What Israel is Acts 1:6 meaning and how does that get fulfilled?

Spiritual Jew · Jan 19, 2022

Christian Gedge said:
The disciples asked a specific question and Jesus gave an equally specific answer. "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." Now you are telling me they got their answer after a mere 50 days?

Yep, that's what I'm telling you. Why is that an issue?

Do you think the disciples fully understood the nature of the kingdom of God yet at that point when they asked the question? I don't. How about after they were filled with the Holy Spirit? I think their understanding of the kingdom of God greatly increased after that and they realized it's not an earthly kingdom based in Israel, but rather is a global spiritual kingdom that does not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of this world (John 18:36).

I agree wholeheartedly with the Amillennial teaching concerning the true nature of the kingdom of God. But I would remind you that many Amillennial teachers expect a latter day restoration of the Jews.

I'm aware of that, but I'm not one of them, so I'm not sure how that is relevant to me personally.

Charles Hodge concerning Romans 9 says, “Israel, here, from the context, must mean the Jewish people, and all Israel, the whole nation. The Jews, as a people, are now rejected; as a people, they are to be restored.”

I disagree because of how Romans 9:6-8 describes who qualifies as being part of the Israel (spiritual Israel of God) that not all of the nation of Israel are part of. The qualifications are being a child of God and child of the promise and it has nothing to do with one's nationality or ethnicity. In Galatians 3:26-29, Paul makes it very clear that all Christians, whether Jew or Gentile, are children of God and children of the promise. So, all Christians, Jew and Gentile, are part of the Israel of God.

Paul also taught that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile and that there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ. It seems that your doctrine contradicts that because you see God as having a different plan for the Jews than He has for everyone else.

So, my position is with Dr. Hodge. I hope that you are generous enough to notice that I am not espousing dispensational futurism.

It seems to me that you're espousing something very similar to that.

I am simply saying that God has placed ethnic Israel in their original homeland because it sets the stage for a Messiah revival. I pray for them. Do you?

I pray for everyone, including them. Do you? Is God a respecter of persons? Why would He only care about a revival in Israel and not in other nations?

I noticed that you didn't answer my questions from post #10.

Have the Israelites not all had an opportunity to accept Jesus for the past almost 2,000 years?

When a verse like 2 Peter 3:9 says that the Lord desires for all people to repent, does that not include Israelite people?

When a verse like 1 Timothy 2:4 says that God desires for all people to be saved, does that not include all Israelite people?

It seems that you think God has purposely withheld salvation from ethnic Israelites for the past almost 2,000 years. Is that true? If so, what is that based on?

DavidPT · Jan 19, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
Yep, that's what I'm telling you. Why is that an issue?

I find that preposterous myself and always have since I'm already well aware of this argument. One is to believe times and seasons can come and go in a mere 50 days? 50 days is not even two months. Seasons don't come and go within 50 days. Even if seasons is not being meant in that sense, still seasons don't come and go within a mere 50 days. The text says seasons not season. Thus what I find preposterous about this.

DavidPT · Jan 19, 2022

Marilyn C said:
Hi David,

Interesting discussion. Now Jesus told the 12 disciples that it was not for them to know the times and seasons...` (Acts 1: 7) however when the Lord Jesus ascended and sent His Holy Spirit He said to His Body of believers -

`But concerning the times and seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you for you yourselves KNOW PERFECTLY that the Day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night....

But, you, brethren are NOT IN DARKNESS, so that this Day should overtake you a a thief.` (1 Thess. 5: 1 - 3)

The Day of the Lord, (judgment of nations) was written about in the OT however the catching away of the Body of Christ (& prior to that Day) was not known and was revealed by the Holy Spirit to the Apostle Paul for the Body of Christ.

You are making the right connections IMO, but I do disagree it implies a Pretrib rapture. But not to get into that debate since I'm not interested in debating that in here. Plenty of other threads for that particular debate.

Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Maybe it's just me, but this part---which the Father hath put in his own power---reminds me of something Jesus said in the Discourse.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Where this then connects back with the passage you submitted from 1 Thessalonians 5.

grafted branch · Jan 19, 2022

grafted branch said:
Ok, thanks for that answer.

Do you know what his view was on Acts 10:34 God is no respecter of persons?

FYI I can’t find anything on the internet about how Charles Hodges interpreted Acts 10:34. He was a Calvinist and here is part of Calvin’s commentary on Acts 10:34.

For, when as he did choose the Jews to be his people, passing over the Gentiles, did he not respect persons? I answer, that the cause of this difference ought not to be sought in the persons of men, but it doth wholly depend upon the hidden counsel of God. For, in that he rather adopted Abraham, that with him he might make his covenant, than the Egyptians, he did not this being moved with any external respect, but (all) the whole cause remained in his wonderful counsel. Therefore, God was never tied to persons.

Notwithstanding, the doubt is not as yet dissolved, because it cannot be denied but that circumcision did please God, so that he counted him one of his people who had that token of sanctification. But we may easily answer this also that circumcision followed after the grace of God, forasmuch as it was a seal thereof. Whereupon it followeth that it was no cause thereof. Nevertheless, it was unto the Jews a pledge of free adoption; in such sort, that uncircumcision did not hinder God, but that he might admit what Gentiles he would unto the society of the same salvation. But the coming of Christ had this new and especial thing, that after that the wall of separation was pulled down, (Ephesians 2:14,) God did embrace the whole world generally. And this do the words in every nation import. For so long as Abraham's seed was the holy inheritance of God, the Gentiles might seem to be quite banished from his kingdom; but when Christ was given to be a light of the Gentiles, the covenant of eternal life began to be common to all alike.

Spiritual Jew · Jan 19, 2022

DavidPT said:
I find that preposterous myself and always have since I'm already well aware of this argument. One is to believe times and seasons can come and go in a mere 50 days? 50 days is not even two months. Seasons don't come and go within 50 days. Even if seasons is not being meant in that sense, still seasons don't come and go within a mere 50 days. The text says seasons not season. Thus what I find preposterous about this.

He was using figurative language to get the point across that it wasn't for them to know the exact time when it would happen. That's all. There's no reason to read more into it than that. He was not implying that it wouldn't happen until some times and seasons passed first.

What I find preposterous is for anyone to not recognize that Jesus answered their question in Acts 1:8. He wasn't interested in telling them exactly when it would happen, but He indicated how they would recognize the coming of the kingdom of God in power. And He made it clear that it would not just be an earthly kingdom based in Israel as they likely imagined, but would be a spiritual kingdom that spread throughout the world.

Christian Gedge · Jan 19, 2022

Christian Gedge said:
I hope that you are generous enough to notice that I am not espousing dispensational futurism.

Spiritual Jew said:
It seems to me that you're espousing something very similar to that.

Here is my diagram showing 'the times of Jacob', then the Gentiles grafted in, then a continuous growth, then a final revival remnant of Jewish believers grafted after the 'times of the Gentiles.' As can be seen, it is different to the extremes of both dispensationalism and preterism.

DavidPT · Jan 19, 2022

Christian Gedge said:
Here is my diagram showing 'the times of Jacob', then the Gentiles grafted in, then a continuous growth, then a final revival remnant of Jewish believers grafted after the 'times of the Gentiles.' As can be seen, it is different to the extremes of both dispensationalism and preterism.

View attachment 311249

My browser won't let me resize that image, assuming it's resizable. Some of it I can't make out what the text is saying, and I'm using a 32" monitor. Mainly meaning the texts that are slanted. Everything else I can make out what the text is saying.

Spiritual Jew · Jan 19, 2022

Christian Gedge said:
Here is my diagram showing 'the times of Jacob', then the Gentiles grafted in, then a continuous growth, then a final revival remnant of Jewish believers grafted after the 'times of the Gentiles.' As can be seen, it is different to the extremes of both dispensationalism and preterism.

I honestly don't really understand what I'm looking at when I look at your diagram, but I will take your word for it that your view is different than theirs.

I'd still like to know what your answers are to my questions, though. I don't see it taught anywhere in scripture that there will be a revival in Israel just before the return of Christ. What scriptures do you base that belief on? I assume Romans 11? Anything else?

Christian Gedge · Jan 19, 2022

DavidPT said:
My browser won't let me resize that image, assuming it's resizable. Some of it I can't make out what the text is saying, and I'm using a 32" monitor. Mainly meaning the texts that are slanted. Everything else I can make out what the text is saying.

Here it is again in svg format. BTW, what browser are you using?

View attachment israel-of-god.svg

Christian Gedge · Jan 19, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
I'd still like to know what your answers are to my questions, though. I don't see it taught anywhere in scripture that there will be a revival in Israel just before the return of Christ. What scriptures do you base that belief on? I assume Romans 11? Anything else?

Could you go to this page of my website. Scroll to the bottom where you will find a pdf link. Click that and find chapter 15. The scriptures are in the margin.

DavidPT · Jan 19, 2022

Christian Gedge said:
Here it is again in svg format. BTW, what browser are you using?

View attachment 311256

Thanks. That image appears a bit bigger. I can now make out all of the text. For example, the slanted text to the top right I can now see that is says believing grafted back. I couldn't make out what it was saying in the initial image that you posted.

I have 3 browsers installed. Firefox, Chrome, and SeaMonkey. When I'm on this board I typically use SeaMonkey and that I have Scripting turned off in that browser. The other 2 browsers I keep Scripting turned on, but I prefer to use this site with Scripting turned off. No distractions from ads or anything else for that matter when Scripting is turned off. Apparently, some functions might not work correctly or even at all when Scripting is turned off.

jgr · Jan 19, 2022

Christian Gedge said:
Could you go to this page of my website. Scroll to the bottom where you will find a pdf link. Click that and find chapter 15. The scriptures are in the margin.

Why would you think that the Holy Spirit who inspired Paul would change the definition of "all Israel", from the believing remnant within the nation in Romans 9:6, to the entire nation in Romans 11:26?

It is clear from Paul's anguish at the beginning of Romans 9, and his subsequent quote from Isaiah in Romans 9:27, that he recognizes that only the believing remnant will be saved.

Please respond to post #15.

Spiritual Jew · Jan 19, 2022

Christian Gedge said:
Could you go to this page of my website. Scroll to the bottom where you will find a pdf link. Click that and find chapter 15. The scriptures are in the margin.

I can't find an answer there to my question regarding how your view lines up with scripture like 2 Peter 3:9 which indicates that God wants all people to repent. Do you believe that God hasn't wanted all Israelites to repent for the past almost 2,000 years?

On your website you quoted Romans 11:25-27.

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a
partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from
Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with
them when I take away their sins.

And then you said this:

Please notice how this is treated as a future event, not as something which has already
happened, and the phrase ‘until the fullness of the Gentiles’ appears again. What it means is
that the time of hardening was not permanent. A time would come, after a long Gentile era,
when widespread national revival would occur in the Jewish nation. So, God has gathered
them back in this our time, not merely to achieve the political aims they think they have been
gathered for, but pending the fulfilment of an unfinished promise. It means coming face to
face with Messiah again! It means being grafted into the ‘olive tree’ again, this time on the
basis of faith in Jesus the anointed one, crucified, and risen from the dead!

You say how that is treated as a future event, but it seems like you're not recognizing that Paul was not making a new prophecy there, but rather was quoting an Old Testament prophecy from Isaiah 59:20-21.

We should understand from Romans 9:6-8 that the Israel of which all are saved is not the nation of Israel, but rather the Israel of God. So, the way in which all of the Israel of God has been saved, is being saved and will continue to be saved is by way of the new covenant which is the covenant that is being referenced in Romans 11:25-27. I'm sure you're aware that the new covenant was established by the blood of Christ long ago already. That's a very important thing to keep in mind when interpreting Romans 11.

When it says "all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob" we should understand that the Deliverer already came long ago to turn away ungodliness from Jacob! Just as the following passage indicates:

Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

How can anyone think that Romans 11:25-27 is talking about a future event (rather than an ongoing event that started almost 2,000 years ago) when a passage like Acts 3:25-26 indicates that the Deliverer already came long ago to fulfill the convenant that takes away the sins of Israelites and turns them away from ungodliness? Did Jesus fail in what He was sent to do for Israel (and the world)? No! God forbid. It is an insult to what Christ has already accomplished to think otherwise. He did everything He had to do already. If people choose to reject Him that is not a reflection of what Christ accomplished, it's a reflection on them only.

To think that the Isaiah 59:20-21 prophecy (the one Paul references in Romans 11:26-27) can't be fulfilled unless every Israelite believes in Christ is simply not at all what the prophecy is about. I suppose if you're a Calvinist you might be able to believe in such a thing, but it's not realistic to think that everyone in the nation of Israel (or even most) will one day put their faith in Christ. Especially when you consider that just a short time before writing Romans 11:25-27 Paul wrote that he hoped SOME of them would be saved in verse 14. So, he went from hoping some of them would be saved to saying all of them would be saved? No, that clearly does not make any sense.

And it's also not biblical to think that salvation has been withheld from the Israelites for the past almost 2,000 years since God wants all people to repent and to be saved (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 Tim 2:3-6, 1 John 2:1-2, etc.), including all Israelites.

Timtofly · Jan 20, 2022

klutedavid said:
Are they talking about an earthly kingdom or a heavenly kingdom?

Israel was always an earthly Kingdom, never a heavenly one. The church was from above, not of the earth. Sometimes Israel existed as part of the heavenly church, and sometimes in open rebellion to the kingdom from above.

Timtofly · Jan 20, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
I disagree. Just because He did not specifically tell them that their understanding of the kingdom of God was in error, doesn't mean that it wasn't. He corrected their understanding of the kingdom by what He said in verse 8. The kingdom would spread throughout the world, including Israel. They clearly did not understand that at that time which is why they asked what they did. He knew that they would understand the nature of the kingdom of God fully once the Holy Spirit came to dwell in them on the day of Pentecost, so He felt no need to criticize their understanding at the time and instead declared that the kingdom would not just be in Israel, but would expand throughout the world.

The church is not an earthly kingdom that spread across the world as a nation. That is a "being of the earth" kingdom.

He said the church would spread not a kingdom. He would have had to tell them it would be in a few thousand years if He had answered their question properly. That is why He told them not to worry about the time.

People still reject Israel being a proper nation in God's sight. It will not be until the Second Coming. And yes that is the question they asked about national earthly Israel. Obviously it was on a lot of the minds in Israel, as civil unrest happened for another 40 years. The Holy Spirit would work through the church, not an earthly government. The church as a nation is nationally known as Paradise, and cannot be observed. We are only Ambassadors and aliens on earth among the governments of mankind.

They already knew about Paradise more so than we do 2000 years later after the corrupt dogma of a church that touted to be an earthly kingdom with too much observation, and a whole lot of political corruption.

Timtofly · Jan 20, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
I can't find an answer there to my question regarding how your view lines up with scripture like 2 Peter 3:9 which indicates that God wants all people to repent. Do you believe that God hasn't wanted all Israelites to repent for the past almost 2,000 years?

On your website you quoted Romans 11:25-27.

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a
partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from
Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with
them when I take away their sins.

And then you said this:

You say how that is treated as a future event, but it seems like you're not recognizing that Paul was not making a new prophecy there, but rather was quoting an Old Testament prophecy from Isaiah 59:20-21.

We should understand from Romans 9:6-8 that the Israel of which all are saved is not the nation of Israel, but rather the Israel of God. So, the way in which all of the Israel of God has been saved, is being saved and will continue to be saved is by way of the new covenant which is the covenant that is being referenced in Romans 11:25-27. I'm sure you're aware that the new covenant was established by the blood of Christ long ago already. That's a very important thing to keep in mind when interpreting Romans 11.

When it says "all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob" we should understand that the Deliverer already came long ago to turn away ungodliness from Jacob! Just as the following passage indicates:

Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

How can anyone think that Romans 11:25-27 is talking about a future event (rather than an ongoing event that started almost 2,000 years ago) when a passage like Acts 3:25-26 indicates that the Deliverer already came long ago to fulfill the convenant that takes away the sins of Israelites and turns them away from ungodliness? Did Jesus fail in what He was sent to do for Israel (and the world)? No! God forbid. It is an insult to what Christ has already accomplished to think otherwise. He did everything He had to do already. If people choose to reject Him that is not a reflection of what Christ accomplished, it's a reflection on them only.

To think that the Isaiah 59:20-21 prophecy (the one Paul references in Romans 11:26-27) can't be fulfilled unless every Israelite believes in Christ is simply not at all what the prophecy is about. I suppose if you're a Calvinist you might be able to believe in such a thing, but it's not realistic to think that everyone in the nation of Israel (or even most) will one day put their faith in Christ. Especially when you consider that just a short time before writing Romans 11:25-27 Paul wrote that he hoped SOME of them would be saved in verse 14. So, he went from hoping some of them would be saved to saying all of them would be saved? No, that clearly does not make any sense.

And it's also not biblical to think that salvation has been withheld from the Israelites for the past almost 2,000 years since God wants all people to repent and to be saved (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 Tim 2:3-6, 1 John 2:1-2, etc.), including all Israelites.

If you accept all Israel will not be saved, why do you not see Israel as both sheep and goats in Matthew 25? This is definitely not the church, but it fits the status of earthly Israel as some will be sheep and others will remain goats cast out of the kingdom, for eternity. The sheep are the remnant.

Zao is life · Jan 20, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
I assume you're referring to Romans 11 here. Why are you acting as if the entire nation was cut off? That is not the case. Paul said that a remnant was saved (Romans 11:5) and that he hoped that some more would be saved (Romans 11:14). If you read Romans 11 carefully, you should see that the plan was for the unbelieving Israelites to be cut off because of their unbelief and then for the believing Gentiles to be grafted in and to make the unbelieving Israelites jealous so that they would want to be grafted back in.

How does this verse support your claim?

I agree.

If only people would understand that the citizens of Israel, wherever they were congregated together (whether in Jerusalem, or in the temple, or in Judea, or in the synagogues in the dispersion) were what in our day we call "the church". The citizens who rejected Christ were "excommunicated from the church" (i.e broken off from Israel), and as many Gentiles who became saved through faith in Christ, were added.

The nation that was born from Abraham is the nation of those who believed God. It was never about genetic ancestry:

Romans 9:6-9, 11
"Not however that the word of God has failed, for not all those (genetically descended) of Israel are (part of) Israel;
nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they all children. But, "In Isaac shall your Seed be called." That is, not the children of the flesh are children of God; but the children of the promise are counted for a seed.
For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son."

11 (for the children had not yet been born, neither had done any good or evil; but that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who called,)

God's first promise to Abraham was that he would become the father of many goy (Gentiles). The way Abraham inherited the promise was to believe God, and this faith in the Word of God was credited to him FOR righteousness (Abraham was not called righteous because of his works).

In order for God to accomplish this, Abraham was to become the genetic ancestor of the nation through whom the promised seed would come (Galatians 3:16).

Therefore being part of Israel was never based on the fact of anyone's genetic descent from Abraham, but on whether or not like Abraham, they believed in God and believed the Word of God.

Hence it is written,

"not all those (genetically descended) of Israel are (part of) Israel; nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they all children."

The remnant of the elect nation who did believe did not disappear. No "new" elect nation (of Israel) was brought into being. Gentiles who believe have been added to it, and this was actually nothing new, Gentiles who came to faith in the God of Abraham had been added all along.

The difference since Christ is that God's New Covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah has replaced the Old Covenant, and as it was with God's Old Covenant with the nation (when the Old Covenant was still in place), this New Covenant is the only covenant God has with mankind, whether Jew or Gentile.

The Old Covenant was made with the genetic sons of Abraham who were circumcised, and any Gentile who became added to the nation through faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, after these Gentiles had also been circumcised.

Now the New Covenant has come, Christ is a new creation, and baptism into His death and being raised with Him is all that matters:

Galatians 6
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Spiritual Jew · Jan 20, 2022

Timtofly said:
The church is not an earthly kingdom that spread across the world as a nation.

I didn't say that it was. Congratulations on missing the point yet again.

He said the church would spread not a kingdom. He would have had to tell them it would be in a few thousand years if He had answered their question properly. That is why He told them not to worry about the time.

The church is part of His kingdom. Is He not your King right now? He's mine. He's not a King without a kingdom. We're all in His kingdom and His church.

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Do you deny what the above passage teaches? We have all been delivered from the power of darkness and have been spiritually translated into Christ's kingdom. He is our King and we are in His kingdom. This is an elementary fundamental Christian truth that all Christians should understand.

Jesus taught that the kingdom of God/heaven, which is His kingdom, would start out small and then keep growing.

Matthew 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: 32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof. 33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Spiritual Jew · Jan 20, 2022

Timtofly said:
If you accept all Israel will not be saved, why do you not see Israel as both sheep and goats in Matthew 25?

What are you talking about? I have made it clear to you several times that I see Matthew 25:31-46 is a judgment of all people (not just Israel), saved and lost. So, why are you asking me this question?

This is definitely not the church, but it fits the status of earthly Israel as some will be sheep and others will remain goats cast out of the kingdom, for eternity. The sheep are the remnant.

What is your basis for this belief? You always just say things without offering any scriptural support for what you're saying. Your opinions alone without scriptural support behind them mean nothing. The sheep represent the church. That's why it indicates that they inherit eternal life (Matt 25:46) in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world (Matt 25:34). Who else but the church will inherit eternal life in an eternal kingdom?

What Israel is Acts 1:6 meaning and how does that get fulfilled?

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