David Bentley Hart on Hell

Saint Steven

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Gods justice scales are in perfect balance-true justice, uncorruptable

So one side of his scales-70-100 years of unrepented sinful life-- On the other side-Trillions x trillions x trillions, etc of never ending years of suffering.

See any balance, justice, love or Mercy? No is the answer-- a sadist would create such a place
Well said.
There is no TRUE justice in the standard hell dogma.
And many tend to forget that MERCY is always an option in judgment. And that doesn't nullify condemnation, but rather resolves it.
 
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Saint Steven

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Even though while under persecution the early Christians still believed in the final judgment of heaven and hell. The Lord preached this in John 5:22-30 but did not preach a predestination to hell but only the basis of having done good or evil in life. Romans 2 clearly explains what the Lord says in John 5:22-30. Many of us will fail though and without salvation by grace through faith we are in serious danger. Listen to the Lord and listen to the preacher to fear the Lord and keep His commandments ( Ecclesiastes 12:13-14).
Of which "early Christians" do you write? Not those in the East.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor:

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."
 
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keiw

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Well said.
There is no TRUE justice in the standard hell dogma.
And many tend to forget that MERCY is always an option in judgment. And that does nullify condemnation, but rather resolves it.


Yes if God went any way on his scales it would be from love and mercy. Jesus was clear--Those who walk the broad and spacious path will be destroyed.
 
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Lukaris

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Early Christians like St. Ignatius of Antioch ( about 100 AD) speaking specifically of the spread of false doctrine within the church ( not those who may not know or understand). On his way to martyrdom, he wrote to the church at Smyrna:

CHURCH FATHERS: Epistle to the Smyrnaeans (St. Ignatius)

St. Irenaeus of Lyons ( about 175 AD):


CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.27 (St. Irenaeus)

St. Aristides who became Christian but was initially an observer of the Christians for Emperor Hadrian ( 125 AD) from chapter 15 (XV) in his letter:


And if any righteous man among them passes from the world, they rejoice and offer thanks to God; and they escort his body as if he were setting out from one place to another near. And when a child has been born to one of them, they give thanks to God; and if moreover it happen to die in childhood, they give thanks to God the more, as for one who has passed through the world without sins. And further if they see that any one of them dies in his ungodliness or in his sins, for him they grieve bitterly, and sorrow as for one who goes to meet his doom.

The Apology of Aristides the Philosopher

Any information on the counsels endorsing universalism must be faulty.So there is the Bible and early post apostolic testimony.
 
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Saint Steven

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Any information on the counsels endorsing universalism must be faulty.So there is the Bible and early post apostolic testimony.
That is a very biased claim. As if there isn't an argument for the other side of the issue.
 
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Der Alte

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Ignatius of Antioch
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).
Second Clement
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’" (ibid., 17:7).
Justin Martyr
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).
"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).
Mathetes
"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).
Athenagoras
"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
Theophilus of Antioch
"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])
Irenaeus
"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).
Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).
Hippolytus
"Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).
Minucius Felix
"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).
Cyprian of Carthage
An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies
. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).
Lactantius
"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).
 
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Jeff Saunders

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QUOTE="Der Alte
Was the punishment of the entire world by a flood proportionate to any sin that some committed. Was the punishment of Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain by fire proportionate any sins that only some committed?

There is another way of looking at this. Not punishment, but an end to wickedness for their own good. Adam and Eve were not punished by being banned from the Garden. They were cast out as a protection so that they did not eat of the Tree of Life and live forever in a broken state of sin. this would be the same thing.
…..
Too many people on this forum don’t get the idea that what we see now is not the end all of things. They don’t get the big picture of what God is doing. Because the lake of fire is a refinery by ending the mortal lives of these people they will have less sin stacked up and therefore spend less time in the refinery had they lived longer, so by cutting their lives short He did them a favor. If all you understand is the here and now and you don’t get the big picture then you come away with a distorted view of what God is doing.that’s why people who follow UR have a much better view of God and what He has done and is going to do. In the end God 100% satan 0%
 
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Jeff Saunders

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There is an old adage "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
After even the briefest exposure to fire virtually everyone will say they repent but is it genuine?
Here is this world the recidivism rate for prisons is 83+% will the rate sincerely be any different in eternity?
Here is another thing to think about , no one who sees Gods love ,without sin distorting their thinking, can resist for long God wins by love not threatening people. Yes they will pay for their actions but Gods love will win in the end . Any one who has seen and tasted that the Lord is good knows this . If you don’t understand maybe you have not seen and tasted Gods love, to many Christianity is just a get out of hell free card it’s not a love relationship with Jesus who gave his life and wins us over with love.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Do not try and limit God, if God wanted his mother sinless God could do it without her having sinless parents. I assure you God is all powerful and could do such a thing.
If Mary were sinless then why did scripture say for all have fallen short of the glory of God?
 
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Clare73

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Too many people on this forum don’t get the idea that what we see now is not the end all of things. They don’t get the big picture of what God is doing. Because the lake of fire is a refinery by ending the mortal lives of these people they will have less sin stacked up and therefore spend less time in the refinery had they lived longer, so by cutting their lives short He did them a favor. If all you understand is the here and now and you don’t get the big picture then you come away with a distorted view of what God is doing.that’s why people who follow UR have a much better view of God and what He has done and is going to do. In the end
God 100% satan 0%
Rah! Rah! Rah!
Sis-boom-bah!
Yea, Team God!

< just couldn't resist >
 
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Der Alte

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Too many people on this forum don’t get the idea that what we see now is not the end all of things. They don’t get the big picture of what God is doing. Because the lake of fire is a refinery by ending the mortal lives of these people they will have less sin stacked up and therefore spend less time in the refinery had they lived longer, so by cutting their lives short He did them a favor. If all you understand is the here and now and you don’t get the big picture then you come away with a distorted view of what God is doing.that’s why people who follow UR have a much better view of God and what He has done and is going to do. In the end God 100% satan 0%
Meaningless, empty rhetoric without; one verse of scripture, a quote from a Hebrew/Greek lexicon or grammar, or a quote from an early church father to support any of it.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Meaningless, empty rhetoric without; one verse of scripture, a quote from a Hebrew/Greek lexicon or grammar, or a quote from an early church father to support any of it.
If you don’t understand scripture what is point in quoting it ?
 
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Der Alte

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If you don’t understand scripture what is point in quoting it ?
I started learning to speak Greek, in Germany, 60+ years ago not knowing I would formally study both Hebrew and Greek about 2 decades after that. I also read two other languages beside English.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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I h
Meaningless, empty rhetoric without; one verse of scripture, a quote from a Hebrew/Greek lexicon or grammar, or a quote from an early church father to support any of it.
One question how did Enoch know God so well that God took him to Himself with our death.He had no Bible, or any lexicon to read . I don’t understand why you think that unless someone quotes scripture by your definition or quotes lexicons by someone else’s understanding they can’t know God. This makes no sense to me at all.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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I started learning to speak Greek, in Germany, 60+ years ago not knowing I would formally study both Hebrew and Greek about 2 decades after that. I also read two other languages beside English.
So what’s your point?
 
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Der Alte

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Are you sure it wasn't German you were learning?
I learned to speak German when I was 12 with the help of one teacher. 5 years later I was stationed in Germany. I was a cook and had to supervise civilians who worked in the mess hall. Tried speaking German, one said "You speak good German. We no German, we Greek." So I said "Ok teach me some Greek." The first word I learned one of the Greeks pointed at a table and said "trapezi" pronounced "trah-pay-zee." I think that is where we get the word "trapezoid." A couple of decades later when I was studying Greek. My class mates were amazed that the second day I read from the NT almost flawlessly. I didn't understand everything I read but had no problem with pronunciation.
 
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He learned both in Germany.
I learned German with the help of a teacher in California when I was 12. 5 years later when I went to Germany others in my unit thought I was a CID or MP spy. I was 17, not German but spoke German. CID is Criminal Investigation Division they were plain clothes detectives. I learned more being in Germany.
 
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