Whose Resurrection Doctrine should we believe?

Zao is life

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"And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof."

What other book would be sealed up other than the Lamb's book of life?
No. The Apocalypse written in the scroll has noting to do with the Lamb's Book of Life. "The Book of Life" contains the names of all those who are in the Ark of our salvation, namely Jesus. We don't know all the names in the book, but God does.
 
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parousia70

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The church no longer had to remain in death, but was afforded the physical resurrection into Paradise, that had been banned to Adam's flesh and blood.
And this happened at the cross?
Or at the ascension?
AD70?
Some other time?
And what does “afforded” mean in this context?

and which scripture proves it?
You so far haven’t cited any.
 
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parousia70

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DavidPT

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It is a choice, no matter who actually swings the blade, or drops the guillotine. If that is their choice, they are indeed having their head chopped off.


Technically you are correct. Being martyred is for sure a choice in most cases. If one doesn't want to be martyred, simply worship the beast instead, that also being a choice.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Actually that makes a lot of sense. It's another one of the hundreds if not thousands of examples of "Markan Sandwiches" I've seen in scripture, I just never noticed that this is also one of them. I read it that way after reading your reply, and it makes total sense.

Thank you :)
Yeah, it's sometimes hard for us (including myself here) to recognize when things are not written in chronological order because we all have a tendency to read things that way and assume that is how things were written. But scripture is not the same as a news article that reports on something that happened in chronological order from beginning to end. Scripture is not always literal and not always written in a straightforward, chronological way. So, we need to always keep that in mind. That's why we need spiritual discernment to understand it (1 Cor 2:9-16).
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Your opinion.

No righteous die in the 1,000 year reign. The ones who die are the rebellious children. Isaiah 65.
You base that belief on Isaiah 65? Maybe you should actually read Isaiah 65 more carefully then.

Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

If this is meant to be taken literally (even though that contradicts Revelation 21:4) then where does this say that the child who dies at 100 is a rebellious child? It doesn't. It says "the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed", but that is not talking about the child who dies at 100. It's contrasting the sinner with the child.

Scripture does not declare their "second" resurrection, because a first resurrection happened and then they ruled and reigned. They will immediately go from the old earth to the NE. Just like those in Paradise will then be in the New Jerusalem.
A "first resurrection" implies a second. In 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 Paul indicated that Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection (see Acts 26:23, Col 1:18 and Rev 1:5 as well) and next in order is the mass bodily resurrection of those who are in Christ at His second coming. So, the mass resurrection at His second coming is actually the second resurrection rather than the first.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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"And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof."

What other book would be sealed up other than the Lamb's book of life?
The book of Daniel.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
 
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Timtofly

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Is there scripture that says there is?

I’m aware of scripture testifying to a bodily resurrection.

What scripture do you believe testifies to a physical resurrection?

Paul says this:
“It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.”
Paul was being symbolic. What is literal about that phrase? Paul also said that to be absent from this tent (corruption) is to be present in a building (permanent incorruption). That is Paul pointing out the soul does not taste death, neither does the flesh, then.

You think the body has to be sown in the ground, and thousands of years later resurrected. That is not literally what Paul said. The soul is not bound to the body. Paul was just explaining Adam's flesh was buried. The soul now has God's permanent incorruptible physical body. No waiting necessary. We are not literal plants that have to wait. We are souls that instantly change bodies.
 
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Timtofly

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No. The Apocalypse written in the scroll has noting to do with the Lamb's Book of Life. "The Book of Life" contains the names of all those who are in the Ark of our salvation, namely Jesus. We don't know all the names in the book, but God does.
So two different books with 7 Seals?
 
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DavidPT

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I see that verse as being a parenthetical verse that describes the fate of the first three of the four successive beast kingdoms or world empires. Seeing the beast as a kingdom or world empire can be supported by looking at Daniel 7:23 which says "The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces". Daniel 7:12 is even placed in parentheses in the NIV and I think a few other translations. I believe that verse is basically saying "by the way, here's what had happened to the first three beast kingdoms before the fourth beast kingdom came into power".


Let's assume the time of the GWTJ is meant in those verses. That would mean we are at the end of everything. Why would what happened to these first 3 beasts, assuming it is meaning what you are taking it to mean, be relevant to context involving the GWTJ?

You even have Fullness of the Gentiles seeing this making sense and him seeing it as maybe a markan sandwhich. The thing is, the GWTJ is not meant here because what is meant here is meaning Daniel 7:22 and that Daniel 7:22 is meaning Revelation 20:4, and Revelation 20:4 is not meaning the GWTJ. Daniel 7:9-12 is involving what Revelation 19 is involving. which then leads to the time that the saints possess the kingdom, which is what they begin to do in the beginning of the thousand years. The thousand years and satan's little season following the events of Revelation 19 then explains Daniel 7:12.
 
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Timtofly

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And this happened at the cross?
Or at the ascension?
AD70?
Some other time?
And what does “afforded” mean in this context?

and which scripture proves it?
You so far haven’t cited any.
I did. You claim it does not apply. You have applied the same Scripture to your own theology. Not much more can be said.

Jesus explained throughout John's gospel what the Atonement would do. If you claim it did not do what John and Paul wrote about it, then we are stuck at interpretation.

Jesus was the Resurrection and Life prior to the Cross, because He was still 100% God. In God's perspective the Cross happened before creation. So being dogmatic on historical dates, and then basing the ability to confirm dates will never work from God's perspective. It is Adam's flesh and blood who is cursed with the task of being bound to history, and what happens when.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Let's assume the time of the GWTJ is meant in those verses. That would mean we are at the end of everything. Why would what happened to these first 3 beasts, assuming it is meaning what you are taking it to mean, be relevant to context involving the GWTJ?
Verse 12 isn't really relevant to the GWTJ. It's a case of the writer realizing that he didn't say anything about the fate of the first 3 beasts and he knew his readers would probably be wondering about that, so he put that parenthetical statement in there. Do you have some kind of problem with the idea of parenthetical verses or passages being in scripture? It's not as if that's the only place in scripture where there is a parenthetical statement. Revelation 20:5 is another example.

You even have Fullness of the Gentiles seeing this making sense and him seeing it as maybe a markan sandwhich.
Yes, and I think that is because he is more objective than you.

The thing is, the GWTJ is not meant here because what is meant here is meaning Daniel 7:22 and that Daniel 7:22 is meaning Revelation 20:4, and Revelation 20:4 is not meaning the GWTJ. Daniel 7:9-12 is involving what Revelation 19 is involving. which then leads to the time that the saints possess the kingdom, which is what they begin to do in the beginning of the thousand years. The thousand years and satan's little season following the events of Revelation 19 then explains Daniel 7:12.
So, you think there will be 2 different judgments when the books are opened then? How does that make any sense? Why would that happen? One judgment isn't enough? Scripture does not teach multiple judgment days, David. Until you recognize and accept that, you're just not going to get it.
 
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Timtofly

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Technically you are correct. Being martyred is for sure a choice in most cases. If one doesn't want to be martyred, simply worship the beast instead, that also being a choice.
Normally martyrs are killed by humans with false doctrines, because they have broken the dogmatic teachings of said false doctrines.

In the case of Revelation 13-20, it is the choice between faith in God, and rebellion against God, not human theology. It is God removing names from the Lamb's book of life, not humans. God is doing so based on individual human choices.

We then get into the point of pre-determination. Which has never been the point. If it had all been pre-determined, why get to the point souls need to be beheaded to have eternal life? Most avoid the issue, by claiming it was all resolved in the first century. To them, this cannot be our future.
 
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Timtofly

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You base that belief on Isaiah 65? Maybe you should actually read Isaiah 65 more carefully then.

Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

If this is meant to be taken literally (even though that contradicts Revelation 21:4) then where does this say that the child who dies at 100 is a rebellious child? It doesn't. It says "the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed", but that is not talking about the child who dies at 100. It's contrasting the sinner with the child.
Isaiah 65 is not about Revelation 21. That is why it is future, and the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Isaiah 65 is contrasting life with rebellion.
"Spare the rod, spoil the child".
A "first resurrection" implies a second. In 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 Paul indicated that Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection (see Acts 26:23, Col 1:18 and Rev 1:5 as well) and next in order is the mass bodily resurrection of those who are in Christ at His second coming. So, the mass resurrection at His second coming is actually the second resurrection rather than the first.
That is one view of what "first" can describe. My interpretation would include all views, not just narrow it down to one, and stake a dogmatic claim.
 
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Timtofly

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The book of Daniel.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
It has 7 Seals?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Isaiah 65 is not about Revelation 21. That is why it is future, and the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Isaiah 65 is contrasting life with rebellion.
"Spare the rod, spoil the child".
Isaiah 65:17-25 is about the new heavens and new earth and so is Revelation 21.

That is one view of what "first" can describe. My interpretation would include all views, not just narrow it down to one, and stake a dogmatic claim.
My interpretation takes "the first resurrection" to be what other scripture refers to as the first resurrection. So, I'm interpreting scripture with scripture. You are interpreting Revelation 20 in isolation from other scripture instead of allowing other scripture to interpret it for you. That's your problem that you share with all Premils.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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It has 7 Seals?
I don't know. I was just answering your question. You asked "What other book would be sealed up other than the Lamb's book of life?". The book of Daniel was sealed up, right? So, that is an answer to your question. Whether the seals of the book of Revelation are directly related to unsealing the book of Daniel, I'm not sure. Maybe.
 
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Timtofly

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Verse 12 isn't really relevant to the GWTJ. It's a case of the writer realizing that he didn't say anything about the fate of the first 3 beasts and he knew his readers would probably be wondering about that, so he put that parenthetical statement in there. Do you have some kind of problem with the idea of parenthetical verses or passages being in scripture? It's not as if that's the only place in scripture where there is a parenthetical statement. Revelation 20:5 is another example.

Yes, and I think that is because he is more objective than you.

So, you think there will be 2 different judgments when the books are opened then? How does that make any sense? Why would that happen? One judgment isn't enough? Scripture does not teach multiple judgment days, David. Until you recognize and accept that, you're just not going to get it.
The Flood of Noah was not a judgment day? Sodom and Gomorrah was not a judgment day? The thrones in Revelation 20:4 was not a judgment day? Even the day Adam disobeyed was a judgment day. The GWT is not even in time or creation. It is outside of creation. That is the only fact that sets it apart. It is after the "last day" though.
 
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The Flood of Noah was not a judgment day? Sodom and Gomorrah was not a judgment day?
No, not in the sense that I'm talking about. I'm talking in terms of the books being opened and people standing before the throne to be judged. God has set one day in the future when that will happen.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

All people being judged at the same time can be seen in passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46.

The thrones in Revelation 20:4 was not a judgment day?
No, Revelation 20:4 is not referring to a judgment day where people are being judged. It is not until after the thousand years that people stand before the throne to be judged, as recorded in Revelation 20:11-15.
 
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