Which of these eschatology houses will get washed away suddenly?

Spiritual Jew · Jan 18, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
BACKGROUND:

GREEK WORDS FOUND IN THE VERSES IN QUESTION:

05035
ταχύ tachý, takh-oo'
neuter singular of 5036 (as adverb);
shortly, i.e. without delay, soon, or (by surprise) suddenly, or (by implication, of ease) readily:--lightly, quickly.

05036
ταχύς tachýs, takh-oos'
of uncertain affinity;
fleet, i.e. (figuratively) prompt or ready:--swift.

05030
ταχέως tachéōs, takh-eh'-oce
adverb from 5036;
briefly, i.e. (in time) speedily, or (in manner) rapidly:--hastily, quickly, shortly, soon, suddenly.

EXAMPLES

Mark 9:39
39 But Jesus said, "Do not stop him, because no one who does a miracle in my name will be able soon afterward [5035 tachý] to say anything bad about me.

Matthew 28
7 And go quickly [5035 tachý] and tell His disciples that He has risen from the dead. And, behold, He goes before you into Galilee. There you shall see Him. Lo, I have told you.
8 And they quickly departed from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word.

1 Tmothy 5:22
22 Do not lay hands quickly [5030 tachéōs] on anyone, neither be partaker of the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.

Luke 14:21
21 And coming up that servant reported these things to his lord. And the master of the house, being angry, said to his servant, Go out quickly [5030 tachéōs] into the streets and lanes of the city and bring in here the poor and the maimed, and the lame and the blind.

James 1
19 Therefore, my beloved brothers, let every man be swift [5036 tachýs] to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath.

Revelation 22
12 And behold, I am coming quickly [swiftly, suddenly, and without delay - 5035 tachý], and My reward is with Me, to give to each according as his work is.

ASSUMPTIONS AND DOCTRINES

Does it mean "soon" when used by Jesus in the Revelation? Or does it mean swiftly and without delay, and suddenly?

In my opinion, we can only decide it means "soon" by making that assumption, and once we assume it means "soon", we have to assume how soon.

HOUSES BUILT ON CLAY

Whether we use A.D 70 or any other historic occurrence to decide how soon, or if we decide to assume a time or a date for the Lord's return (whether past or future), then there is a very high chance that this decision will form a doctrine that will prove to be a foundation of clay upon which to build a house, and when Christ comes suddenly, truth will come like a flood and destroy our house.

(Actually, in Christianity there are quite a few houses built on clay, sand castles built on the sea's side of the high tide mark), but whether or not these are fortified by what looks to the human eye like the impenetrable walls of theology, creeds and anathemas, they are just castles of sand, and will get washed away suddenly.

Therefore, bearing in mind what we may be doing to our own minds when we answer these questions below,

When Jesus said "I am coming quickly [swiftly, suddenly, and without delay - 5035 tachý], and My reward is with Me, to give to each according as his work is.",

1. Did he mean "soon"; and if so,
2. How soon?
3, Or did He mean, "suddenly, and swiftly, and (when the time comes), without delay"?

To me, He clearly meant "suddenly, and swiftly, and (when the time comes), without delay". How suddenly/swiftly/fast will He come when He does come? As fast as the lightning shines from the east to the west.

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

claninja · Jan 19, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
That's a good point, but since the verb is in the present-tense, that brings up the question, is He always coming swiftly and without delay, has He always been coming swiftly and without delay, will His coming continue to be swiftly and without delay, and and is He still coming swiftly and without delay?

The present-tense of the verb still does not afford us liberty to give His coming a date, IMO.

no, I don’t think it necessarily means He is always coming. For example, In john 11, jesus stated he “is coming to the Father”. This uses a present tense verb. We know that Jesus wasn’t literally going to the Father at that present moment. He would ascend to the Father 40 days following his resurrection.

john 11:17 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

Therefore, I view the present tense coming of Christ in a similar manner.

Since I believe the olivet discourse (matthew 24:1-34) fulfilled, AND I believe revelation was written prior to 70ad, i believe the use of the present tense “I am coming” refers to Christs coming in judgement upon Israel that was literally soon to happen. In other words, I believe the present tense indicates the literal nearness of His coming.

Matthew 24:30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming (present tense) with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen.

Zao is life · Jan 19, 2022

claninja said:
Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming (present tense) with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen.

I'm going to first show you why the word you have chosen to bolster your argument does not lend credit to that argument, BUT since starting this thread I have discovered that there is another word in the Revelation which indeed lends credit to your argument, and I will speak about that afterwards:

ISV:
7 Look! He is coming in the clouds.
Every eye will see him, even those who pierced him,
and all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of him.
So be it! Amen.

The present-tense use of the verb does not imply a date (no matter which century it was to occur in). It's very typical of prophetic language to use present-tense verbs for future events.

Matthew 5:24 employs the same word:
"Leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then be coming and offer your gift.

BUT since starting this thread I have discovered that there is another word in the Revelation which indeed lends credit to your argument:

Revelation 1
3 Blessed is the one who reads and hears the words of this prophecy, and the ones keeping the things written in it, for the time is at hand [01451 engýs].

Revelation 22
10 And he said to me, Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this Book; for the time is at hand [01451 engýs].

There is not one New Testament verse using the same word, where the word does not clearly mean "it's around the corner", for example:

"And the Passover of the Jews was at hand [01451 engýs], and Jesus went up to Jerusalem." (John 2:13).

"And on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, Where do You desire that we prepare for You to eat the Passover?
And He said, Go into the city to such a man, and say to him, The Master said, My time is at hand [01451 engýs].
I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples. And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them. And they made the passover ready." (Matthew 25:17-19).

(See also Matthew 24:32-33; Matthew 26:18; Mark 13:28-29; Luke 19:11; Luke 21:30-31; John 2:13; John 3:23; John 6:4' John 6:19; John 6:23; John 7:2; John 11:18; John 11:54; John 11:55; John 19:20; John 19:42).

Now let's take a look at a second word which does not mean the same thing as above:

Revelation 22
12 And behold, I am coming quickly [swiftly, suddenly, and without delay - 5035 tachý], and My reward is with Me, to give to each according as his work is.

05035
ταχύ tachý, takh-oo'
neuter singular of 5036 (as adverb);
shortly, i.e. without delay, soon, or (by surprise) suddenly, or (by implication, of ease) readily:--lightly, quickly.

05036
ταχύς tachýs, takh-oos'
of uncertain affinity;
fleet, i.e. (figuratively) prompt or ready:--swift.

05030
ταχέως tachéōs, takh-eh'-oce
adverb from 5036;
briefly, i.e. (in time) speedily, or (in manner) rapidly:--hastily, quickly, shortly, soon, suddenly.

EXAMPLES

Mark 9:39
39 But Jesus said, "Do not stop him, because no one who does a miracle in my name will be able soon afterward [5035 tachý] to say anything bad about me.

Matthew 28
7 And go quickly [5035 tachý] and tell His disciples that He has risen from the dead. And, behold, He goes before you into Galilee. There you shall see Him. Lo, I have told you.
8 And they quickly departed from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word.

1 Tmothy 5:22
22 Do not lay hands quickly [5030 tachéōs] on anyone, neither be partaker of the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.

Luke 14:21
21 And coming up that servant reported these things to his lord. And the master of the house, being angry, said to his servant, Go out quickly [5030 tachéōs] into the streets and lanes of the city and bring in here the poor and the maimed, and the lame and the blind.

James 1
19 Therefore, my beloved brothers, let every man be swift [5036 tachýs] to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath.

Revelation 22
12 And behold, I am coming quickly [swiftly, suddenly, and without delay - 5035 tachý], and My reward is with Me, to give to each according as his work is.

Does it mean "soon" when used by Jesus in the Revelation? Or does it mean swiftly and without delay, and suddenly?

In my opinion, we can only decide it means "around the corner" by making that assumption, and once we assume it means "around the corner", we have to assume how soon.

The words "at hand" are a far better argument to use than the words you have chosen.

Please note: None of what I've said in this thread means that I believe that the Revelation applies only to the generation of Christians who existed at the time of the first generation of Christians: I believe the Revelation to be timeless, so that its reader must be able to lift his mind outside of time when he reads it, and my belief is that it applies to:

(A) The generation of Christians who existed when John received the Revelation; and
(B) Generally to all Christians in all generations; and
(C) Especially to the generation that would be alive in the final 42 months that precede the Lord's return.

I believe there is a strong possibility that the Olivet Discourse should be viewed in the same way: It applied to the generation that existed in A.D 70, and it applies to the last generation also.

Unlike Pretersists, I do not believe the following happened in A.D 70:

Matthew 24
29 And immediately, accompanying [03326 metá] the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with [03326 metá] power and great glory.

I believe that Matthew 24:9-31 is talking about one and the same tribulation, which is the tribulation of the saints, whereas Luke 21:20-24 is an interjection, i.e a "Markan Sandwich" and Luke 21:20-24 talks only about A.D 70, and I believe that the words "this generation" which imply the definite article "The" (as can be seen below), means "the generation that will be alive during the time being spoken of", which could be either A.D 70's generation, or the close of this Age's generation, or both.

03778
OU(=TOS οὗτος hoûtos hoo'-tos, including nominative masculine plural OU(=TOI οὗτοι hoûtoi hoo'-toy, nominative feminine singular AU(/TH αὕτη haútē how'-tay, and nominative feminine plural αὕται haútai, how'-tahee
from the article 3588 and 846;
the he (she or it), i.e. this or that (often with article repeated):--he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.

I don't believe the resurrection of the body in the last day which Jesus spoke about and which Paul taught us about in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 has occurred yet, nor do I believe that the return of Christ has come in the way that Preterists do, nor do I believe we can restrict either the Apocalypse of Christ or the Olivet Discourse to time, because we cannot restrict God in this way.

NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH

One could argue (and as far as I know many Preterists do argue) that in Revelation chapters 21-22 John saw a vision of what came into being on the Day of Pentecost, when the Spirit of Christ came to live in man (in His people):

2 Corinthians 5
17 So that if any one is in Christ, that one is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Revelation 21:4-5
for the first things passed away. And He sitting on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.

The river of Life is the Spirit of Christ:

John 7
38 He who believes on Me, as the Scripture has said, "Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
39 (But He spoke this about the Spirit, which they who believed on Him should receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.)

So as you can see, because I know I'm fallible and I do not want to insert my own private interpretation into the Revelation, I'm being very objective here.

DavidPT · Jan 19, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH

One could argue (and as far as I know many Preterists do argue) that in Revelation chapters 21-22 John saw a vision of what came into being on the Day of Pentecost, when the Spirit of Christ came to live in man (in His people):

2 Corinthians 5
17 So that if any one is in Christ, that one is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Revelation 21:4-5
for the first things passed away. And He sitting on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.

The river of Life is the Spirit of Christ:

John 7
38 He who believes on Me, as the Scripture has said, "Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
39 (But He spoke this about the Spirit, which they who believed on Him should receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.)

So as you can see, because I know I'm fallible and I do not want to insert my own private interpretation into the Revelation, I'm being very objective here.

While one can argue that, and that some apparently do, would it be a valid argument, though? My Bible indicates that overcomers are not rewarded until Christ returns first. Therefore, a contradiction if understanding it like that, such as with the following.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

The tree of life, whether a literal tree or meant to be understood some other way, Revelation 2:7 has it's location being in the paradise of God, and Revelation 22 has it being located in the NJ, therefore, the NJ is what is being meant by the paradise of God.

In order for the NJ to come down from God out of heaven the first heaven and the first earth have to pass away first. Though Preterists might believe that has already happened, I certainly don't, not in any sense do I believe that has already happened.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

One thing that is undeniable, whenever these words were initially spoken the first heaven and the first earth had not passed away yet, otherwise Peter wouldn't still be looking for a new heaven and new earth, it would already be there. I suspect he likely said these things post the day of Pentecost, and if so, this alone debunks the argument you were proposing as an argument by some Preterists.

parousia70 · Jan 19, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I'm going to first show you why the word you have chosen to bolster your argument does not lend credit to that argument, BUT since starting this thread I have discovered that there is another word in the Revelation which indeed lends credit to your argument, and I will speak about that afterwards:

ISV:
7 Look! He is coming in the clouds.
Every eye will see him, even those who pierced him,
and all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of him.
So be it! Amen.

The present-tense use of the verb does not imply a date (no matter which century it was to occur in). It's very typical of prophetic language to use present-tense verbs for future events.

However, John's present tense declaration of the arrival "The Tribulation of Jesus Christ" and present tense declaration of the Arrival of "the Day of the Lord", citing the present day arrival of both at the time of His writing, lends credit. (Revelation 1:9-10)

Also, One point I think you've overlooked is the use of "mello" which literally means "about to be" or "on the very point or precipice of happening".

Revelation 1:19 YLT
19 `Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;

There is no rule of language or syntax or scritptural interprative principle or hermeneutic that I am aware of, that allows for affixing 2000+ years to the phrase "The things which are about to come".

BUT since starting this thread I have discovered that there is another word in the Revelation which indeed lends credit to your argument:

Revelation 1
3 Blessed is the one who reads and hears the words of this prophecy, and the ones keeping the things written in it, for the time is at hand [01451 engýs].

Revelation 22
10 And he said to me, Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this Book; for the time is at hand [01451 engýs].

There is not one New Testament verse using the same word, where the word does not clearly mean "it's around the corner"

Your examples not withstanding, it would seem to me the strongest example is Jesus' own use of the word in Matthew 24:33 where he fully supports the preterist understanding of the word and its scriptural usage.

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near [01451 engýs], even at the doors.

Jesus is affirming that the event is ONLY "near" AFTER all the signs have been seen, and not at any time before.

Likewise, He affirms the same understanding in Luke 21:8

8 And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near. Therefore do not go after them.

How many people today, just in this message board alone, are saying "the time is near"!?
Yet Jesus is clear in His instruction that we are to NOT go after them.

In my opinion, we can only decide it means "around the corner" by making that assumption, and once we assume it means "around the corner", we have to assume how soon.

Rather, the context should determing the meaning.

Please note: None of what I've said in this thread means that I believe that the Revelation applies only to the generation of Christians who existed at the time of the first generation of Christians: I believe the Revelation to be timeless, so that its reader must be able to lift his mind outside of time when he reads it, and my belief is that it applies to:

(A) The generation of Christians who existed when John received the Revelation; and
(B) Generally to all Christians in all generations; and
(C) Especially to the generation that would be alive in the final 42 months that precede the Lord's return.

Is it not impossible for the revelation to PROPHETICALLY apply to successive generations? It can ONLY have prophetic application to one, correct?
I maintain Revelation PROPHETICALLY Applied to the First receivers, and PASTORALLY applies to All successive generations.
Similar to the Narrative of Noah's Flood.

It Prophetically applied ONLY to Noah's generation, but do we throw the narrative out of our Bibles because it does not have prophetic application to us?
Or do we assume it must also prophetically apply to us today and therefore we shoudl get to building that Ark becuase "In seven days I'll make it rain for forty days and forty nights"?
If this verse applies to us, we only have 7 days from the time we read it until the rain starts, so we'd better get crackin.

If it doesnt apply to us, then what? it's meaningless? we don't need to read or study it at all? Pretty sure no one here is claiming that.

Pretty sure most of us affirm it has PASTORAL application to all believers of All time, so we study it to uncover more about the character and nature of God.

Maybe ther's a 3rd option I'm overlooking?

I believe there is a strong possibility that the Olivet Discourse should be viewed in the same way: It applied to the generation that existed in A.D 70, and it applies to the last generation also.

And applies to no one in between? is useless and irrelevant for all those inbetween?

Unlike Pretersists, I do not believe the following happened in A.D 70:

Matthew 24
29 And immediately, accompanying [03326 metá] the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with [03326 metá] power and great glory.

Yet do you, Like Preterists, affirm similar events as "the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken, and the Spectacle of God Coming on the clouds being seen by the eyes of all nations, weilding His sword, and Killing His enemies with His Brightness did indeed happened throghout the many past fulfilled OT Judgements as Scripture testifies?

I just wonder where scripture teaches you to Take the language of 2 Samuel 22:8-16, for example, or Isaiah 13:10, Isaiah 52:10, Ezekiel 5:9, to name a few, figuratively, but then apply a polar opposite, literal interpretation to the exact same language when you find it in the NT?

Yahweh destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16).

Why do you spiritualize those passages, but require a literal rendering of the same language in the NT?

So as you can see, because I know I'm fallible and I do not want to insert my own private interpretation into the Revelation, I'm being very objective here.

You are and it's quite refreshing.
Instructive for the rest of us for sure.

parousia70 · Jan 19, 2022

DavidPT said:
In order for the NJ to come down from God out of heaven the first heaven and the first earth have to pass away first. Though Preterists might believe that has already happened, I certainly don't, not in any sense do I believe that has already happened.

Interesting.
Do you Believe this literally happened at the time of David's Battlefield Victory over Saul?

2 Samuel 22:8-16
8“Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.
14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
16 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.

Or do you believe this literally happened when Babylon Sacked Israel to begin the 70 year Captivity?

Jeremiah 4:22-30
23I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void;
And the heavens, they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled,
And all the hills moved back and forth.
25 I beheld, and indeed there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were broken down
At the presence of the Lord,
By His fierce anger.

27 For thus says the Lord:

“The whole land shall be desolate;
Yet I will not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn,
And the heavens above be black,
Because I have spoken.
I have purposed and will not relent,
Nor will I turn back from it.
29 The whole city shall flee from the noise of the horsemen and bowmen.
They shall go into thickets and climb up on the rocks.
Every city shall be forsaken,
And not a man shall dwell in it.

30 “And when you are plundered,
What will you do?
Though you clothe yourself with crimson,
Though you adorn yourself with ornaments of gold,
Though you enlarge your eyes with paint,
In vain you will make yourself fair;
Your lovers will despise you;
They will seek your life.

Or do you believe This Literally Happened when Babylon sacked Egypt?

Ezekiel 32:1-16
1 And it came to pass in the twelfth year, in the twelfth month, on the first day of the month, that the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say to him:

‘You are like a young lion among the nations,
And you are like a monster in the seas,
Bursting forth in your rivers,
Troubling the waters with your feet,
And fouling their rivers.

3 ‘Thus says the Lord God:

“I will therefore spread My net over you with a company of many people,
And they will draw you up in My net.
4 Then I will leave you on the land;
I will cast you out on the open fields,
And cause to settle on you all the birds of the heavens.
And with you I will fill the beasts of the whole earth.
5 I will lay your flesh on the mountains,
And fill the valleys with your carcass.

6 “I will also water the land with the flow of your blood,
Even to the mountains;
And the riverbeds will be full of you.
7 When I put out your light,
I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark;
I will cover the sun with a cloud,
And the moon shall not give her light.
8 All the bright lights of the heavens I will make dark over you,
And bring darkness upon your land,”
Says the Lord God.

9 ‘I will also trouble the hearts of many peoples, when I bring your destruction among the nations, into the countries which you have not known. 10 Yes, I will make many peoples astonished at you, and their kings shall be horribly afraid of you when I brandish My sword before them; and they shall tremble every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of your fall.

11 ‘For thus says the Lord God: “The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon you. 12 By the swords of the mighty warriors, all of them the most terrible of the nations, I will cause your multitude to fall.

“They shall plunder the pomp of Egypt,
And all its multitude shall be destroyed.
13 Also I will destroy all its animals
From beside its great waters;
The foot of man shall muddy them no more,
Nor shall the hooves of animals muddy them.
14 Then I will make their waters clear,
And make their rivers run like oil,”
Says the Lord God.

15 “When I make the land of Egypt desolate,
And the country is destitute of all that once filled it,
When I strike all who dwell in it,
Then they shall know that I am the Lord.

16 “This is the lamentation
With which they shall lament her;
The daughters of the nations shall lament her;
They shall lament for her, for Egypt,
And for all her multitude,”
Says the Lord God.’ ”

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

One thing that is undeniable, whenever these words were initially spoken the first heaven and the first earth had not passed away yet, otherwise Peter wouldn't still be looking for a new heaven and new earth, it would already be there. I suspect he likely said these things post the day of Pentecost.

Israel's institution as a Nation under Moses and Joshua was the planting of Heavens and Earth

Isaiah 51:15-16
For I am Yahweh your God, who stirs up the sea, so that the waves of it roar: Yahweh of Hosts is his name. I have put my words in your mouth, and have covered you in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and tell Zion, You are my people.

Deuteronomy 31:28
Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

As detailed above, The "shaking/removal of Heavens and Earth" describes any of Jehovah's comings in judgment upon nations and individuals

Against Ancient Babylon
Isaiah 13:13
Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Jeremiah 51:48
Then the heaven and the earth, and all that [is] therein, shall sing for Babylon: for the spoilers shall come unto her from the north, saith the LORD

Against King Saul
Psalms 18:7-10
Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills removed and were shaken, because he was wroth ... He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

Against Persia during Zerubbabel's Day
Haggai 2:21
Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth

Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70. That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mark 13:31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone.

The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).

I just don't see how anyone with even a basic understanding of the precidented use of this "Shaking, Burning, Darkening and Removal of Heavnes and Earth" language throughout the OT can assert that, "When found in the NT this language MUST be taken Literally and therefore could NOT have happened yet, But it's absolutely Figurative throughout the OT and for sure took place multiple times back then."

DavidPT · Jan 19, 2022

parousia70 said:
Interesting.
Do you Believe this literally happened at the time of Daivis Battlefield Victory over Saul?

2 Samuel 22:8-16
8“Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.
14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
16 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.

Or do you believe this literally happened when Babylon Sacked Israel to begin the 70 year Captivity?

Jeremiah 4:22-30
23I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void;
And the heavens, they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled,
And all the hills moved back and forth.
25 I beheld, and indeed there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were broken down
At the presence of the Lord,
By His fierce anger.

27 For thus says the Lord:

“The whole land shall be desolate;
Yet I will not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn,
And the heavens above be black,
Because I have spoken.
I have purposed and will not relent,
Nor will I turn back from it.
29 The whole city shall flee from the noise of the horsemen and bowmen.
They shall go into thickets and climb up on the rocks.
Every city shall be forsaken,
And not a man shall dwell in it.

30 “And when you are plundered,
What will you do?
Though you clothe yourself with crimson,
Though you adorn yourself with ornaments of gold,
Though you enlarge your eyes with paint,
In vain you will make yourself fair;
Your lovers will despise you;
They will seek your life.

Or do you believe This Literally Happened when Babylon sacked Egypt?

Ezekiel 32:1-16
1 And it came to pass in the twelfth year, in the twelfth month, on the first day of the month, that the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say to him:

‘You are like a young lion among the nations,
And you are like a monster in the seas,
Bursting forth in your rivers,
Troubling the waters with your feet,
And fouling their rivers.

3 ‘Thus says the Lord God:

“I will therefore spread My net over you with a company of many people,
And they will draw you up in My net.
4 Then I will leave you on the land;
I will cast you out on the open fields,
And cause to settle on you all the birds of the heavens.
And with you I will fill the beasts of the whole earth.
5 I will lay your flesh on the mountains,
And fill the valleys with your carcass.

6 “I will also water the land with the flow of your blood,
Even to the mountains;
And the riverbeds will be full of you.
7 When I put out your light,
I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark;
I will cover the sun with a cloud,
And the moon shall not give her light.
8 All the bright lights of the heavens I will make dark over you,
And bring darkness upon your land,”
Says the Lord God.

9 ‘I will also trouble the hearts of many peoples, when I bring your destruction among the nations, into the countries which you have not known. 10 Yes, I will make many peoples astonished at you, and their kings shall be horribly afraid of you when I brandish My sword before them; and they shall tremble every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of your fall.

11 ‘For thus says the Lord God: “The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon you. 12 By the swords of the mighty warriors, all of them the most terrible of the nations, I will cause your multitude to fall.

“They shall plunder the pomp of Egypt,
And all its multitude shall be destroyed.
13 Also I will destroy all its animals
From beside its great waters;
The foot of man shall muddy them no more,
Nor shall the hooves of animals muddy them.
14 Then I will make their waters clear,
And make their rivers run like oil,”
Says the Lord God.

15 “When I make the land of Egypt desolate,
And the country is destitute of all that once filled it,
When I strike all who dwell in it,
Then they shall know that I am the Lord.

16 “This is the lamentation
With which they shall lament her;
The daughters of the nations shall lament her;
They shall lament for her, for Egypt,
And for all her multitude,”
Says the Lord God.’ ”

Israel's institution as a Nation under Moses and Joshua was the planting of Heavens and Earth

Isaiah 51:15-16
For I am Yahweh your God, who stirs up the sea, so that the waves of it roar: Yahweh of Hosts is his name. I have put my words in your mouth, and have covered you in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and tell Zion, You are my people.

Deuteronomy 31:28
Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

As detailed above, The "shaking/removal of Heavens and Earth" describes any of Jehovah's comings in judgment upon nations and individuals

Against Ancient Babylon
Isaiah 13:13
Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Jeremiah 51:48
Then the heaven and the earth, and all that [is] therein, shall sing for Babylon: for the spoilers shall come unto her from the north, saith the LORD

Against King Saul
Psalms 18:7-10
Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills removed and were shaken, because he was wroth ... He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

Against Persia during Zerubbabel's Day
Haggai 2:21
Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth

Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70. That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mark 13:31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone.

The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).

I just don't see how anyone with even a basic understanding of the precidented use of this "Shaking, Burning, Darkening and Removal of Heavnes and Earth" language throughout the OT can assert that, "When found in the NT this language MUST be taken Literally and therefore could NOT have happened yet, But it's absolutely Figurative throughout the OT and for sure took place multiple times back then."

Are you asking me if I believe those things literally happened like described, or are you asking me something else? I'm assuming, unless you tell me otherwise, the former. The anwer would be no I do not take all those things in a literal sense. But even so, 2 Peter 3 alone already proves, that at the time of him having said/written those things, the NHNE had not arrived yet, otherwise he wouldn't still be looking for a NHNE in the future, it would already be there, not something he was still waiting for.

parousia70 · Jan 19, 2022

DavidPT said:
Are you asking me if I believe those things literally happened like described, or are you asking me something else? I'm assuming, unless you tell me otherwise, the former. The anwer would be no I do not take all those things in a literal sense. But even so, 2 Peter 3 alone already proves, that at the time of him having said/written those things, the NHNE had not arrived yet, otherwise he wouldn't still be looking for a NHNE in the future, it would already be there, not something he was still waiting for.

So you would agree that just because Peter was still waiting for it to take place, doesen't necessitate it be literal?

His future expectation for sure does not negate the preterist understanding of it arriving a few short years after Peter wrote his epistles.

Spiritual Jew · Jan 19, 2022

parousia70 said:
However, John's present tense declaration of the arrival "The Tribulation of Jesus Christ" and present tense declaration of the Arrival of "the Day of the Lord", citing the present day arrival of both at the time of His writing, lends credit. (Revelation 1:9-10)

Also, One point I think you've overlooked is the use of "mello" which literally means "about to be" or "on the very point or precipice of happening".

Revelation 1:19 YLT
19 `Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;

There is no rule of language or syntax or scritptural interprative principle or hermeneutic that I am aware of, that allows for affixing 2000+ years to the phrase "The things which are about to come".

Did the entire "thousand years" happen soon after John wrote the book? No. So, that alone disproves your interpretation of Revelation 1:19.

The Greek word "mello" does not always mean "about to be" or "on the very point or precipice of happening". The word is used in Matthew 11:14.

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for (mello) to come.

Elijah (Elias), which turned out to be John the Baptist, didn't come until about 400 years after Malachi prophesied about his coming in Malachi 4. You're trying to say that the word can only refer to something that is about to happen soon, but here is a case where it is used to describe something that happened 400 years later after it was prophesied to happen.

Spiritual Jew · Jan 19, 2022

DavidPT said:
While one can argue that, and that some apparently do, would it be a valid argument, though? My Bible indicates that overcomers are not rewarded until Christ returns first. Therefore, a contradiction if understanding it like that, such as with the following.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

The tree of life, whether a literal tree or meant to be understood some other way, Revelation 2:7 has it's location being in the paradise of God, and Revelation 22 has it being located in the NJ, therefore, the NJ is what is being meant by the paradise of God.

In order for the NJ to come down from God out of heaven the first heaven and the first earth have to pass away first. Though Preterists might believe that has already happened, I certainly don't, not in any sense do I believe that has already happened.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

One thing that is undeniable, whenever these words were initially spoken the first heaven and the first earth had not passed away yet, otherwise Peter wouldn't still be looking for a new heaven and new earth, it would already be there. I suspect he likely said these things post the day of Pentecost, and if so, this alone debunks the argument you were proposing as an argument by some Preterists.

I agree. It's very clear that 2 Peter 3:13 refutes the idea that the new heavens and new earth were ushered in on the day of Pentecost since that verse was obviously written well after the day of Pentecost and is talking about something that had not yet happened.

I'm not sure if anyone is actually arguing that the new heavens and new earth were ushered in on the day of Pentecost, though. I know FotG said some preterists believe that, but I'm not sure if that's correct. So, this might be just be a case of refuting a straw man.

Spiritual Jew · Jan 19, 2022

parousia70 said:
So you would agree that just because Peter was still waiting for it to take place, doesen't necessitate it be literal?

His future expectation for sure does not negate the preterist understanding of it arriving a few short years after Peter wrote his epistles.

You missed the point here. It was stated by "Fullness of the Gentiles" that some preterists believe the new heavens and new earth were ushered in on the day of Pentecost in the sense that it made believers new creations or creatures in Christ. So, all David was doing was refuting that belief by referencing 2 Peter 3:13 which indicates that the new heavens and new earth was still something believers were looking forward to as of the time Peter wrote that verse, which obviously was after the day of Pentecost.

Zao is life · Jan 19, 2022

DavidPT said:
While one can argue that, and that some apparently do, would it be a valid argument, though? My Bible indicates that overcomers are not rewarded until Christ returns first. Therefore, a contradiction if understanding it like that, such as with the following.

Yes and I agree but that wouldn't be a problem for Preterists. I was playing Preterist Advocate to show calninja that I understand his point of view.

DavidPT said:
One thing that is undeniable, whenever these words were initially spoken the first heaven and the first earth had not passed away yet, otherwise Peter wouldn't still be looking for a new heaven and new earth, it would already be there. I suspect he likely said these things post the day of Pentecost, and if so, this alone debunks the argument you were proposing as an argument by some Preterists.

That is so important. Thank you for pointing that out.

If this was one of "those" threads Amil would be able to quickly ask us, if we believe what Peter says about that, why don't we believe him when he says the current heaven and earth is going to be dissolved by fire before the NHNE

.. and they would have a point regarding that point, because we cannot ignore Peter's words, besides the other statements in the gospels and in the epistles which agree with Peter's statements.

DavidPT said:
the tree of life

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

For me, and in my opinion and belief, I don't know how anyone can acknowledge the metaphor that appears so consistently in Apocalyptic biblical literature, and fail to recognize and acknowledge that Genesis chapters 1-3 are an Apocalypse telling a true story using a lot of metaphor. John 1:4; John 14:6; John 6:63 and Psalm 33:6 are just a few scripture verses that teach us that the "tree" is not a literal tree. We are sharing the fruit of the "tree" of life even as we speak. The Word of God is the fruit of the "tree" of life.

DavidPT said:
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

And that also starts long before the NHNE (1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:22; 1 John 5:2-3; 2 John 1:6).

We are partaking of the fruit of the tree of life now. It's like the Kingdom of Christ that IS (has) come (using biblical language) and the Kingdom of Christ that is COMING. The NHNE is already part of our experience in some respects, but as Christians most of us have forgotten - except the Preterists, who have remembered

- but that does not mean that the Preterists are correct in their Preterism.

In my opinion the paradox of it all is "marvelous". I love it.

DavidPT said:
The tree of life, whether a literal tree or meant to be understood some other way, Revelation 2:7 has it's location being in the paradise of God, and Revelation 22 has it being located in the NJ, therefore, the NJ is what is being meant by the paradise of God.

Thank you for pointing that out. I agree. The population of the church = the holy city = New Jerusalem = the population of the NHNE.

DavidPT said:
In order for the NJ to come down from God out of heaven the first heaven and the first earth have to pass away first. Though Preterists might believe that has already happened, I certainly don't, not in any sense do I believe that has already happened.

Yes the beast will have to be in the LOF.

OK that's probably not a problem for Peterism either.

DavidPT said:
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

One thing that is undeniable, whenever these words were initially spoken the first heaven and the first earth had not passed away yet, otherwise Peter wouldn't still be looking for a new heaven and new earth, it would already be there. I suspect he likely said these things post the day of Pentecost, and if so, this alone debunks the argument you were proposing as an argument by some Preterists

Very good point. I also doubt (seriously doubt) that I will ever wind up placing the resurrection the New Testament teaches about (and that Paul taught about in 1 Corinthians 15 and 2 Thess 4) in the past.

Also, the current heavens and earth would have been destroyed by fire before New Jerusalem descends from God out of heaven, according to Peter.

This brings me again to the reason for my signature:There are more than "one too many" theology/eschatology platforms that Christians attempt to force the scriptures to conform to.

But that's also why I must at least consider that any point of view may be correct even though I don't see it that way, otherwise I will be a hypocrite.

parousia70 · Jan 19, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
You missed the point here. It was stated by "Fullness of the Gentiles" that some preterists believe the new heavens and new earth were ushered in on the day of Pentecost in the sense that it made believers new creations or creatures in Christ.

Thats a new one on me.
Which preterists assert that?

parousia70 · Jan 19, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
I'm not sure if anyone is actually arguing that the new heavens and new earth were ushered in on the day of Pentecost, though. I know FotG said some preterists believe that, but I'm not sure if that's correct. So, this might be just be a case of refuting a straw man.

Sorry, I missed this one SJ..
I would agree this is a straw man.

Been studying preterism and preterists for over 20 years and have yet to come across even one who believes this.

parousia70 · Jan 19, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
Did the entire "thousand years" happen soon after John wrote the book?

Since, as you know, I hold the thousand years of Revelation as a typological reference to the 1000 year Length of the Davidic Monarchy, which began with David and was completed in the generation of Jesus Christ a thousand years later, I'd have to answer "yes" to your question.

The Greek word "mello" does not always mean "about to be" or "on the very point or precipice of happening". The word is used in Matthew 11:14.

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for (mello) to come.

Elijah (Elias), which turned out to be John the Baptist, didn't come until about 400 years after Malachi prophesied about his coming in Malachi 4. You're trying to say that the word can only refer to something that is about to happen soon, but here is a case where it is used to describe something that happened 400 years later after it was prophesied to happen.

I think its perfectly reasonable to affirm the meaning "about to" in this instance as well, for in the very generation of the people Jesus was directly addressing, John the Baptist was indeed "about to come" in their generation. Indeed the YLT renders it thusly:

14 and if ye are willing to receive [it], he is Elijah who was about to come

Jesus was not addressing people who lived 100-400 years earlier.

Zao is life · Jan 19, 2022

parousia70 said:
However, John's present tense declaration of the arrival "The Tribulation of Jesus Christ" and present tense declaration of the Arrival of "the Day of the Lord", citing the present day arrival of both at the time of His writing, lends credit. (Revelation 1:9-10)

Also, One point I think you've overlooked is the use of "mello" which literally means "about to be" or "on the very point or precipice of happening".

Revelation 1:19 YLT
19 `Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;

There is no rule of language or syntax or scritptural interprative principle or hermeneutic that I am aware of, that allows for affixing 2000+ years to the phrase "The things which are about to come".

Yes. That word has confused me when I saw it in Revelation 17:8 regarding the beast that John was told was about to ascend out of the bottomless pit.

I'm busy turning all these things around in my mind while at the same time trying to rely on the Holy Spirit completely and on my human intellect only as far as it has submitted and yielded to the Holy Spirit. For humans that is not an easy thing to do, and for some of us it's even more difficult than for others. So I appreciate all this type of input.

I've had that word mello in mind because of its use in Revelation 17:8 for quite some time. Now you've given me a third verse to turn around in my mind.

Here the Lord says the same thing twice in one sentence:

Matthew 24
33 So you, likewise, when you see all these things, shall know that it is near [engýs], at the doors.

"at the doors". I reckon if I owed tax and had been told the taxman was on his way, and I knew he was standing outside my door, I would understand what engýs means.

I did notice it. I just needed to shorten my previous post to 3 Resurrections.

I also noticed that the Lord was still speaking about what He had been speaking about in the Olivet Discourse.

BUT I've also noticed that in Matthew 24, the words [05119 tóte, "at the time that"], [02532 kaí, "and"], [01161 dé, "also, moreover, but"], [oûn, "threfore, wherefore] etc etc join the tribulation of the disciples of Jesus mentioned in the verse 9 introduction to the tribulation (being spoken about in Matthew's gospel) to the rest of the prophecy.

Those words join all the sentences together, making it 100% obvious to the reader being intellectually honest with himself that it's the tribulation of the disciples of Jesus being spoken about in Matthew's gospel, so unless I want to remain willfully blind to the fact, I will be able to see that this part of what Jesus said on the Mount of Olives that day is not referring to the tribulation that Luke was saying (in Luke 21:20-24) the Jews would experience as a result of the wrath of God coming upon that generation in A.D 70.

Note: My apologies for the bold emphasis, it's just that to the very same degree that Preterists can see the refusal of futurists to acknowledge things like the following part of your quote, I can see that Preterists will not acknowledge the truth of what I just said above.

parousia70 said:
Your examples not withstanding, it would seem to me the strongest example is Jesus' own use of the word in Matthew 24:33 where he fully supports the preterist understanding of the word and its scriptural usage.

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near [01451 engýs], even at the doors.

Jesus is affirming that the event is ONLY "near" AFTER all the signs have been seen, and not at any time before.

Likewise, He affirms the same understanding in Luke 21:8

8 And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near. Therefore do not go after them.

But the Bible interprets the Bible, and unless we willfully ignore the grammar of Matthew 24:29-31 and the fact that the words, "at the time that", "and" "wherefore/therefore", "but" and "for" join everything that is being said, to verse 9 where it's the tribulation of those who believe in Jesus being spoken about, then we cannot point fingers at those who don't hear what Preterits are trying to tell them about the verses you just mentioned above.

The same goes for the teaching of the apostles regarding the resurrection of the dead, Peter's statements regarding the NHNE he was looking forward to, etc etc (because Preterists cannot hear what futurists are trying to tell them either).

So because the Bible interprets the Bible, no one gets away with willfully ignoring things like the things I just pointed out AND like the things you pointed out above, ensuring that everything in the scriptures be interpreted in such a way as to fit a particular theological/eschatological box,

and then still pointing a finger at others for doing the same.

parousia70 said:
How many people today, just in this message board alone, are saying "the time is near"!?
Yet Jesus is clear in His instruction that we are to NOT go after them.

I think it's a totally unfair and unjust finger to point, firstly because you fail to mention when pointing that finger that the verse you bring up is talking about those who both claim to be God/Christ, and say, "the time is near".

We all know that Jesus was warning about false prophets and false Christs coming before His parousia, and because He repeatedly, after giving signs of His coming, told His flock to watch.

So unless they are exalting themselves claiming to be prophets or even worse - God - your false accusation against those who believe He is near and are watching for His parousia, just because you believe something different, is unfair and unjust, and smacks of bullying.

parousia70 said:
Rather, the context should determing the meaning.

Except when it comes to things like what Preterists and others (not only Preterists) want to believe about Matthew's record of what the Lord said in His Oliver Discourse.

But I agree, the text should be determining the meaning at all times, even when it does not make sense to my fallible mind because it seems like a contradiction of other texts to me.

For example:

IF (and only IF) what the Lord spoke about as recorded by Matthew (not by Luke 21, but my Matthew in Matthew 24) is speaking about His parousia which is still coming, then the signs He was giving His disciples in Matthew's record are what He means we should watch for, but it also would have applied to what His disciples of the first century should have been watching for, and it applies to every generation of Christians:

parousia70 said:
Is it not impossible for the revelation to PROPHETICALLY apply to successive generations? It can ONLY have prophetic application to one, correct?

Correct, and i have repeatedly said that what Jesus says to one, He says to all: The messages to the seven churches should be heeded by all Christians of every generation, because it applies to all.

So we're in agreement as to what you say below excluding the part where you say,

parousia70 said:
I maintain Revelation PROPHETICALLY Applied to the First receivers.

But the rest we agree on:

parousia70 said:
and PASTORALLY applies to All successive generations.
Similar to the Narrative of Noah's Flood.

If it doesnt apply to us, then what? it's meaningless? we don't need to read or study it at all? Pretty sure no one here is claiming that.

I doubt very much that anyone here is claiming that the judgment that came upon Noah's generation (all except Noah and his family) is not a lesson for us and a teaching aiding us to understand the Bible better.

parousia70 said:
And applies to no one in between? is useless and irrelevant for all those inbetween?

No, and in other posts I've made it clear that is not what I believe.

However, the fact that you apply everything prophetically to only the 1st century Christians seems to me like a position that can only be obtained by ignoring certain facts and/or interpreting a number of different verses and passages in such a way as to ensure it fits neatly with the platform.

I think you have noticed by now that I don't do that. I'm 100% open and honest about the fact that I believe x, y, and z, but there are problems with x,y and z in d, e, and f - and I even speak about some of those problems before anyone else points them out to me.

parousia70 said:
Yet do you, Like Preterists, affirm similar events as "the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken, and the Spectacle of God Coming on the clouds being seen by the eyes of all nations, weilding His sword, and Killing His enemies with His Brightness did indeed happened throghout the many past fulfilled OT Judgements as Scripture testifies?

When you say "like the Preterists" and then ask me where I take the language in other scriptures like Isaiah 13:10, it makes me wonder why, as though you are making me say something I already said.

Don't overlook the fact that the metaphor which symbolized the literal destruction of the ancient Babylonian king and defeat of his kingdom and everything that took place then at that time, became a biblical type of Christ's judgment of the nations.

No one will ever be able to see it that way if they believe that the (same or very similar) metaphor that was used by Isaiah when prophesying the destruction of Babylon (for example in Isaiah 13:10), and used again by Jesus as recorded in Matthew 24:29-31, and by John in Revelation 6:12-17,

was referring to the destruction of Judea and Jerusalem in A.D 66-70, and to nothing else, i.e not to the destruction of the nations at the (future) return of Christ.

Only if Babylon is a type of the nations, and the nations have been utterly destroyed, and the church (New Jerusalem) is reigning over her own kingdom unhindered by the Babylonian/Roman/Revelation 13 10-horned beast, does the destruction of ancient Babylon become a type of the destruction of the Babylonian/Roman/Revelation 13 10-horned beast - but not if it's referring to the destruction of the forerunner of the church. Judea that was destroyed by the Romans in A.D 66-70 was not the 10-horned beast of the Revelation.

Please note: My bold highlights are not to argue disagreeably, but merely to emphasize things that I want yourself and anyone else who may read this thread to be aware of.

Spiritual Jew · Jan 19, 2022

parousia70 said:
Since, as you know, I hold the thousand years of Revelation as a typological reference to the 1000 year Length of the Davidic Monarchy, which began with David and was completed in the generation of Jesus Christ a thousand years later, I'd have to answer "yes" to your question.

I forgot that you believed that. I knew claninja believes that, but forgot that you did. You are probably already aware that I could not possibly disagree more with that interpretation of the thousand years, so I won't say any more about that.

I think its perfectly reasonable to affirm the meaning "about to" in this instance as well, for in the very generation of the people Jesus was directly addressing, John the Baptist was indeed "about to come" in their generation. Indeed the YLT renders it thusly:

14 and if ye are willing to receive [it], he is Elijah who was about to come

Jesus was not addressing people who lived 100-400 years earlier.

Did they somehow know that Elijah (John the Baptist) was about to come soon before he actually came? If so, where is the evidence for that?

I disagree that the word was being used in that way in that verse. Elijah was to come as of the time the prophecy was made and that was 400 years before he actually came (it wasn't Elijah himself and was John the Baptist instead, but that's beside the point).

I don't believe that the word "mello" can only refer to something that was about to happen soon as you seem to believe. I believe it can be used to refer to something that was certain to happen, but not necessarily about to happen soon. Here is an article written by a Greek expert who agrees with me on this: What About the Time Texts, Part 4.

If this person is correct then that means the word mello itself does not mean something is necessarily "about to" happen but rather refers to the certainty of something that will happen, which could be something that is about to happen or something that won't happen for a long time (but will certainly happen).

Since I don't think either of us are Greek experts (looking at the YLT translation or Greek Bible resources doesn't make us experts) then there's not much either of us can do to prove that one way or another and it's a matter of opinion on what the word can mean in any given verse and what it means in any of the verses in question where it is used.

Zao is life · Jan 19, 2022

parousia70 said:
Sorry, I missed this one SJ..
I would agree this is a straw man.

Been studying preterism and preterists for over 20 years and have yet to come across even one who believes this.

@parousia70 @Spiritual Jew @DavidPT
@EVERYONE else
My apologies. I have in the back of my mind that someone who is a Preterist said or implied that, and maybe whoever it was never even meant that. I may have misunderstood him and from then on believed that that was what Preterists believe.

It was not a deliberate straw man.

Spiritual Jew · Jan 19, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
@parousia70 @Spiritual Jew
@EVERYONE else
My apologies. I have in the back of my mind that someone who is a Preterist said or implied that, and maybe whoever it was never even meant that. I may have misunderstood him and from then on believed that that was what Preterists believe.

It was not a deliberate straw man.

No problem. I certainly didn't think it was a deliberate straw man and was not intending to claim that. I figured you were just mistaken about what some preterists you have talked to believe. And it could be that they were just not being clear about what they believe for all I know.

Zao is life · Jan 19, 2022

parousia70 said:
Interesting.
Do you Believe this literally happened at the time of David's Battlefield Victory over Saul?

2 Samuel 22:8-16
8“Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.
14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
16 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.

Or do you believe this literally happened when Babylon Sacked Israel to begin the 70 year Captivity?

Jeremiah 4:22-30
23I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void;
And the heavens, they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled,
And all the hills moved back and forth.
25 I beheld, and indeed there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were broken down
At the presence of the Lord,
By His fierce anger.

27 For thus says the Lord:

“The whole land shall be desolate;
Yet I will not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn,
And the heavens above be black,
Because I have spoken.
I have purposed and will not relent,
Nor will I turn back from it.
29 The whole city shall flee from the noise of the horsemen and bowmen.
They shall go into thickets and climb up on the rocks.
Every city shall be forsaken,
And not a man shall dwell in it.

30 “And when you are plundered,
What will you do?
Though you clothe yourself with crimson,
Though you adorn yourself with ornaments of gold,
Though you enlarge your eyes with paint,
In vain you will make yourself fair;
Your lovers will despise you;
They will seek your life.

Or do you believe This Literally Happened when Babylon sacked Egypt?

Ezekiel 32:1-16
1 And it came to pass in the twelfth year, in the twelfth month, on the first day of the month, that the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say to him:

‘You are like a young lion among the nations,
And you are like a monster in the seas,
Bursting forth in your rivers,
Troubling the waters with your feet,
And fouling their rivers.

3 ‘Thus says the Lord God:

“I will therefore spread My net over you with a company of many people,
And they will draw you up in My net.
4 Then I will leave you on the land;
I will cast you out on the open fields,
And cause to settle on you all the birds of the heavens.
And with you I will fill the beasts of the whole earth.
5 I will lay your flesh on the mountains,
And fill the valleys with your carcass.

6 “I will also water the land with the flow of your blood,
Even to the mountains;
And the riverbeds will be full of you.
7 When I put out your light,
I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark;
I will cover the sun with a cloud,
And the moon shall not give her light.
8 All the bright lights of the heavens I will make dark over you,
And bring darkness upon your land,”
Says the Lord God.

9 ‘I will also trouble the hearts of many peoples, when I bring your destruction among the nations, into the countries which you have not known. 10 Yes, I will make many peoples astonished at you, and their kings shall be horribly afraid of you when I brandish My sword before them; and they shall tremble every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of your fall.

11 ‘For thus says the Lord God: “The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon you. 12 By the swords of the mighty warriors, all of them the most terrible of the nations, I will cause your multitude to fall.

“They shall plunder the pomp of Egypt,
And all its multitude shall be destroyed.
13 Also I will destroy all its animals
From beside its great waters;
The foot of man shall muddy them no more,
Nor shall the hooves of animals muddy them.
14 Then I will make their waters clear,
And make their rivers run like oil,”
Says the Lord God.

15 “When I make the land of Egypt desolate,
And the country is destitute of all that once filled it,
When I strike all who dwell in it,
Then they shall know that I am the Lord.

16 “This is the lamentation
With which they shall lament her;
The daughters of the nations shall lament her;
They shall lament for her, for Egypt,
And for all her multitude,”
Says the Lord God.’ ”

Israel's institution as a Nation under Moses and Joshua was the planting of Heavens and Earth

Isaiah 51:15-16
For I am Yahweh your God, who stirs up the sea, so that the waves of it roar: Yahweh of Hosts is his name. I have put my words in your mouth, and have covered you in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and tell Zion, You are my people.

Deuteronomy 31:28
Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

As detailed above, The "shaking/removal of Heavens and Earth" describes any of Jehovah's comings in judgment upon nations and individuals

Against Ancient Babylon
Isaiah 13:13
Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Jeremiah 51:48
Then the heaven and the earth, and all that [is] therein, shall sing for Babylon: for the spoilers shall come unto her from the north, saith the LORD

Against King Saul
Psalms 18:7-10
Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills removed and were shaken, because he was wroth ... He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

Against Persia during Zerubbabel's Day
Haggai 2:21
Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth

Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70. That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mark 13:31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone.

The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).

I just don't see how anyone with even a basic understanding of the precidented use of this "Shaking, Burning, Darkening and Removal of Heavnes and Earth" language throughout the OT can assert that, "When found in the NT this language MUST be taken Literally and therefore could NOT have happened yet, But it's absolutely Figurative throughout the OT and for sure took place multiple times back then."

copy @DavidPT
@parousia70 While that metaphor you point out is true, in my opinion, (I'm not personally sure about whether or not it applies to what Peter was saying, but the rest is true), you however offer no indication whatsoever in your post as to whether or not you believe that what Peter spoke about has already come, i.e the destruction of what was still the system at the time Peter wrote, and its replacement with a new heavens and new earth.

I ask this because you cannot have the one without the other, unless you want to place a gap of thousands of years between the destruction of the system Peter was talking about, and its replacement with the new heavens and new earth Peter stated is going to replace it.

Which of these eschatology houses will get washed away suddenly?

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