Womens roles in the church

trophy33 · Jan 19, 2022

Archivist said:
I have said numerous times that the matter of female pastors in open to interpretation.

I am not your follower, I can respond only to specific posts.

Archivist said:
Yes, the verse can be used as evidence.

Or cannot. It depends on the interpretation, obviously.

Archivist · Jan 19, 2022

All Glory To God said:
Do you think there is any persons that should be excluded from being a pastor?

Non-Christians. I certainly don’t think that sex should serve as a basis for deciding who gets ordained.

Archivist · Jan 19, 2022

myst33 said:
I am not your follower, I can respond only to specific posts.

You don’t need to be my follower to read the thread.

Or cannot. It depends on the interpretation, obviously.

I go with the plain meaning of the words. Yes, it can be used as evidence.

Archivist · Jan 19, 2022

All Glory To God said:
They are either telling lies or deceived because no-one can be called who does not fit the criteria in the scriptures. Unless the Holy spirit is contradicting himself by willing one thing in the word and another by divinely calling people. I do not believe God contradicts himself, so these ''calls'' are fraudulent.

1Timothy 3:12 tells us that “a deacon must be faithful to his wife.” Yet Paul tells us that Phoebe was a deacon. Is that a contradiction?

Paidiske · Jan 19, 2022

LoveofTruth said:
As I have showed you many churches Gid sent me to we’re not in His order according to scripture or His commands. So right from the start there is no room to have a hearing in the church the right way. There is false leadership and authority and massive man made traditions that make the word of God of no effect.

I disagree that there's no room to have a hearing in the church in the right way. But if you choose to set yourself over a group in this way, then it's no wonder that you have problems. People aren't supposed to appoint themselves to ministry and leadership roles in the churches.

LoveofTruth said:
As far as legal issues that you bring up and police checks etc. The churches that I have worked with had no issues this way we do not join hands with the world and govern ourselves in Christ....
Ma my wrong church orders are bound to the world because of tax exemptions and government control and they all allow man made commandments and by laws which are created to deal with them and the government.

This is a very American perspective. Where I am, there is nothing about tax exemptions etc. But I would never trust any church or group which refused to screen its leaders. There is no reason not to, and very many good reasons to do so.

All Glory To God said:
And actually Titus 1:6 says a man is to be blameless.

Not in the Greek, it doesn't. It says ei tis; if anyone. The word for "man" is absent from that verse.

trophy33 · Jan 19, 2022

Archivist said:
I go with the plain meaning of the words. Yes, it can be used as evidence.

The meaning is always determined by the context. And the context is salvation, not the church hierarchy.

Archivist · Jan 19, 2022

myst33 said:
The meaning is always determined by the context. And the context is salvation, not the church hierarchy.

And you are entitled to your interpretation.

pescador · Jan 19, 2022

Strong in Him said:
There is no "criteria" in Scripture.
Like I said, the "demanding list" that you have cited says nothing about faith, being born again, Spirit filled, able to accept Christ's deity etc etc. That is far more important in a Minister than gender.

He's not contradicting himself because he has not forbidden it in Scripture.
It's your understanding and interpretation that I'm challenging - not the Holy Spirit or Scripture. God may call whomever he pleases.

And you haven't for one minute considered that because God doesn't contradict himself and there are female Ministers and preachers, it's your understanding that is wrong?

But evidence of what God IS doing today can certainly challenge someone's interpretation of a Scripture.

In Jesus' day, many people were waiting for the Messiah to come. When he did come, many didn't recognise him.
Why not? Because they read the Scriptures a certain way and had pre-conceived ideas about what the Messiah would be like. Yes, Scripture is very important and God will not contradict his word. But there were many times in Scripture that God moved in new ways - first he "lived" in a tabernacle, now he can live in human hearts. Once, anyone who looked at God would die; in Jesus, people looked at, and touched, God, 1 John 1:1-2. Once, the Holy Spirit was only given for a time, and mainly for a special ministry; now he has been poured out on all believers. God even said on one occasion "forget the things of the past, I am doing a new thing, Isaiah 43:18-19.

And there is no Scripture which says, "women must never ever be ordained and preach in/lead my church."

Because they are his children; born again believers who are serving him and earnestly seek to do his will.
Unless you think that they are lying about that as well.

If this is what was happening, it would be a mystery how they could deceive so many men.
And aren't the men wise, or spiritual, enough to recognise heresy?

So how do you explain the fact that many Christians are being blessed, comforted, challenged and non Christians converted due to the "sin" of these women?

And as he is calling women to be ordained, clearly he cannot have commanded that they should not be.
That is the way that you understand/interpret certain verses of Scripture - it doesn't follow that that is what the author was saying, or intended.

No.
If someone says they believe that God is calling them to be ordained, that call should be submitted and properly tested.

I don't know what church you go to or what your experience of this is, but in the UK Methodist church this is a long process.
First, the person MUST have trained as a local preacher - that, itself, could take 5 years. Then they would need to talk to their own Minister, Superintendent and District Candidates secretary about their sense of call to ordination. They will be given a mentor and have to work on a portfolio - of a few thousand words - explaining their call, understanding of ministry and evidence of theological understanding. They will be interviewed by at least two committees, if they haven't pulled out by that point - 3, if they pass and get to the final selection. All this is before they even get to college.
If they survive college and everyone involved believes that they are still called, they will be allocated to a church/couple of churches for no less than 2 years as a probationer Minister. If, after that time, they, their congregations and mentors are still happy, THEN they will be ordained.
As well as 7 years or so of interviews, testing, discussion, questioning etc, this whole process is, obviously, rooted in and surrounded by prayer.

There are countless opportunities for God and anybody else to say, "you are being called, but not to this Ministry" - and yet hundreds are ordained.

Of course there is no such process in Scripture. It is extremely cumbersome! What an ordeal!!

Archivist · Jan 19, 2022

Paidiske said:
This is a very American perspective. Where I am, there is nothing about tax exemptions etc. But I would never trust any church or group which refused to screen its leaders. There is no reason not to, and very many good reasons to do so.

It isn’t a matter of tax status in America. It is a matter of state law. I judge high school speech tournaments, but I need to be screened to do that under Pennsylvania law.

Paidiske · Jan 19, 2022

I am always astonished by people who think that what is true of salvation - such as that it is available to everyone - think that doesn't overflow into all the consequences of salvation, such as full participation in the life and ministry of the church.

LoveofTruth · Jan 19, 2022

3 Resurrections said:
Neither did Christ intend for MEN to exercise authority "OVER" other men, when it came to the ministry. Christ Jesus had nothing but disgust for those who valued exercising authority over others, just like the Gentiles did. "It shall not be so among you", He said.

1 Peter 5:3 also repeated that the elders which were among them were to be above all "examples to the flock", NOT "Lords over God's heritage".

The way some write on this subject, it sounds as if the people were supposed to be the pastor's heritage - not God's.

I also don’t believe men should exercise authority OVER others as Jesus warned about this. My understanding of authority is very different from some in here and from many who act as lords over the flock.authority is only in the word of God snd our life in Christ as we live and speak the word.

I said that about no woman should exercise authority over others because that is exactly what we see today. In fact in most churches the so called pastor exercises a wrong authority over others.

so you might have misunderstood me .

Paidiske · Jan 19, 2022

LoveofTruth said:
I also don’t believe men should exercise authority OVER others ...

Do you not think that is what you try to do, when you try to correct others without allowing them to discern and authorise your role? You decide that is your role, you decide that others should listen to and obey you, and you are accusatory of them when they don't... how is that different from an expectation of exercising authority over others?

Strong in Him · Jan 19, 2022

All Glory To God said:
I just feel that this is dishonest. Paul writes out a long list of things and ''faith'' isn't included so a person thinks it is void and open for evaluation.

No.
You said "well God gives us a pretty demanding list to be a Pastor" - your exact words, see post #844.
I replied that this is not a definitive list - important things like faith aren't even mentioned.

I also said that you can't pick and choose things. If someone is going to be prevented from being a Pastor because you believe that list of qualities says they HAVE to be a man; fine. That list also says they HAVE to be married, have children, be able to teach, be able to handle money, not be quarrelsome etc. So I would expect to see argumentative, single/infertile men being refused ordination - according to that Scripture.

It is inconsistent to focus on one small detail, which you may have misunderstood anyway, and ignore everything else.

All Glory To God said:
See, this I why I said it was sinful. People endeavoring to defy Gods will is very sinful.

a) Forbidding women to be ordained is not God's will - if it was, he wouldn't call them to this ministry.
b) calling born again, Spirit filled Christian sisters, "sinners" and "deceived" might well be sinful.
c) Preventing them from being ordained, or planting so many doubts in their minds that they don't follow God's leading, might well be sinful.
d) stating that a Scripture means what YOU believe it to mean and saying that anyone who doesn't agree is a sinner, is also sinful - as is the claim that it is your job to call sinners out on their behaviour. In fact, that IS deluded; that's the Spirit's job. If you are seriously concerned that women are sinning by being ordained, share your concerns - the pray that God will convict them, show them the truth, lead them to repent and so on. You are not the Lord, you did not write Scripture and you do not have the authority of the Apostles.

All Glory To God said:
Time to dream some other excuse up.

I am not dreaming up any excuse.
I have asked a number of questions, and made a number of points, about your interpretation of these verses - you can't, or won't, answer.
I am not going to accept this is what God is saying just because you say that it is. I disagree. I know many lovely, devout, sincere women Ministers - the very ones whom you are dismissing as "deceived" without knowing a thing about them.

Strong in Him · Jan 19, 2022

pescador said:
Of course there is no such process in Scripture. It is extremely cumbersome! What an ordeal!!

Yeah, I agree with that. But it's the process that the Methodist church has chosen to verify a call to ordination.

And there is a massive shortage of Methodist Ministers - but that's their problem.

trophy33 · Jan 19, 2022

Archivist said:
And you are entitled to your interpretation.

The context is not about the church hierarchy. Its a fact, not interpretation.

If the verse about "no male, no female" would stand alone, we could differ about what it means, having no context. But we have the context. The whole chapter.

To interpret it out of its context is technically possible, but obviously an eisegesis.

All Glory To God · Jan 19, 2022

Archivist said:
1Timothy 3:12 tells us that “a deacon must be faithful to his wife.” Yet Paul tells us that Phoebe was a deacon. Is that a contradiction?

She is not a deacon. You are elevating people to offices which cannot be held by them.

All Glory To God · Jan 19, 2022

Archivist said:
Non-Christians. I certainly don’t think that sex should serve as a basis for deciding who gets ordained.

So as long as a person professed to have faith in Christ, you would not object to them being a pastor? Is that correct?

pescador · Jan 19, 2022

Strong in Him said:
Yeah, I agree with that. But it's the process that the Methodist church has chosen to verify a call to ordination.

And there is a massive shortage of Methodist Ministers - but that's their problem.

I wonder why!

All Glory To God · Jan 19, 2022

Paidiske said:
. . .

Not in the Greek, it doesn't. It says ei tis; if anyone. The word for "man" is absent from that verse.

I am not a Greek speaker and go by what the English translation says to be consistent. Unless you can prove to me you are a Greek speaking person, with expert ability I will reject your claim as I do with any other ''back to the Greek'' individuals.

You make this claim, I want to see if you have the credentials.

pescador · Jan 19, 2022

Archivist said:
1Timothy 3:12 tells us that “a deacon must be faithful to his wife.” Yet Paul tells us that Phoebe was a deacon. Is that a contradiction?

No. It means that a male deacon must not be unfaithful. Of course, a female deacon shouldn't be unfaithful either. Adultery is a sin regardless of who the perpetrator is.

trophy33 · Jan 19, 2022

Archivist said:
And you are entitled to your interpretation.

VERSE 28.There is neither Jew norGreek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for yeare all one in Christ Jesus.

The list might be extended indefinitely:There is neither preacher nor hearer, neither teacher nor scholar, neithermaster nor servant, etc. In the matter of salvation, rank, learning,righteousness, influence count for nothing...

Martin Luther's commentary on Gal 3
Galatians 3 Commentary - Martin Luther's Bible Commentary

- Luther obviously also recognized the context is about salvation.

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