God a glorified dictator?

If ‘we’ are correct?

VCR-2000 said:

I always agreed intellectually that there is a God and that his son came to the earth in flesh and returned to Heaven after.

But I can't also help but think that God in a lot of ways is like an autocratic dictator or does actions and has characteristics similar to what we would call as an archetypical "authority" on Earth. I believe the Bible states directly that God is the superior authority in many of its books, and it also states directly that those who happen to reject his ways will suffer in eternal damnation even if they were otherwise "good" people. That means there is no room for negotiation, it reminds me of the situation where the mob boss says that your friend will be shot if you choose to disobey the mob dealer's command.

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I would say rather that dictators are crappy people who try to emulate the authority of God without his wisdom, his compassion, his honor, his nobility, and his might. Take a small child who pretends to be someone of ultimate importance without any real knowledge of what it takes to get the job done, they just built it all up on a fraction of a fact that they learned about him with 99.9% of the rest of it being their imagination. Kings and dictators are the moral version of that.

And yet, even kings, dictators, and mobsters know how to take care of people who serve them faithfully. The best of them do so for longer than the worst of them. If God were no better than one of these people, I'd still want do what it takes to be on his good side. If what you're positing is true, I can be the butt, or the boot. I'd rather be the boot. If Christianity is true, then reality is much, much better than the scenario you are presenting.

VCR-2000 said:

Lastly, the Bible frequently talks about God being the literal end of pleasure in itself - it just makes it look like everyone who gets to be in Heaven with him will be in a full catonic state and they will only be worshiping God for how great he is.

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Where in Scripture do you read that?

VCR-2000 said:

On the surface of things, this would definitely make God look like the ultimate narcicist who only does whatever plan he does for mankind to worship him and admire how great he is.

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Narcissists are driven by need. God is self-sufficient. Likewise, narcissists aren't truly humble - but Jesus lived and demonstrated humility.

If the interpretation of eternal singing to God in Heaven is true, that's all I'd ever want to do when I see him - so if I'm being sustained for eternity doing all I'd ever want to do, I don't see it as a bad thing. But, since God is the ultimate creative mind, I personally don't think I'll be limited like that. I will be changed, and I will have a desire to be with him which will be fulfilled, but I'll have an itinerary set by the most creative, and most loving being there is, with no more mourning, crying, or pain. Whatever that is, I want it.

VCR-2000 said:

He also wants his creation below him to be equally mediocre. Nobody would be better at anything or more good looking in a certain quality than one other, even if the person wasn't aiming to replace God.

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Where do you read that in Scripture?

When God created man, He created him in His image and likeness. That includes personality. Of course, God is righteous, so His anger is righteous, His jealousy is righteous. He is a good father who loves His children and disciplines them when they get out of line. You expect us to live a consequence-free life and anything but that signals an angry, dictator God? God knows what sin does to us. It's just like if your kid was reaching to touch a hot stove. Some parents would just say no the first time, but if he does it again and again, a little spank will hurt much less than burning your hand.

My old pastor once preached a sermon where he said if we really wanted to live in a utopia, we would follow God's laws. God isn't a cosmic killjoy who wants to make your life dull and miserable. He knows what sin does to us. You might not think anything of saving yourself until marriage, but how much misery is brought about on the world because of premarital sex? Millions have died because of STDs, millions more from abortions, and one can argue even poverty for a lot of people today who would be much better off if they had waited until they were married. That's just one thing. Think of all the bad things people do and how many of God's laws are broken.

Why wouldn't a good God destroy the world that was nothing but evil continuously? Why wouldn't He take down evil nations? There's times He ordered the killing of every man, woman, and child. Evil right? But consider the evil those people were doing by sacrificing their own children for pagan rituals. Really evil stuff.

But God is justice and He is mercy. When they turn from their wicked ways, He forgives and restores them. When they continue their evil, He gives warnings, sends prophets, etc. Many times, they kill the prophets and end up destroyed.

VCR-2000 said:

But I can't also help but think that God in a lot of ways is like an autocratic dictator or does actions and has characteristics similar to what we would call as an archetypical "authority" on Earth. I believe the Bible states directly that God is the superior authority in many of its books, and it also states directly that those who happen to reject his ways will suffer in eternal damnation even if they were otherwise "good" people. That means there is no room for negotiation, it reminds me of the situation where the mob boss says that your friend will be shot if you choose to disobey the mob dealer's command. Free will is a whole other can of worms.

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But hopefully you know better than to think God is like a mob boss. No mob boss would have his son die for the sins of ones in the mob, right?

God is better than how any human dictator can be. And it is His destiny that He is so superior and better and stronger and the Ruler of all. He simply is good and supreme.

And God is worthy to be our Ruler. Plus, our Father pleases to rule us in His own peace in our hearts > Colossians 3:15. Mob bosses do not rule by means of peace, right? But there are ones who do not obey how our Father rules His children in such perfect and beneficial peace. And they do not rule themselves well . . . certainly not in peace almighty which guards a person against bitterness and confusion and unforgiveness and dominating and dictatorial drives for pleasures which do not give them genuine love.

But God alone is able to bring us to genuine loving, while worldly lusts make people intimate with their feelings of pleasure and bad reacting to not getting it; lusts do not have people in tender and personal sharing and caring as family. But worldly stuff gets people isolated with depending on their own selves and trying to use pleasure to make their deep unhappiness go away > and such is cruel dictatorship > enough is never enough.

But with God in His peace we have satisfaction with personal sharing with God and others who live in this loving peace.

So, I would not compare God with the stupidity of how we humans can be our own dictators and dictators over others in order to just use them!!

And God's judgment is one of the most important benefits of being a child of God. Because God's judgment gets rid of wrong and nasty stuff which is degrading and hurting. But there are humans who keep holding on to such evil stuff so they go where it is going.

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

So, God in His good judging condemns such evil and anti-love things, including unforgiveness; and so He is committed to getting all that Satanic stuff away from us, and it will go to the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone. So, it is wise to now trust God through Jesus to change us out of all of that wrong stuff, and make us gentle and kind and peaceful in sharing with Him.

And care about the ones who continue to hold on to wrong stuff, and have hope for them, also, be rescued and adopted.

VCR-2000 said:

I always agreed intellectually that there is a God and that his son came to the earth in flesh and returned to Heaven after.

But I can't also help but think that God in a lot of ways is like an autocratic dictator or does actions and has characteristics similar to what we would call as an archetypical "authority" on Earth. I believe the Bible states directly that God is the superior authority in many of its books, and it also states directly that those who happen to reject his ways will suffer in eternal damnation even if they were otherwise "good" people. That means there is no room for negotiation, it reminds me of the situation where the mob boss says that your friend will be shot if you choose to disobey the mob dealer's command. Free will is a whole other can of worms.

Lastly, the Bible frequently talks about God being the literal end of pleasure in itself - it just makes it look like everyone who gets to be in Heaven with him will be in a full catonic state and they will only be worshiping God for how great he is. On the surface of things, this would definitely make God look like the ultimate narcicist who only does whatever plan he does for mankind to worship him and admire how great he is. He also wants his creation below him to be equally mediocre. Nobody would be better at anything or more good looking in a certain quality than one other, even if the person wasn't aiming to replace God.

The late Christopher Hitchens made an interesting comparison of God's eternal kingdom and a "celestial North Korea" and in some ways it does in fact remind me of that, if we are indeed correct about our understanding of the Biblical description of it.

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A teen aged son who wants to have all the freedom in the world to do what seems fun to him is going to find his father is a dictator who requires him to follow the rules and do what is in his best long term existence. Our Father wants what is best for us in our entire lifetime. As we mature we begin to understand why our father held us to be accountable. As we mature in faith we appreciate why God has given us guidance. When we are truly mature in faith we are ready to live with God.

VCR-2000 said:

it also states directly that those who happen to reject his ways will suffer in eternal damnation even if they were otherwise "good" people.

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Can you please show how someone who rejects God and his moral laws can be classified as Good?

Being good starts with worshipping God, so someone who does not worship God, no matter how much they live a ' moral ' lifestyle is not good.

Tolworth John said:

Can you please show how someone who rejects God and his moral laws can be classified as Good?

Being good starts with worshipping God, so someone who does not worship God, no matter how much they live a ' moral ' lifestyle is not good.

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I do not think you can support that. There are good people in other beliefs and good people who have never be exposed to the Bible.

disciple Clint said:

I do not think you can support that. There are good people in other beliefs and good people who have never be exposed to the Bible.

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It all depends on what ones sta Dard of good is.

If God sets the standard then that is what one follows.

You and everyone else is projecting very human notions in very human language onto an anthropomorphic God and Heaven of your own imagination. We have no real understanding of who God is, what it's like to be God, what Heaven is like, or what eternity with God will be like. We have - or hope we have - God's limited revelation to humans in human terms and human language. We can only hope and trust. If God is in fact the celestial equivalent of a North Korean dictator or the Evil Genius of Descartes' thought experiment, that will be the God that we and Christopher Hitchens are stuck with. These forums always end up being nothing more than thread after thread of "How I think it all works, and why the way you think it works is wrong" and "Here's what I would've done if I'd been God." It's 99.9% mental masturbation.

If God were as autocratic as you suggest, he would not have given us the free will to rebel against him.

VCR-2000 said:

But I can't also help but think that God in a lot of ways is like an autocratic dictator or does actions and has characteristics similar to what we would call as an archetypical "authority" on Earth. I believe the Bible states directly that God is the superior authority in many of its books, and it also states directly that those who happen to reject his ways will suffer in eternal damnation even if they were otherwise "good" people. That means there is no room for negotiation, it reminds me of the situation where the mob boss says that your friend will be shot if you choose to disobey the mob dealer's command. Free will is a whole other can of worms.

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You are not the only one who thinks of God as autocratic and a dictator, but I don't think the majority of Christians would agree with you on it.

The reality is that if what you say is true, then you can't help but think the way you do because God is making you do it. Which then also leads to the idea that God is making some people 'reject his ways' and therefore 'suffer in eternal damnation' which I think is abominable.

However God as portrayed in the early OT is desirous of a Theocracy, but it is clear that he sets up various leaders (Prophets, Judges) to be his mouthpiece and declare his desires... which the people are free to reject if they want and suffer the consequences (the period of the Judges shows them doing just that on a regular basis).

Later on a Monarchy is established with the monarch meant to be the prime mouthpiece of God, but since they were human, Prophets continued to fulfil their original function.

I think if you read through the history of the Old Testament it is very difficult to come to the conclusion that you do about God being an 'autocratic dictator' as I think neither term is applicable. Rather God sends out commands that he expects to be followed and they clearly aren't a lot of the time.

Even your analogy of the mob enforcer makes little sense - I don't see God threatening other people if I don't act according to his will. At best you can say he is threatening me for my failure, but actually if you think 'threaten' you will read the scriptures and see such things whereas others might see the same thing as a warning of consequences.

Free will is not another can of worms, but the flip side of what you have already been discussing regarding God's authority. To treat it separately is to invite confusion and lead you on a wild goose chase.

VCR-2000 said:

Lastly, the Bible frequently talks about God being the literal end of pleasure in itself - it just makes it look like everyone who gets to be in Heaven with him will be in a full catonic state and they will only be worshiping God for how great he is.

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Where does this get frequently talked about in the Bible. I must have missed it or at least misread it.

VCR-2000 said:

I always agreed intellectually that there is a God and that his son came to the earth in flesh and returned to Heaven after.

But I can't also help but think that God in a lot of ways is like an autocratic dictator or does actions and has characteristics similar to what we would call as an archetypical "authority" on Earth.

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You are totally wrong. God is the highest good, the source of every good, of all true love and true goodness. Those who reject God, reject the true good, and Hell is the state of the soul who has definetely rejected God. It is God who arouses love and good feelings in us and those who definitely reject God are totally unable to love; this is the spiritual death in Hell.

mmarco said:

those who definitely reject God are totally unable to love

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Hmmm, I'm not sure that is Biblical. All humans are made in the image of God and are capable of Love. If they weren't they weren't 'made' very well.

Silly Uncle Wayne said:

Hmmm, I'm not sure that is Biblical. All humans are made in the image of God and are capable of Love. If they weren't they weren't 'made' very well.

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John 15:5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

We can cooperate with God's grace and through God's grace, we can love, but apart from God, we cannot love.

mmarco said:

John 15:5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

We can cooperate with God's grace and through God's grace, we can love, but apart from God, we cannot love.

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Interesting verses, but none of them mention the word 'love' at all. Even in their context neither seems to imply a lack of love on the part of the one who has left God.

Silly Uncle Wayne said:

Interesting verses, but none of them mention the word 'love' at all. Even in their context neither seems to imply a lack of love on the part of the one who has left God.

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Jesus said explicitly that apart from Him we can do nothing, and this obviously implies that we cannot love

VCR-2000 said:

I always agreed intellectually that there is a God and that his son came to the earth in flesh and returned to Heaven after.

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Sounds good so far!

Looks like issues come up related to things the Bible says.

Suppose you took a more liberal view of the scriptures. Being a Christian / believing in Jesus is not the same as believing in the Bible.

What if you just went with the general teachings of Jesus, maybe something like the sermon on the mount?