Whose Resurrection Doctrine should we believe?

Timtofly

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Isaiah 65:17-25 is about the new heavens and new earth and so is Revelation 21.

My interpretation takes "the first resurrection" to be what other scripture refers to as the first resurrection. So, I'm interpreting scripture with scripture. You are interpreting Revelation 20 in isolation from other scripture instead of allowing other scripture to interpret it for you. That's your problem that you share with all Premils.
You just said Isaiah 65 would contradict Revelation 21. Now you change your interpretation so it can fit?

I just said you have isolated Revelation 20 to one single interpretation. Your alledged claim about me is a false accusation. There are more Scriptures explaining this first resurrection, than using just Revelation 20 to imply a second resurrection, where none is stated. I do not even have to change or add words to Revelation 20.
 
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Timtofly

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I don't know. I was just answering your question. You asked "What other book would be sealed up other than the Lamb's book of life?". The book of Daniel was sealed up, right? So, that is an answer to your question. Whether the seals of the book of Revelation are directly related to unsealing the book of Daniel, I'm not sure. Maybe.
Revelation 5 and 6 gives us the details.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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You just said Isaiah 65 would contradict Revelation 21. Now you change your interpretation so it can fit?
You have absolutely horrible reading comprehension. Are you even trying? No, I'm saying that your interpretation of Isaiah 65:17-25 contradicts Revelation 21.

I don't believe they contradict each other at all because I don't take Isaiah 65:20 literally to be speaking of people dying, but rather it was Isaiah's way of describing eternity in a way that his readers back then could understand. John, however, is very straightforward in Revelation 21 and makes it very clear that there will be no more death (Rev 21:4) when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in.

I just said you have isolated Revelation 20 to one single interpretation. Your alledged claim about me is a false accusation. There are more Scriptures explaining this first resurrection, than using just Revelation 20 to imply a second resurrection, where none is stated. I do not even have to change or add words to Revelation 20.
Then show me the scriptures. It's always just your words and no scripture to back them up.

It seems to me that you interpret Revelation 20 the way you do because of your assumption that what is described there follows what is described in Revelation 19 chronologically. What else is your interpretation of Revelation 20 based on? What other scripture describes a first resurrection in the way you understand it?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Revelation 5 and 6 gives us the details.
What does that mean? You say it's the book of life that is being unsealed, right? So, the book of life has 7 seals? Where is your evidence for that?
 
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Timtofly

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Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
That day would be the Second Coming when the 6th Seal is opened.

Christ is going to remove all unrighteousness and human works. Just not the same as the GWT, which is after heaven and earth no longer exist.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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That day would be the Second Coming when the 6th Seal is opened.

Christ is going to remove all unrighteousness and human works. Just not the same as the GWT, which is after heaven and earth no longer exist.
There is no basis whatsoever for what you're saying. Scripture teaches that there is one event when all people will be judged and that will occur when Christ returns at the end of the age, just as is portrayed in passages like John 5:28-29, Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46.
 
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Timtofly

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No, Revelation 20:4 is not referring to a judgment day where people are being judged. It is not until after the thousand years that people stand before the throne to be judged, as recorded in Revelation 20:11-15.
Those beheaded were being judged. Judgment was given to those sitting on those thrones. The sentence was handed down that they would live and reign with Christ for 1000 years. Not a symbolic ruling, but a literal judgment was determined. They would also avoid the second death, meaning they would not stand again in judgment at the GWT.

They fulfilled the part about dying once physically and then standing before thrones to be judged. They no longer faced any judgment period.
 
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Timtofly

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You have absolutely horrible reading comprehension. Are you even trying? No, I'm saying that your interpretation of Isaiah 65:17-25 contradicts Revelation 21.

I don't believe they contradict each other at all because I don't take Isaiah 65:20 literally to be speaking of people dying, but rather it was Isaiah's way of describing eternity in a way that his readers back then could understand. John, however, is very straightforward in Revelation 21 and makes it very clear that there will be no more death (Rev 21:4) when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in.
Then stop accusing me of contradiction.

It describes the 1000 year reign of Christ perfectly. You can force it to fit Revelation 21 all you like. You claim it is about Revelation 21. I claim it is about Revelation 20. I agree with you that "sinner" is not describing either chapter. Yet you force sin into Revelation 20 dealing with the 1000 year reign, relentlessly. All I do is claim you are wrong.
 
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DavidPT

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Verse 12 isn't really relevant to the GWTJ. It's a case of the writer realizing that he didn't say anything about the fate of the first 3 beasts and he knew his readers would probably be wondering about that, so he put that parenthetical statement in there. Do you have some kind of problem with the idea of parenthetical verses or passages being in scripture? It's not as if that's the only place in scripture where there is a parenthetical statement. Revelation 20:5 is another example.

Yes, and I think that is because he is more objective than you.

So, you think there will be 2 different judgments when the books are opened then? How does that make any sense? Why would that happen? One judgment isn't enough? Scripture does not teach multiple judgment days, David. Until you recognize and accept that, you're just not going to get it.

Most interpreters at least take Daniel 7:9-11 to be involving what some of Revelation 19 is involving. If the rest of these beasts are simply past history when the little horn is cast into the LOF, why do we even need to know that in this context, as to what happened to them thousands of years earlier? That is out of context big time. Instead, shouldn't we see them being given to the burning flame as well if we are at the end of everything here, thus at the time of the GWTJ? We don't even see satan being given to the burning flame in Daniel 7:9-11, nor do we even see humans being given to the burning flame.

It seems obvious to me the reasons we don't. Not all of these events happen during the same judgment. The judgment of satan happens in a later judgment involving being cast into the LOF, and that the same for humans, a different judgment at a different time than that of the little horn.

We're not supposed to read into the texts something not said in the text.

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

There is no reason to assume the rest of the beasts are also given to the burning flame at the time since the text makes zero mention of that. If Daniel 7:9-11 is meaning after the thousand years the text would have then said, concerning verse 12, the rest of the beasts were also given to the burning flame. It wouldn't instead be telling us what it does, that when the little horn was given to the flame, the rest of the beasts, instead of being given to the burning flame as well, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Speaking of having their dominion taken away, someone has to fulfill the following, and I'm not seeing why the rest of the beasts can't be meant here.

Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away----And the kingdom and dominion--shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High---and all dominions(which includes the rest of the beasts) shall serve and obey him(being ruled with a rod of iron).

Unless one can prove Daniel 7:9-11 has already been fulfilled, this means the fulfilling of verse 12 is yet to be fulfilled as well. I disagree that verse 12 is parenthetical in that context since there is no rhyme nor reason for that no matter how you look at it.
 
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Timtofly

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What does that mean? You say it's the book of life that is being unsealed, right? So, the book of life has 7 seals? Where is your evidence for that?
The Lamb's book of life is the Atonement Covenant. It was physically enacted on the Cross in 30AD. It was in God's perspective, even before creation. Only the Lamb was worthy to finally open up this book, and unsealed the Seals. 7 events are said to happen at each Seal being opened. The wrath of the Lamb would be upon those left on earth at the Second Coming.

Revelation 13:8

"whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

It was both the Lamb slain and the book itself in existence before creation. Before sin even happened all were found in the Lamb's book of life. Not until after the 7th Seal, was it even mentioned that names were removed. Some theology claims that their names were never in the book of life, and that is how they interpret this verse. The verse is saying the book and the Lamb slain was before creation. All were equally redeemed and sealed. Only by choice not to accept this Atonement, are names removed.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Then stop accusing me of contradiction.
Why would I do that? You believe that Isaiah 65:17-25 indicates that death will occur on the new earth, do you not? If so, that contradicts Revelation 21:1-4.

It describes the 1000 year reign of Christ perfectly. You can force it to fit Revelation 21 all you like. You claim it is about Revelation 21.
Both Isaiah 65:17-25 and Revelation 21:1-4 reference the new heavens and new earth. Why would I not believe they are talking about the same thing?
 
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DavidPT

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So, you think there will be 2 different judgments when the books are opened then? How does that make any sense? Why would that happen? One judgment isn't enough? Scripture does not teach multiple judgment days, David. Until you recognize and accept that, you're just not going to get it.


Like I pointed out, unless one can prove otherwise, Daniel 7:22 is involving Daniel 7:9-11 and that Daniel 7:22 is involving Revelation 20:4, and that Revelation 20:4 isn't involving the GWTJ.
 
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Timtofly

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There is no basis whatsoever for what you're saying. Scripture teaches that there is one event when all people will be judged and that will occur when Christ returns at the end of the age, just as is portrayed in passages like John 5:28-29, Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46.
Exactly! These verses are proving my point, that Christ comes with the angels, and it is during the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. It is an unfolding of judgment, it is not a moment of time. It may take weeks, months, or years, although the time will be cut short. It will not be a full 3.5 years.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Most interpreters at least take Daniel 7:9-11 to be involving what some of Revelation 19 is involving.
I do, too.

If the rest of these beasts are simply past history when the little horn is cast into the LOF, why do we even need to know that in this context, as to what happened to them thousands of years earlier?
Why not? He hadn't mentioned what ended up happening to them, so he mentioned it in verse 12. What is the problem with that? Why do you not want to allow scripture to contain any parenthetical verses?

That is out of context big time.
Who are you to tell Daniel in what order he should have described the events he wrote about? Is all of scripture written in chronological order? You know it's not. So, why do you get so bent out of shape over the idea of Daniel 7 not all being in chronological order?

Instead, shouldn't we see them being given to the burning flame as well if we are at the end of everything here, thus at the time of the GWTJ? We don't even see satan being given to the burning flame in Daniel 7:9-11, nor do we even see humans being given to the burning flame.
Do all passages in scripture that speak of the judgment contain all the same details? Of course not. Just like not all passages that speak of the second coming of Christ contain all the same details related to it. So, your argument here is weak, at best.

It seems obvious to me the reasons we don't. Not all of these events happen during the same judgment. The judgment of satan happens in a later judgment involving being cast into the LOF, and that the same for humans, a different judgment at a different time than that of the little horn.
Show me where scripture teaches that there is more than one future judgment day. Good luck. I can show plenty of scripture that shows one judgment day. When else will people be judged except for the day that God has appointed to judge everyone?

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

We're not supposed to read into the texts something not said in the text.
Come on. Get serious. With that kind of approach we couldn't conclude that 1 Thess 4:14-17 is speaking of the same event as Matthew 24:29-31 since 1 Thess 4:14-17 doesn't say anything about the angels gathering the elect or about what it describes happening after the tribulation because we would be reading that into the text. And we couldn't conclude that either of those passages are the same event as Revelation 19:11-21 because neither of them describe Jesus killing His enemies.

Also, you couldn't relate Revelation 20:4-6 to a passage like 1 Thess 4:14-17 since Revelation 20 doesn't say anything about anyone being caught up to meet the Lord in the air and only seems to specifically mention some of the dead in Christ instead of all of them like 1 Thess 4 does.

Is that really the kind of approach you want to take to interpreting scripture? With that approach how can you relate any two passages together unless they contain all of the same details?

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

There is no reason to assume the rest of the beasts are also given to the burning flame at the time since the text makes zero mention of that.
I agree that there's no reason to assume that. Especially since they were successive beast kingdoms and weren't all in power at the same time.

If Daniel 7:9-11 is meaning after the thousand years the text would have then said, concerning verse 12, the rest of the beasts were also given to the burning flame.
That would be the case only if verse 12 related directly to verses 9-11, but it doesn't. Why you can't see that, I have no idea. You accept that other prophecies are not always described chronologically, right? So, why can't you accept that here?

Unless one can prove Daniel 7:9-11 has already been fulfilled, this means the fulfilling of verse 12 is yet to be fulfilled as well. I disagree that verse 12 is parenthetical in that context since there is no rhyme nor reason for that no matter how you look at it.
That's how you have chosen to interpret it and your mind is made up. So be it. It looks like there's nothing else to discuss about that then. Just have to agree to disagree.

Like I pointed out, unless one can prove otherwise, Daniel 7:22 is involving Daniel 7:9-11 and that Daniel 7:22 is involving Revelation 20:4, and that Revelation 20:4 isn't involving the GWTJ.
I believe I have proven otherwise, but you're not convinced. Oh well. I won't lose any sleep over it.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Exactly! These verses are proving my point, that Christ comes with the angels, and it is during the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. It is an unfolding of judgment, it is not a moment of time. It may take weeks, months, or years, although the time will be cut short. It will not be a full 3.5 years.
What about Revelation 20:11-15? Did you somehow forget about that? My point is that scripture does not teach two completely separate judgment events, so what I said definitely does not prove your point which is that you believe there are two completely separate judgment events separated by 1000+ years.
 
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keras

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I don't take Isaiah 65:20 literally to be speaking of people dying, but rather it was Isaiah's way of describing eternity in a way that his readers back then could understand. John, however, is very straightforward in Revelation 21 and makes it very clear that there will be no more death (Rev 21:4) when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in.
But Isaiah 65:20 clearly speaks of people dying.
Isaiah 65:17 does refer to the NH, NE, but then Isaiah goes on to detail the Millennium period.
Remember that; Prophecy is a little here, a little there.
 
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Timtofly

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Why would I do that? You believe that Isaiah 65:17-25 indicates that death will occur on the new earth, do you not? If so, that contradicts Revelation 21:1-4.
No. I accept Death is the last enemy to be destroyed. Even Satan is cast into the LOF prior to the end. Paul says:

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

There is a new earth and heaven after the Second Coming. Those living during the 1000 years are not living in utter desolation. Daniel 9:24 has been fulfilled and all the promises are enjoyed for 1000 years. Just as Isaiah 65 states.


Both Isaiah 65:17-25 and Revelation 21:1-4 reference the new heavens and new earth. Why would I not believe they are talking about the same thing?
Because one fulfills Daniel 9:24.

The other is the end of current reality, and a totally different creation and reality altogether.
 
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keras

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What about Revelation 20:11-15? Did you somehow forget about that? My point is that scripture does not teach two completely separate judgment events, so what I said definitely does not prove your point which is that you believe there are two completely separate judgment events separated by 1000+ years.
When Jesus Returns, He will reward His faithful peoples and separate the nations. Matthew 25:31-33
That's a Judgment and there have been many others before.
But the final Judgment of everyone who has ever lived, will be the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium. Rev 20:1-15
 
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Spiritual Jew

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But Isaiah 65:20 clearly speaks of people dying.
Isaiah 65:17 does refer to the NH, NE, but then Isaiah goes on to detail the Millennium period.
Remember that; Prophecy is a little here, a little there.
You've said this before several times and I don't buy it now any more than I have before. Isaiah did not mention the new heavens and new earth in one verse and then completely change the topic in the next verse. That makes no sense. You're not recognizing that Isaiah wrote about the eternal new heavens and new earth in a way that could be understood back then. People didn't have any concept of eternity back then in OT times like we do now.
 
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No. I accept Death is the last enemy to be destroyed. Even Satan is cast into the LOF prior to the end. Paul says:

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

There is a new earth and heaven after the Second Coming. Those living during the 1000 years are not living in utter desolation. Daniel 9:24 has been fulfilled and all the promises are enjoyed for 1000 years. Just as Isaiah 65 states.



Because one fulfills Daniel 9:24.

The other is the end of current reality, and a totally different creation and reality altogether.
You believe in two future new heavens and two future new earths then. Which is ridiculous.
 
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