Womens roles in the church

bekkilyn · Jan 19, 2022

Strong in Him said:
And I know why people dismiss statements like "the Greek doesn't say that/that verse is not in the Greek". They don't want to admit that their cherished position might be wrong, and their interpretation not what was written originally - hence the attack on the language.
I've seen it in another thread on the KJV; the KJV is different from the Greek, there is no possibility that the KJV can be wrong, therefore let's attack those who claim to speak/understand the language and demand to see their credentials.

People who do speak/have studied the language can tell us if we are wrong, or correct, about certain words. The trouble is that some don't like having their theories contradicted.

The silly comments about needing to be a so-called expert in Greek to "prove" that the Greek means what it means only proves that this person isn't arguing in good faith and may even possibly be incapable of critical arguments if not outright trolling/gaslighting, which is very likely. I'm at the point where I'm reading his posts just to see what new levels of over-the-top ridiculousness he reaches because sometimes I'm just easily amused that way.

LoveofTruth · Jan 19, 2022

3 Resurrections said:
It seems that those who speak the loudest and the longest about "authority" are the most prone to be overbearing and exercise a "lordship" mentality in their associations with fellow Christians - of either gender. At least, this has been my past experience. There is ONE head alone over all things to the church, and that is our Great High Priest Christ Jesus. The equal priesthood of all believers under Him (regardless of gender) is an established reality now under the New Covenant. To belabor the point beyond this betrays a wish to artificially establish a so-called "office" of the ministry. Scripture doesn't really use the word "office" regarding the ministry. This word was artificially inserted in the KJV instead of "ministry", but what can one expect from an earthly monarch in love with power?

The authority comes from Christ to all who speak and live in the word.The word is the authority and babes in Christ are sometimes unskillful in the word of righteousness but more mature brothers should be able to use the word in power.
The Pharisees were the so called leaders and authorities and they questioned Jesus by what authority he did the things he does, he questioned them on Johns authority. For john did not get his authority from men or from the religious leaders. Paul himself said he was an apostle, not of men but of God. Also Jesus spoke as one having authority not as the scribes abs Pharisees. Jesus wasn’t recognized by the Pharisees as a political leader or in their group etc so they tried to push the authority they thought they had over him and act like he was not submitting to their authority. But they were wrong . And the authority we see him use is when he spoke the word of God and did miracles in Power and cast out devils and more.

Strong in Him · Jan 20, 2022

LoveofTruth said:
No I don’t do what you charge me of. When any believer speaks the word of God and lives in Christ led by the Spirit they are in the authority of the Lord

Excellent.
So why can't you accept that there are Christian women who speak God's word, live in Christ, are led by his Spirit, read his word - and who are either ordained Ministers, or who are pursuing that Ministry because they believe that is what God has led them to do?

God says that he leads people in paths of righteousness for his name's sake, Psalms 23:3.
God's name is very important and has high honour, Psalms 138:2. I can't believe that people who bear his name - Christians - would want, or be allowed, to get away with saying, "GOD called me to be a Minister and I am doing so in his name", if that was a lie. God's name would, in that case, be dishonoured. Not only that, but the women who claimed it would be speaking and living a lie and not walking in his light and truth, 1 John 1:6-7.

Yet you simply dismiss, and write off, all such Christian women as "deceived sinners".

Archivist · Jan 20, 2022

LoveofTruth said:
The authority comes from Christ to all who speak and live in the word.The word is the authority and babes in Christ are sometimes unskillful in the word of righteousness but more mature brothers should be able to use the word in power.
The Pharisees were the so called leaders and authorities and they questioned Jesus by what authority he did the things he does, he questioned them on Johns authority. For john did not get his authority from men or from the religious leaders. Paul himself said he was an apostle, not of men but of God. Also Jesus spoke as one having authority not as the scribes abs Pharisees. Jesus wasn’t recognized by the Pharisees as a political leader or in their group etc so they tried to push the authority they thought they had over him and act like he was not submitting to their authority. But they were wrong . And the authority we see him use is when he spoke the word of God and did miracles in Power and cast out devils and more.

You wrote “the authority comes from Christ to ALL who speak and live in the word.” It would seem to me that ALL would include both men and women, particularly given the number of women who took leadership roles in scripture.

LoveofTruth · Jan 20, 2022

Strong in Him said:
Excellent.
So why can't you accept that there are Christian women who speak God's word, live in Christ, are led by his Spirit, read his word - and who are either ordained Ministers, or who are pursuing that Ministry because they believe that is what God has led them to do?

God says that he leads people in paths of righteousness for his name's sake, Psalms 23:3.
God's name is very important and has high honour, Psalms 138:2. I can't believe that people who bear his name - Christians - would want, or be allowed, to get away with saying, "GOD called me to be a Minister and I am doing so in his name", if that was a lie. God's name would, in that case, be dishonoured. Not only that, but the women who claimed it would be speaking and living a lie and not walking in his light and truth, 1 John 1:6-7.

Yet you simply dismiss, and write off, all such Christian women as "deceived sinners".

Because the word of God says they can’t and they can minister within the parameters of the word of God and His order.

As I have said many times, women can have a prophecy, revelation, certain gifts, testimony rteach younger women, evangelize worship and more as they are in the Spirit and led.

there are certain things that they can “t do within the natural and things related to men and to their husbands etc.

LoveofTruth · Jan 20, 2022

Archivist said:
You wrote “the authority comes from Christ to ALL who speak and live in the word.” It would seem to me that ALL would include both men and women, particularly given the number of women who took leadership roles in scripture.

Because the word of God says they can’t and they can minister within the parameters of the word of God and His order.

As I have said many times, women can have a prophecy, revelation, certain gifts, testimony rteach younger women, evangelize worship and more as they are in the Spirit and led.

there are certain things that they can “t do within the natural and things related to men and to their husbands etc.

That is why a woman can speak a revelation in Christ for all but in the physical realm they are to live within the present order that God has laid out.

for example women are to submit to their husbands in everything abs they bear children which men don’t etc. Women are a type of the church and men the type of Christ as they should be in Christ.

Strong in Him · Jan 20, 2022

LoveofTruth said:
Because the word of God days they can’t .

No, it doesn't - otherwise God would not call them to do so. He does not contradict his word.
The problem is that you are saying "As God doesn't contradict his word, and my interpretation of the word is that women are not allowed to be ministers; that interpretation is correct. So all women who ARE ordained, have been ordained, and will be ordained are lying/deceived - ALL of them, now, throughout the years and any to come in the future; all are wrong. What's more, any men who agree, train and ordain them are wrong too."

The testimony of hundreds of women, the evidence of what God IS doing now, or your "it is wrong because I say that this verse shows that it's wrong"?

LoveofTruth said:
As I have said many times, women can have a prophecy, revelation, certain gifts, testimony rteach younger women, evangelize worship and more as they are in the Spirit and led.

there are certain things that they can “t do within the natural and things related to men and to their husbands etc.

In your opinion.
Being called to be Minister of a church is not at all the same as being married.
A Minister may retire, resign or be asked to leave. They may be with a church for a while and then move on to chaplaincy in a hospital, hospice, prison or in the army.
A Minister guides their congregation and may, or may not, provide counsel and guidance. They have no control over a church member's private life, income, career etc etc.
If a church member doesn't like/get on/agree with their Minister they can change churches.

A wife would discuss change of job/church/home and other things with her husband and consider his views/needs, if not put them first.
A wife can't retire or resign without going through a legal procedure to end the marriage.
A wife makes vows to her husband - not to her minister.

LoveofTruth · Jan 20, 2022

Strong in Him said:
No, it doesn't - otherwise God would not call them to do so. He does not contradict his word.
The problem is that you are saying "As God doesn't contradict his word, and my interpretation of the word is that women are not allowed to be ministers; that interpretation is correct. So all women who ARE ordained, have been ordained, and will be ordained are lying/deceived - ALL of them, now, throughout the years and any to come in the future; all are wrong. What's more, any men who agree, train and ordain them are wrong too."

The testimony of hundreds of women, the evidence of what God IS doing now, or your "it is wrong because I say that this verse shows that it's wrong"?

In your opinion.
Being called to be Minister of a church is not at all the same as being married.
A Minister may retire, resign or be asked to leave. They may be with a church for a while and then move on to chaplaincy in a hospital, hospice, prison or in the army.
A Minister guides their congregation and may, or may not, provide counsel and guidance. They have no control over a church member's private life, income, career etc etc.
If a church member doesn't like/get on/agree with their Minister they can change churches.

A wife would discuss change of job/church/home and other things with her husband and consider his views/needs, if not put them first.
A wife can't retire or resign without going through a legal procedure to end the marriage.
A wife makes vows to her husband - not to her minister.

As I said all Christian women can be called to walk and use gifts God gives within the parameters of His order. But as we read “I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man” and many other verses.

“ 1 Corinthians 14: 34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. ..37. If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.”

I discuss what this silence is in many post here and how they can still speak in a certain way in Christ.
And I am not giving my opinion but scripture to back everything.

LoveofTruth · Jan 20, 2022

Strong in Him said:
No, it doesn't - otherwise God would not call them to do so. He does not contradict his word.
The problem is that you are saying "As God doesn't contradict his word, and my interpretation of the word is that women are not allowed to be ministers; that interpretation is correct. So all women who ARE ordained, have been ordained, and will be ordained are lying/deceived - ALL of them, now, throughout the years and any to come in the future; all are wrong. What's more, any men who agree, train and ordain them are wrong too."

The testimony of hundreds of women, the evidence of what God IS doing now, or your "it is wrong because I say that this verse shows that it's wrong"?

In your opinion.
Being called to be Minister of a church is not at all the same as being married.
A Minister may retire, resign or be asked to leave. They may be with a church for a while and then move on to chaplaincy in a hospital, hospice, prison or in the army.
A Minister guides their congregation and may, or may not, provide counsel and guidance. They have no control over a church member's private life, income, career etc etc.
If a church member doesn't like/get on/agree with their Minister they can change churches.

A wife would discuss change of job/church/home and other things with her husband and consider his views/needs, if not put them first.
A wife can't retire or resign without going through a legal procedure to end the marriage.
A wife makes vows to her husband - not to her minister.

You are assuming a woman has a call to be in oversight in the church, which scripture says they can’t.

so we can not simply go by a persons feeling and saying they are called to do so.
For example what if a person or in this case a woman, is in a false doctrine or does not meet the requirements of 1 Timothy 3 (which is only for men) or they were a homosexual and said “well, I don’t care what you say from scripture against my call I have a call of God to be an overseer/pastor” etc? Would you still say they have a call or that they were creating a call to do what they want contrary to scripture?

Archivist · Jan 20, 2022

LoveofTruth said:
You are assuming a woman has a call to be in oversight in the church, which scripture says they can’t.

so we can not simply go by a persons feeling and saying they are called to do so.
For example what if a person or in this case a woman, is in a false doctrine or does not meet the requirements of 1 Timothy 3 (which is only for men) or they were a homosexual and said “well, I don’t care what you say from scripture against my call I have a call of God to be an overseer/pastor” etc? Would you still say they have a call or that they were creating a call to do what they want contrary to scripture?

1 Timothy 3 tells us that a deacon must be the husband of one wife, yet Paul tells us that Phoebe was a deacon. You conveniently ignore that, just as you ignore anything in scripture that disagrees with your stance. Once again, if you disagree with a woman being a pastor then don’t join a church that ordains women.

Archivist · Jan 20, 2022

Does anyone else notice that we are hearing the same thing over and over? We are told that Junia was not an apostle, yet scripture tells us the she was “outstanding among the apostles.” Mary, the first person to preach the good news of the risen Christ, is dismissed as not preaching. It is denied that Phoebe was a deacon. No, women who are ordained are neither lying nor deceived as was claimed in Post 947.

Archivist · Jan 20, 2022

Double Post

trophy33 · Jan 20, 2022

Archivist said:
And you are entitled to your interpretation. Why do you keep making such a big deal about Luther? He was a man of his time.

You are a lutheran, so I supposed, maybe incorrectly, that you care about the teachings of Luther.

So far you just dismiss what he said without argumentation, just because you live after him.

trophy33 · Jan 20, 2022

Archivist said:
We are told that Junia was not an apostle, yet scripture tells us the she was “outstanding among the apostles.

I must again correct your information. I did not read the whole thread etc, just reacting to the post of yours.

The verse is:
ἀσπάσασθε Ἀνδρόνικον καὶ Ἰουνίαν τοὺς συγγενεῖς μου καὶ συναιχμαλώτους μου, οἵτινές εἰσιν ἐπίσημοι ἐν τοῖς ἀποστόλοις, οἳ καὶ πρὸ ἐμοῦ γέγοναν ἐν Χριστῷ.

Literally: "who are of note in the apostles"

It can mean:
a) they are known to the apostles
b) they are the known apostles

So again, it cannot be used as any proof. Its ambiguous.

Archivist · Jan 20, 2022

myst33 said:
You are a lutheran, so I supposed, maybe incorrectly, that you care about the teachings of Luther.

So far you just dismiss what he said without argumentation, just because you live in a different culture.

And as I said many posts ago, Luther was a man of his time. I don’t know why you can’t seem to understand that.

Archivist · Jan 20, 2022

myst33 said:
I must again correct your information. I did not read the thread etc, just reacting to the post of yours.

The verse is:
ἀσπάσασθε Ἀνδρόνικον καὶ Ἰουνίαν τοὺς συγγενεῖς μου καὶ συναιχμαλώτους μου, οἵτινές εἰσιν ἐπίσημοι ἐν τοῖς ἀποστόλοις, οἳ καὶ πρὸ ἐμοῦ γέγοναν ἐν Χριστῷ.

Literally: "who are of note in the apostles"

It can mean:
a) they are known to the apostles
b) they are the known apostles

So again, it cannot be used as any proof. Its ambiguous.

Of course it can be used as proof. Something you did not note is that the majority of English translations translate the Greek as “among the apostles,” meaning that she was an apostle. You might want to read the following: Junia, a Female Apostle: An Examination of the Historical Record

bekkilyn · Jan 20, 2022

myst33 said:
I must again correct your information. I did not read the whole thread etc, just reacting to the post of yours.

The verse is:
ἀσπάσασθε Ἀνδρόνικον καὶ Ἰουνίαν τοὺς συγγενεῖς μου καὶ συναιχμαλώτους μου, οἵτινές εἰσιν ἐπίσημοι ἐν τοῖς ἀποστόλοις, οἳ καὶ πρὸ ἐμοῦ γέγοναν ἐν Χριστῷ.

Literally: "who are of note in the apostles"

It can mean:
a) they are known to the apostles
b) they are the known apostles

So again, it cannot be used as any proof. Its ambiguous.

Sorry, according to the other guy, no Greek allowed. Many of the early church fathers disagree with your view on Junia's status however.

Vesper_Jaye✝️ · Jan 20, 2022

This is something I’ve been confused about for a while, I can’t deny what the Bible says about it, but it seems like God is favoring men over women.
And what about the judge Deborah? Was she not “ruling” over men in a way?

pescador · Jan 20, 2022

Can anyone give me a reasonable answer to the question: what quality do women have that might prevent them from serving in any capacity in the church? Since the work of the church is not dependent on physical strength (99.99% of the time) I am ruling out this qualification.

bekkilyn · Jan 20, 2022

Vesper_Jaye✝️ said:
This is something I’ve been confused about for a while, I can’t deny what the Bible says about it, but it seems like God is favoring men over women.
And what about the judge Deborah? Was she not “ruling” over men in a way?

You might find some of the articles on this blog helpful. They really go into detail on a lot of these types of questions.

Blog - Marg Mowczko

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