have then come up with Plan B to force Jesus' hand and make him use his divine power for the sake of his kingship, which when it did not transpire, he despaired.
My point being that Judas' behavior all along was not that of a sheep, but that a goat, not that of the wheat, but that of the tares, not that of truth, but that of deception; i.e., he never was saved and, therefore he didn't lose what he never had.
 
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WordSword

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So this would necessarily mean that one would never want to sin again?
I like your comments and the way you presented them, it makes disagreements nonargumentative (2Ti 2:24). Concerning the desire to sin, it's by the Spirit using the new nature (new man) in believers that "God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." Seeing that this is a permanent and ongoing work that doesn't cease, where would there ever be cause for "presumptuous" (Num 15:30) or "willful" (Heb 10:26) sin, once matured in Christ's walk?

Though the sin nature is still at work it can no longer cause believers to desire sin (dominion - Ro 6:14). The difference is the loss of desire for sin, unlike our prior unregenerate state, as seen by Paul's dichotomy of two natures in Romans 7:15, 16, 19.

And yet writers of the NT exhort believers to perservere, in order to see God.
Perseverance (never ceasing our profession) is the primary outward manifestation of Christianity, just as the Spirit is the inward assurance. Only genuine professors continue (1Jn 2:19).

"it seems that the interpretations remain our private ones"
Not sure your meaning here.

I guess we all have to do the best we can in uncovering the truths of God's word with the sources we have and value.
I like most what you said here!
 
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SamInNi

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If those who profess faith in Christ cease to outwardly manifest the Christian walk, it confirms they have yet to be reborn.
When I originally read this point-of-view it made me think of Galatians 6:1 (those caught in a sin who needed restored), and those Paul handed over “to Satan” for the “destruction of the flesh” and so that “they may learn not to blaspheme” (1st Corinthians 5:5; 1st Timothy 1:20).

And what about those who are “so easily” entangled in sin (Hebrews 12:1). Who are those who need to “lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light” and “make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts” (Romans 13:12, 14)? They are “us”. We need to encourage one another not to do these things expressly because it is possible.

As you know, the root of the problem here (and in other Scripture texts) is explained in Galatians:

“For the flesh has desires that are opposed to the Spirit, and the Spirit has desires that are opposed to the flesh, for these are in opposition to each other, so that you cannot do what you want” (Galatians 5:17).

The crunch issue is this: we will see the works of the flesh in true believers’ lives. We see them taken in trespasses, needing their fleshly tendencies destroyed, entangled in sin, making provision for the flesh, etc. When behaving and struggling in this way over a longer period of time, do they “outwardly manifest the Christian walk”? Should we conclude that these are “yet to be reborn”?

There is another vital dimension to this, and those of us who are mature in Christ need to be careful how we expound it. Combating sin and the deeds of the flesh in our lives is not the same as practising those things. There is a crucial distinction here because “those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God” (Galatians 5:21).

There is a danger that we may mislead and dishearten those who are often struggling to overcome sin in their lives. They may begin to doubt if they ever came to Christ at all. Eventually they may wrongly decide that they have never been born again. Some people are in turmoil when they don’t need to be and we need wisdom when dealing with it.

God looks on the heart and He knows those who are His. Let’s be convinced of better things when we draw alongside those who seem to be no longer walking with Christ. If we step into their lives let’s first of all show them love, encouragement, along with caring admonishment and discipline. God will discipline those He loves. We can play a part in their restoration. If it seems they are truly practising sin, they may indeed need to fully understand they are in need of salvation.

Appearances can be deceptive. Sometimes life isn't black and white. Lapsing into disillusionment, worldliness and destructive sins isn’t necessarily falling away into eternal destruction.
 
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SamInNi

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...Judas' behavior all along was not that of a sheep, but that a goat, not that of the wheat, but that of the tares, not that of truth, but that of deception; i.e., he never was saved and, therefore he didn't lose what he never had.
Yes, Judas was "the son of perdition", the "one destined to perish" (NASB note at John 17:12).

Jesus also said: "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" (John 6:70). This explains why Satan entered Judas and put it into his mind to betray Christ.
 
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zoidar

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Judas truly recieved and truly lost salvation. He walked with Jesus Christ of Nazareth as one of the twelve. He witnessed all of His miracles , heard His teachings even performed miracles Himself. Yet Jesus Christ of Nazareth mourned to the Father that He lost one.
It is important to note that.
Blessings.

Where does it say that Jesus mourned Judas?
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Where does it say that Jesus mourned Judas?
Judas was a Jew.
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
 
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zoidar

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Judas was a Jew.
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

That's quite a stretch, but ok.
 
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zoidar

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Not really. Jesus Christ of Nazareth loved His 12 as well as Israel and all His creation.
Blessings

I don't disagree that He did and does (loved Judas too). I meant using your quotation to show that Jesus mourned Judas is a stretch.

When I read Scripture, I don't see any sign Jesus is mourning Judas, rather he is speaking of him in very hard terms.

I think Jesus is crying over Jerusalem, because they don't understand who he is and that he has come for them. Judas on the other hand knew Jesus, knew who he was and why he came, yet betrayed him. That is something else.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I don't disagree that He did and does (loved Judas too). I meant using your quotation to show that Jesus mourned Judas is a stretch.

When I read Scripture, I don't see any sign Jesus is mourning Judas, rather he is speaking of him in very hard terms.

I think Jesus is crying over Jerusalem, because they don't understand who he is and that he has come for them. Judas on the other hand knew Jesus, knew who he was and why he came, yet betrayed him. That is something else.
Jesus Christ of Nazareth is God. He mourns for all humanity. This is God's Character. It is important to know when approaching all scripture.
Blessings.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
There are a number of texts that speak to the warning of loss of forgiveness, being severed from Christ, falling from grace... branches in Christ that are removed.

Hi, and it's been a while since I've seen your replies, which I appreciate the thought and reason you put into them, and I understand your reasoning, considering the way Scripture often reads.

Other than ourselves, one cannot be certain of another's heart like can God is, so all who profess faith will manifest whether or not they are genuine by their walk, thus professors truly saved continue the Christian walk, but unsaved professors eventually cease; so I see "falling from grace," "departing from the faith," etc. is reference first to the profession of these holy doctrines, and then to what the doctrine teaches. Therefore those who manifest cessation of professing the Christian life are only leaving what they had, which is only a false profession of the doctrine, and not the belief of the doctrine, or they would have continued (1Jo 2:19).


Presently I'm not addressing all your examples, because I think those to which I reply will answer them (unless you want me to address them).

Hi I am sorry for being so late in this reply - I had some projects on my plate and did not get back to this thread until today.

Your solution turns "joined to Christ" and "under grace not under law" into "another form of still being lost" - it makes the Gal 5:4 warning a warning about "the lost risking becoming lost-er".

But the text is not writing as if nothing bad happened. In fact the way you word it - something "good" happened because "The lost finally find out they are lost instead of still not knowing about it".

The text reads the opposite way.

4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

you suggest a text that reads this way "as you can see - you were never joined to Christ and you have not fallen from Grace since you were never under grace - and the evidence is your recent decision to b justified by law".

That is a lot of "rework" -- maybe even wrench - to get it turned around like that in my POV.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
Matt 18:32-35 - Christ teaches " full forgiveness revoked" at the end of the chapter

INSIDE the parable:
31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.​

OUTSIDE the parable: (the teaching of Christ)
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”​

Scripture always writes in a way that renders means of identifying error. This chapter expresses the mandate of unlimited forgiveness (a Christian practice - vs 21, 22) via a hyperbolic story, for no true Christian will withhold forgiveness from anyone (Mat 6:15).

Dismissing the teaching of Christ above is not that easy.

First of all you are claiming that He is warning them against an impossible risk. That of a FULLY FORGIVEN person experiencing forgiveness revoked - for not forgiving others JUST as HE IS fully forgiven by God as a born-again saved person.

Your response is close to 'well that could never happen'... But Christ is not in the business of having teaching about things that don't exist, that never happen.

You change it into Christ saying "if were never forgiven then of course you would never forgive others -- which is as it should be"
 
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WordSword

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Your solution turns "joined to Christ" and "under grace not under law" into "another form of still being lost" - it makes the Gal 5:4 warning a warning about "the lost risking becoming lost-er".
Not sure I understand you clear enough here, but first to be realized is that this issue is a hypothetical assumption based on "if ye be circumcised" (5:2), which is a continuation of 5:3, 3, "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect (complete) by the flesh? They were still ignorant of what their rebirth involved. In 5:7 "hinder" is not prevent but "impede" or delay, for Paul was convinced they were saved (5:10) and was reaching to convince them of the same understanding. There is no language confirming them going back (which is not possible), e.g. "should not obey" as opposed to, "do" or "did not obey."
 
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