Why isn’t the Bible more clear?

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Simply "WELS" LOL.

We still have some LCMS Congregations up here; they are all "English District"; and have always done their own thing... more or less. We have one about 12 miles from me; their Pastor is LCC, and he attends the Circuit meetings with the rest of our LCC pastors in our Circuit.

“English District”? How would you differentiate their culture from yours? Do they speak that strange Received Pronunciation (English upper class/old school BBC) sounding accent some Canadians have instead of the stereotypical Canadian? I think the RP accent is called Canadian Dainty.

(Because I always ask the most topical questions eh)

Nominal on topic point: WELS, while traditional and conservative, I don’t have enough positive evidence to group with LCMS/LCC in the cluster of highly reliable churches. I am more interested in the Evangelical Lutheran Synod, NALC, and ELDONA presently, although @Shane R I think recently linked me to a video HG the Bishop of Eldona and his presbyters did on justification which left me...confused, I mean, I have no idea what point they were trying to make as it was such pure Western theology, I can’t remember how to do it.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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“English District”? How would you differentiate their culture from yours? Do they speak that strange Received Pronunciation (English upper class/old school BBC) sounding accent some Canadians have instead of the stereotypical Canadian? I think the RP accent is called Canadian Dainty.

The English District was made up of English speaking churches that joined the LCMS in the late 19th century. Rather than a regular district (okay, diocese) of a couple of states these were English speaking rather than German.

History | The English District - LCMS
 
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Hazelelponi

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Why is the Bible written so that it has to be interpreted? And why are there so many different denominations that believe different things and interpret the Bible different ways? Even Bible scholars have different views on what the Bible says.
Only one denomination (or maybe no denomination) will have interpreted the Bible correctly, right?
Why didn’t God make the Bible more clear so that Christians wouldn’t be divided over it and they could all know exactly what the Bible says?

Before I was saved I had an impossible time understanding Scripture, but after I was saved it all suddenly made perfect sense, and day by day I had a greater and greater understanding as my knowledge grew.

Some of the way God closes the Book to the unsaved is so that we can more easily spot the wolves in sheep's clothing.

Another reason is God's own reason: it is fulfillment of prophecy in Isaiah that those who continually rejected His message would be left in spiritual blindness. (Matthew 13:10-17, 2 Timothy 3:7) Spiritual discernment is a gift from God.

A quote from Got Questions website is:

the parable is a blessing to those with willing ears. But to those with dull hearts and ears that are slow to hear, the parable is also an instrument of both judgment and mercy.
Why did Jesus teach in parables? | GotQuestions.org

Going back to a portion of my first paragraph, we grow in understanding as we grow in Christ, thus, we grow in knowledge and the Book opens wider (both experience and reading are learning tools) so a person walking with Christ 40 years will have a much greater and more solid grasp than one whose only now beginning to grow.

Secondly, how much time one devotes to study is another factor. The one deep in daily study will understand Scripture far better than someone who reads silly little devotionals that teach nothing but a handful of feel good passages.

Third, we always understand things in light of our own personal history and experiences. That may make one person cling more tightly to certain passages, and seek less how it might work in unison with other verses.

So, in short, there are so many factors at play, that it's little wonder we are in different places at different times, with different understandings.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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The English District was made up of English speaking churches that joined the LCMS in the late 19th century. Rather than a regular district (okay, diocese) of a couple of states these were English speaking rather than German.

History | The English District - LCMS
And, unlike the other Districts, this one had no geographical boundaries.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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And, unlike the other Districts, this one had no geographical boundaries.

Somewhere I got side tracked and completely lost my train of thought there. Thanks!
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Somewhere I got side tracked and completely lost my train of thought there. Thanks!
Not to worry! BTW, the ED had the reputation among more conservative clergy here in Canada as the LCMS's dumping ground for liberal clergy; such is no longer the case.
 
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fhansen

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I agree, except that I wouldn't take the view that its information is obscure or absolutely in need of deciphering. Not when Scripture itself says that what is there is sufficient for all of us.
The information there is sufficient, but that doesn't mean it will all be sufficiently understood; our interprations may be insufficient. This is why the Bereans and the Ethiopian Eunuch, while studying the OT writings that were specifically stated to be sufficient, still needed the input of Christ's disciples in order to understand them.

Having said that, some teachings will be easier to understand and some less so. Either way we all have to determine to our own satisfaction, 1) what source(s) of revelaion is/are important, 2) what contitutes correct interpretation, and 3) where we draw the line as to which tenets are essential and which are not.
 
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The information there is sufficient, but that doesn't mean it will all be sufficiently understood; our interprations may be insufficient.
That's true, but it's also true of every other source of authority or supposed authority that has been held up by someone or other as being free of that problem. They all have the same problem!

Tradition, Papal decrees, what the Magisterium allegedly thinks, individual inspiration...all of it. None of them are above being misinterpreted as well.
 
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fhansen

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That's true, but it's also true of every other source of authority or supposed authority that has been held up by someone or other as being free of that problem. They all have the same problem!

Tradition, Papal decrees, what the Magisterium allegedly thinks, individual inspiration...all of it. None of them are above being misinterpreted as well.
And I'll submit again that the variation between core doctrines, liturgy, sacraments, practices, etc among the old churches are far less extreme than that resulting from the doctrine of Sola Sriptura-a doctrine which is virtually guaranteed to create division IMO. And Catholicism, for its part, is quite well spelled out by any official Catholic teachings, particularly the catechism, just as Lutheranism is well enough defined by Lutheran confessions and catechisms. Anyone can disagree with any of those teachings but they stand on their own as a whole.
 
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According to Church History, Power.
According to Secular History, Money.
Self fulfilling; if you approach scripture with that frame of mind, you are beat before you start. Use Scripture to interpret Scripture, and keep it in context.
 
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pescador

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And I'll submit again that the variation between core doctrines, liturgy, sacraments, practices, etc among the old churches are far less extreme than that resulting from the doctrine of Sola Sriptura-a doctrine which is virtually guaranteed to create division IMO. And Catholicism, for its part, is quite well spelled out by any official Catholic teachings, particularly the catechism, just as Lutheranism is well enough defined by Lutheran confessions and catechisms. Anyone can disagree with any of those teachings but they stand on their own as a whole.

I believe that the Bible is the inerrant message of God to humanity. I don't regard the teachings of men, regardless of their position, as being truer than the God's Word.

If Sola Sriptura is a doctrine which is virtually guaranteed to create division then that is the fault of those fallible people who teach different doctrines than what the Bible says. Much of this applies to Catholicism.

Sola scriptura!!
 
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fhansen

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I believe that the Bible is the inerrant message of God to humanity. I don't regard the teachings of men, regardless of their position, as being truer than the God's Word.
I agree that the bible is inerrant. As far as the teachings, positions, opinions, interpretations, etc, of men, we all have some regard for the positions of others; I doubt very much that your theology would be the same as it is now if it were to come strictly from you and the bible alone, without any input or influence from those who've preceded us. Anyway, whether or not we consider and agree with the opinions of others: pastors, theologians, churches, every time a person reads and interprets the bible the opinions and positions of a man are being regarded-even when that position is only our own. None of us as individuals have a monopoly on understanding God’s will, and oftentimes quite plausible interpretations are offered that are opposed to other, quite plausible interpretations. And while many things in the bible are clear enough, it’s also often ambiguous, vague, and even seemingly contradictory at times.

Needless to say, I don’t agree with the concept and doctrine known as the “perspicuity of Scripture”. Anyway, here are some teachings of the Catholic church that I agree with:

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."

107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."
If Sola Sriptura is a doctrine which is virtually guaranteed to create division then that is the fault of those fallible people who teach different doctrines than what the Bible says. Much of this applies to Catholicism.
Luther worried that the doctrine could cause division and that began to occur right away, within his own lifetime. The RCC, as with the EO, aren’t picking up a book centuries after its been written and then starting from there to understand what the Christian faith is about. The church received and taught the gospel before the New Testament was written. Once authority is totally removed from the church, for all practical purposes, and seen as residing in a Book, regardless of how inspired, then defining the faith actually becomes a sort of potential free-for-all with each reader privately doing the defining. And this is probably even more evident today than ever.
 
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I agree that the bible is inerrant. As far as the teachings, positions, opinions, interpretations, etc, of men, we all have some regard for the positions of others; I doubt very much that your theology would be the same as it is now if it were to come strictly from you and the bible alone, without any input or influence from those who've preceded us. Anyway, whether or not we consider and agree with the opinions of others: pastors, theologians, churches, every time a person reads and interprets the bible the opinions and positions of a man are being regarded-even when that position is only our own. None of us as individuals have a monopoly on understanding God’s will, and oftentimes quite plausible interpretations are offered that are opposed to other, quite plausible interpretations. And while many things in the bible are clear enough, it’s also often ambiguous, vague, and even seemingly contradictory at times.

Needless to say, I don’t agree with the concept and doctrine known as the “perspicuity of Scripture”. Anyway, here are some teachings of the Catholic church that I agree with:

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."

107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."

Luther worried that the doctrine could cause division and that began to occur right away, within his own lifetime. The RCC, as with the EO, aren’t picking up a book centuries after its been written and then starting from there to understand what the Christian faith is about. The church received and taught the gospel before the New Testament was written. Once authority is totally removed from the church, for all practical purposes, and seen as residing in a Book, regardless of how inspired, then defining the faith actually becomes a sort of potential free-for-all with each reader privately doing the defining. And this is probably even more evident today than ever.

Catholicism is all about rules. There is a church official somewhere who makes up the rules, which may or may not line up with Scripture. For example, there is no Pope in the Bible, no Bishops, no Cardinals. Much of the ritual is based on a variation of the Old Covenant, such as confessing one's sins to a priest for forgiveness and having to perform some ritual as penance. And I won't mention the crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the sale of indulgences, burning heretics at the stake, etc., all of which are part of Catholic history.

Martin Luther was right! Sola scriptura.

The only reliable, consistent Christian truth is in the Bible -- God's written Word -- not in the minds of men who make it up as they go along.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Catholicism is all about rules. There is a church official somewhere who makes up the rules, which may or may not line up with Scripture. For example, there is no Pope in the Bible, no Bishops, no Cardinals. Much of the ritual is based on a variation of the Old Covenant, such as confessing one's sins to a priest for forgiveness and having to perform some ritual as penance. And I won't mention the crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the sale of indulgences, burning heretics at the stake, etc., all of which are part of Catholic history.

Martin Luther was right! Sola scriptura.

The only reliable, consistent Christian truth is in the Bible -- God's written Word -- not in the minds of men who make it up as they go along.
Actually, most reformed Protestant and Evangelicals have way more man made rules and are far mor legalistic than the CC/Lutherans/Anglicans/Orthodox.
 
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pescador

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Actually, most reformed Protestant and Evangelicals have way more man made rules and are far mor legalistic than the CC/Lutherans/Anglicans/Orthodox.

I don't know how you can say this. I have attended church in a variety of denominations over the years (except Orthodox) and have found just the opposite to be true.
 
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fhansen

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Catholicism is all about rules. There is a church official somewhere who makes up the rules, which may or may not line up with Scripture. For example, there is no Pope in the Bible, no Bishops, no Cardinals. Much of the ritual is based on a variation of the Old Covenant, such as confessing one's sins to a priest for forgiveness and having to perform some ritual as penance. And I won't mention the crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the sale of indulgences, burning heretics at the stake, etc., all of which are part of Catholic history.

Martin Luther was right! Sola scriptura.

The only reliable, consistent Christian truth is in the Bible -- God's written Word -- not in the minds of men who make it up as they go along.
Sola Scriptura is about a rule-it’s called the “rule of faith” And it doesn’t work because everyone applies the rule according to their own individual interpretation. For myself, I can no longer take that rule seriously, as I once did. Rules about church governance and administration, necessary for any entity in this world, have nothing to do with the core dogmas/doctrines of the faith. Bishops: church overseers, a role the apostles necessarily played, certainly have their roots in the beginning, and cardinals and popes are just higher level bishops, with the pope having a particular role to play as a central voice of authority within the church- for overall oversight. Nothing particularly wrong with that. But even if I rejected any “Sola Ecclesia” brand of authority, I’d still have to reject Sola Scriptura as well.

The Catholic and Protestant inquisitions had their basis in the belief that heresy and unbelief were an absolute blight on society. This is harder to appreciate in a modern, more secularized world but we are beginning to see the fruits of atheism play out increasingly in our midst now. Wrong-headed as it was, execution at the hands of civil authorities could be the penalty for adamant and continuous public heresy which was feared to lead the rest of society into darkness. And burning at the stake was the method of the day.

The crusades were fostered by the conviction that seeing the Holy Land in the hands of the “heathen” constituted an absolute atrocity-and outside the will of God. It took some painful lessons to find out that perhaps God didn’t really care who controlled that part of the world at that point in history. Meanwhile, anything the church members do that is inconsistent with church teachings, with God’s will, is objectively wrong. But God never guaranteed impeccability to any member of the church, from the top down, but only that hell would not prevail against it; it would continue to survive through thick and thin in a messed up world, carrying its core message, the light of the gospel, down through the centuries-despite the bumblings, foolishness, weaknesses, greed, and sin of those members-and of their own failure to practice what they preach, to truly understand and live according to the light of the gospel rather than mixing in their own agendas and personal opinions.

The sale of indulgences was an abuse of the simple act of almsgiving, exploited and promoted by foolishness and greed and false zeal. None of these abuses resulted from church teachings on faith and morals which flow from the church’s understanding and interpretations of Scripture and Tradition. They’re examples of not heeding the gospel IOW-failing to love to put it another way. People behaving badly, in the church or outside of it, will continue to occur unless and until we’re all perfected in love, not bound to fully occur in this lifetime, on this planet. To expect perfection in any human-related entity means we probably haven’t looked too deeply at our own failings IMO.

Also, Catholic teachings reject legalism, as we all should of course. Humans are drawn to legalism anyway, and may or may not practice their faith accordingly to one degree or another until we're fully sanctified/perfected.
 
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Sola Scriptura is about a rule-it’s called the “rule of faith” And it doesn’t work because everyone applies the rule according to their own individual interpretation. For myself, I can no longer take that rule seriously, as I once did. Rules about church governance and administration, necessary for any entity in this world, have nothing to do with the core dogmas/doctrines of the faith. Bishops: church overseers, a role the apostles necessarily played, certainly have their roots in the beginning, and cardinals and popes are just higher level bishops, with the pope having a particular role to play as a central voice of authority within the church- for overall oversight. Nothing particularly wrong with that. But even if I rejected any “Sola Ecclesia” brand of authority, I’d still have to reject Sola Scriptura as well.

The Catholic and Protestant inquisitions had their basis in the belief that heresy and unbelief were an absolute blight on society. This is harder to appreciate in a modern, more secularized world but we are beginning to see the fruits of atheism play out increasingly in our midst now. Wrong-headed as it was, execution at the hands of civil authorities could be the penalty for adamant and continuous public heresy which was feared to lead the rest of society into darkness. And burning at the stake was the method of the day.

The crusades were fostered by the conviction that seeing the Holy Land in the hands of the “heathen” constituted an absolute atrocity-and outside the will of God. It took some painful lessons to find out that perhaps God didn’t really care who controlled that part of the world at that point in history. Meanwhile, anything the church members do that is inconsistent with church teachings, with God’s will, is objectively wrong. But God never guaranteed impeccability to any member of the church, from the top down, but only that hell would not prevail against it; it would continue to survive through thick and thin in a messed up world, carrying its core message, the light of the gospel, down through the centuries-despite the bumblings, foolishness, weaknesses, greed, and sin of those members-and of their own failure to practice what they preach, to truly understand and live according to the light of the gospel rather than mixing in their own agendas and personal opinions.

The sale of indulgences was an abuse of the simple act of almsgiving, exploited and promoted by foolishness and greed and false zeal. None of these abuses resulted from church teachings on faith and morals which flow from the church’s understanding and interpretations of Scripture and Tradition. They’re examples of not heeding the gospel IOW-failing to love to put it another way. People behaving badly, in the church or outside of it, will continue to occur unless and until we’re all perfected in love, not bound to fully occur in this lifetime, on this planet. To expect perfection in any human-related entity means we probably haven’t looked too deeply at our own failings IMO.

Also, Catholic teachings reject legalism, as we all should of course. Humans are drawn to legalism anyway, and may or may not practice their faith accordingly to one degree or another until we're fully sanctified/perfected.

I can't find a disagree icon to select as a reply, so I'll just say that, since I am not a Catholic, I disagree.
 
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Sola Scriptura—A Definition
By sola Scriptura Protestants mean that Scripture alone is the primary and absolute source for all doctrine and practice (faith and morals). Sola Scriptura implies several things. First, the Bible is a direct revelation from God. As such, it has divine authority. For what the Bible says, God says.

Sola Scriptura—The Sufficiency of Scripture
Second, the Bible is sufficient: it is all that is necessary for faith and practice. For Protestants “the Bible alone” means “the Bible only” is the final authority for our faith.

Sola Scriptura—The Authority of Scripture
Third, the Scriptures not only have sufficiency but they also possess final authority. They are the final court of appeal on all doctrinal and moral matters. However good they may be in giving guidance, all the fathers, Popes, and Councils are fallible. Only the Bible is infallible. [emphasis mine]

Sola Scriptura—The Clarity of Scripture
Fourth, the Bible is perspicuous (clear). The perspicuity of Scripture does not mean that everything in the Bible is perfectly clear, but rather the essential teachings are. Popularly put, in the Bible the main things are the plain things, and the plain things are the main things. This does not mean — as Catholics often assume — that Protestants obtain no help from the fathers and early Councils. Indeed, Protestants accept the great theological and Christological pronouncements of the first four ecumenical Councils. What is more, most Protestants have high regard for the teachings of the early fathers, though obviously they do not believe they are infallible. [emphasis mine] So this is not to say there is no usefulness to Christian tradition, but only that it is of secondary importance.

Solo Scriptura—The Interpretiveness of Scripture
Fifth, Scripture interprets Scripture. This is known as the analogy of faith principle. When we have difficulty in understanding an unclear text of Scripture, we turn to other biblical texts. For the Bible is the best interpreter of the Bible. In the Scriptures, clear texts should be used to interpret the unclear ones.

Source: What Is Sola Scriptura? | Christian Research Institute (equip.org)
 
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<Snip>
Protestants accept the great theological and Christological pronouncements of the first four ecumenical Councils. What is more, most Protestants have high regard for the teachings of the early fathers, though obviously they do not believe they are infallible. [emphasis mine] So this is not to say there is no usefulness to Christian tradition, but only that it is of secondary importance.
<Snip>

I guess Confessional Lutherans are not "protestants" then; not only are we not legalistic, but we accept the first 7 Ecumenical councils; and we are not "legalists".
 
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