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LoveGodsWord

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This is a total untruth. I JUST NOW added John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12. So we now know you are not below spreading untruths.



You've shown nothing of the kind.


And you don't know what you are talking about.

Perhaps you have forgotten that I have used John 3:15-18; 36 all through my earlier posts with you in this thread showing that "believe" in the Greek here is present tense application to "believing". Did you forget? 2 Thessalonians also sounding familiar from earlier conversations showing that those who are damned are those who are not "believing". If someone believes not the truth then they are not "believing" now are they but have become unbelievers having pleasure in sin. These are the ones God sends strong delusions according to 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11. If someone has "departed the faith" then they are no longer believers believing but are now unbelievers not believing in unbelief and sin *Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-31 and the wrath of God remains on them because they are not "believing" *John 3:36.

Take Care.
 
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GDL

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If God tells us we show our love through obedience, not my words but the Word of God

Doesn't the Word of God in essence say that Love for God is Obedience to God and thus Obedience to God is Love for God?

IOW it's not just that we show our love through obedience, but it's even more strong & succinct - Love for God is keeping (obeying) His commandments and this not being burdensome.

Since Jesus taught that Loving God is the greatest commandment, then obeying the greatest commandment is to obey God's commandments. Maybe this is why Paul in Romans talks about obeying obedience.
 
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klutedavid

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Eternal life is only granted to those that believe in Jesus Christ.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:18
The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 3:36
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Romans 10:8-9
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

THE WORD is Jesus Christ and that is the WORD they preached.

that is, the word of faith which we are preaching...

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I'm not emotional and I agree scripture does not discount scripture, so I'm not sure it's wise to keep discounting clear scripture.
Oh, stop it. I'm NOT doing that. You're the one who rejects eternal security, which I've proven from Scripture.

I never said obeying the commandments was required for salvation, but as shown through scripture very clearly, God's saints keep the commandments Revelation 14:12, so it is a fruit of our faith, we are saved by grace through our faith, which is established by God's law Romans 3:31. It's a good way to test yourself to see if you are in the faith. Those who are not doers of God's Word only deceive themselves. James 1:22
You have misunderstand quite a lot of Scripture, I see.

If God tells us we show our love through obedience, not my words but the Word of God why would you want to argue with that?
I AM NOT arguing against that.

Why would anyone want to do the very least to get into to heaven if you love Jesus?

John 14:15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.
John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
Exodus 20:6 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
This isn't about 'the very least' to get into heaven.

Scripture is clear that one is saved by trusting what Jesus did for them on the cross. Period.

All the obedience commands are for those who are already saved.

It sounds to be me people who don’t want to keep the commandments has a problem with love.
They may. Doesn't matter. Keeping the commandments has NOTHING to do with getting saved.

And all saved people STAY saved.
 
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Clare73

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Sorry I do not believe you.
Then it falls to you to Biblically demonstrate my Biblical error.

In the absence of such demonstration, your position is without merit.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Perhaps you have forgotten that I have used John 3:15-18; 36 all through my earlier posts with you in this thread showing that "believe" in the Greek here is present tense application to "believing". Did you forget?
No, I didn't forget anything. In fact, I can't forget how much you totally misunderstand and ABUSE the Greek present tense. Which has driven you way off course.

2 Thessalonians also sounding familiar from earlier conversations showing that those who are damned are those who are not "believing".
And, you're not reading that right either. It is clear that condemnation is for those who "have not believed". This has NOTHING to do with the present tense.

This calls for learning about Greek tenses.

In John 3:18, the tense is aorist. That means an event that has already been accomplished. So in this verse, the meaning is "have NEVER believed". It's in the negative, meaning that they NEVER believed.

In 2 Thess 2:12 "have not believed" is the negative of a perfect indicative. According to Wallace's Greek Grammar: Beyond the Basics, a perfect indicative speaks of an event accomplished in the past with results existing into the present.

So again, in this verse, "have not believed" means they NEVER believed.

You just can't get around the tenses. Condemnation is for those who NEVER believed.

And you DON'T have any verses that actually and plainly say that salvation can be lost.

If someone believes not the truth then they are not "believing" now are they but have become unbelievers having pleasure in sin.
WRONG. I just showed you the tenses. They mean "have NEVER believed". You are stuck in the present tense, which isn't even in either of these verses.
 
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klutedavid

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Oh, stop it. I'm NOT doing that. You're the one who rejects eternal security, which I've proven from Scripture.


You have misunderstand quite a lot of Scripture, I see.


I AM NOT arguing against that.


This isn't about 'the very least' to get into heaven.

Scripture is clear that one is saved by trusting what Jesus did for them on the cross. Period.

All the obedience commands are for those who are already saved.


They may. Doesn't matter. Keeping the commandments has NOTHING to do with getting saved.

And all saved people STAY saved.
Absolutely correct.

Romans 10:13
For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Notice it does not say; everyone who obeys the law and calls on the name of Jesus will be saved.

The scripture never says that those who don't sin go to heaven.

After all, the law merely tells you that you are a sinner.
 
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klutedavid

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Doesn't the Word of God in essence say that Love for God is Obedience to God and thus Obedience to God is Love for God?

IOW it's not just that we show our love through obedience, but it's even more strong & succinct - Love for God is keeping (obeying) His commandments and this not being burdensome.

Since Jesus taught that Loving God is the greatest commandment, then obeying the greatest commandment is to obey God's commandments. Maybe this is why Paul in Romans talks about obeying obedience.
That's why the scripture says that God's law was written on our hearts. Not God wrote the law on stone tablets. Now read the law and obey it.

The fruit of the Holy Spirit was poured into our hearts!

God is love and the new commandment is simply, that Christ had an unconditional love for us. So we imitate Him with an unconditional love for others. We do not obey the law, with a love of others based on the way we love ourselves.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Doesn't the Word of God in essence say that Love for God is Obedience to God and thus Obedience to God is Love for God?

IOW it's not just that we show our love through obedience, but it's even more strong & succinct - Love for God is keeping (obeying) His commandments and this not being burdensome.

Since Jesus taught that Loving God is the greatest commandment, then obeying the greatest commandment is to obey God's commandments. Maybe this is why Paul in Romans talks about obeying obedience.
Absolutely! Unfortunately, most people want the blessings, but they don't want God. Loving God is expressed through obedience. There is no harm in keeping God's commandments, it does no harm to our neighbor by not stealing, lying, committing murder, coveting etc. and no harm to God when you only worship God, only bow to God, keep His holy Sabbath day and use His name only in the upmost respect. It really is not burdensome, and we don't want to hear these words when Jesus comes back, which I think will be soon!

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Psalms 40:8 I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart.”:heart:
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Oh, stop it. I'm NOT doing that. You're the one who rejects eternal security, which I've proven from Scripture.


You have misunderstand quite a lot of Scripture, I see.


I AM NOT arguing against that.


This isn't about 'the very least' to get into heaven.

Scripture is clear that one is saved by trusting what Jesus did for them on the cross. Period.

All the obedience commands are for those who are already saved.


They may. Doesn't matter. Keeping the commandments has NOTHING to do with getting saved.

And all saved people STAY saved.
I don't reject eternal security, I know it's on God's terms and not mine. One or two scriptures do not make up the Word of God which is the whole bible. Anyone can make a case on a scripture or two out of context.

I do agree with this statement
All the obedience commands are for those who are already saved.
God saints keep the commandments Revelation 14:12 , so if you find yourself breaking God's law you might want to reevaluate some things before its too late.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Then it falls to you to Biblically demonstrate my Biblical error. In the absence of such demonstration, your position is without merit.

I already did. Your response was to simply ignore what was written to you with no response. As shown from the scriptures, you were disregarding scripture context and subject matter of Hebrews 7 (see post # 631 linked)
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Doesn't the Word of God in essence say that Love for God is Obedience to God and thus Obedience to God is Love for God?

IOW it's not just that we show our love through obedience, but it's even more strong & succinct - Love for God is keeping (obeying) His commandments and this not being burdensome.

Since Jesus taught that Loving God is the greatest commandment, then obeying the greatest commandment is to obey God's commandments. Maybe this is why Paul in Romans talks about obeying obedience.
Welcome GDL great post. Nice to see someone who reads the bible for themselves.

God bless.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Eternal life is only granted to those that believe in Jesus Christ.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:18
The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 3:36
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Romans 10:8-9
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

THE WORD is Jesus Christ and that is the WORD they preached.

that is, the word of faith which we are preaching...

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

No one knows about Jesus except through his Word which is why it is written "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. *Romans 10:17.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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No, I didn't forget anything. In fact, I can't forget how much you totally misunderstand and ABUSE the Greek present tense. Which has driven you way off course.


And, you're not reading that right either. It is clear that condemnation is for those who "have not believed". This has NOTHING to do with the present tense.

This calls for learning about Greek tenses.

In John 3:18, the tense is aorist. That means an event that has already been accomplished. So in this verse, the meaning is "have NEVER believed". It's in the negative, meaning that they NEVER believed.

In 2 Thess 2:12 "have not believed" is the negative of a perfect indicative. According to Wallace's Greek Grammar: Beyond the Basics, a perfect indicative speaks of an event accomplished in the past with results existing into the present.

So again, in this verse, "have not believed" means they NEVER believed.

You just can't get around the tenses. Condemnation is for those who NEVER believed.

And you DON'T have any verses that actually and plainly say that salvation can be lost.


WRONG. I just showed you the tenses. They mean "have NEVER believed". You are stuck in the present tense, which isn't even in either of these verses.

You of course are free to believe as you wish. I believe you have been shown from scripture why your teachings are not biblical. What you believe is between you and God. I do not judge you as shown in John 12:47-48.

Take Care.
 
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Clare73

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I already did. Your response was to simply ignore what was written to you with no response. As shown from the scriptures, you were disregarding scripture context and subject matter of Hebrews 7 (see post # 631 linked)
No Biblical demonstration of the error in my exegesis was presented.

My exegesis was not directly dealt with at all.

In the absence of such, your assertion is without merit.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Absolutely correct.

Romans 10:13
For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Notice it does not say; everyone who obeys the law and calls on the name of Jesus will be saved.

The scripture never says that those who don't sin go to heaven.

After all, the law merely tells you that you are a sinner.

Let's not forget...

Matthew 7:21-23 [21], Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22], Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? [23], And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

Take Care.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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No Biblical demonstration of the error in my exegesis was presented. My exegesis was not directly dealt with at all.
I believe post # 631 linked proves your claim that Hebrew 7 is talking about Gods' 10 commandments is not biblical because you were disregarding the scripture context and subject matter of Hebrews 7 which is about the laws of the Levitical Priesthood, not God's 10 commandments. This was demonstrated from the scriptures shared with you in the linked post by showing the scripture context you left out. Your response was to simply ignore what was written to you and to repeat what I already responded to. So there is not much more to add here. You are free to believe whatever you wish. That is between you and God. I believe the linked post proves you did not provide exegesis and read out of the scriptures what they were not saying. Therefore, you provided eisegesis which is reading into the scriptures what is not said anywhere in the whole chapter or book of Hebrews. If you disagree your welcome to prove that Hebrews 7 is talking about God's 10 commandments. You have not been able to do this however as demonstrated in the linked post. So we will need to agree to disagree on this one. Thanks for sharing your view though.

Take Care.
 
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GDL

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That's why the scripture says that God's law was written on our hearts. Not God wrote the law on stone tablets. Now read the law and obey it.

The fruit of the Holy Spirit was poured into our hearts!

God is love and the new commandment is simply, that Christ had an unconditional love for us. So we imitate Him with an unconditional love for others. We do not obey the law, with a love of others based on the way we love ourselves.

Different dynamics for those in Christ, but the same Law. The same Law that provides the criteria for Love and is summarized in the Lev19 command to love neighbor as self.

The new commandment to love one another as Jesus loved us is in the context of love for fellow Children of God. Jesus loved pursuant to the 2 greatest commandments and dying for us provided the example of how vast His self-sacrificial love is that we are to have for God and one another.
 
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SDA believe that by obeying God ( His ten commandments, including sabbath to be observed and kept in law) that God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey God in that way....




Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.




To obey God is to obey the truth ( truth and grace by Jesus Christ not by Moses John 1:17.

Truth is obeyed through the Spirit (nobody can obey then without the Spirit) and to obey God ( in the law of ten commandments as SDA, Messianic and Judaism) cannot be done without the Spirit....



1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:



That shows why it was foolish and to be bewitched, and is not obeying the truth, ( of Jesus Christ set forth among them recognizing and believing in His resurrection)

The Apostle exhorts them that to receive the Spirit, was not as their assumed works of the law ( SDA think obeying God in 10 commandments is them receiving the Spirit)

Galatians speaks again, to the law keepers ( Judaism Messianists and SDA) how they are debtors to do the whole law, if they do one part of it such as circumcision.

That is because as witnessed, they seek to be justified by law, and is then them not as told, being hindered from obetying the truth..



Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?




Of course Abraham is our example, and it is through faith, that they obey God, as Abraham did, Abraham through faith went where God wanted Him to go.

Again in James, faith is what show works of faith ( it cant then be the works of the law which are not faith as testified fror Israel, Galatians 3:12,, Romans 9:32)...




Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.






Abraham then we are told neither was not sought justification through works, but believing God is the righteousness.


The promise was not through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

They of the law are not heirs ( of the promise by faith) and they ion the law are in wrath, and are in transgression, as the transgression of the law for Israel and those under the law is sin 1 John 3:4.)...





Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.




The law never spoke to the Gentiles, the law only spoke to those under the law.

By the law is the knowledge of sin, as they were under the law of sin (I and death and curse for not continuing)

Now righteousness of God is without the law ( Israel, Messianic and SDA put themselves under)

It is thew righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ, upon all them that believe, as all sinned in the law of sin and death, and that was what the wrath of the law spoke to them and what we are no longer under and are freed from, Romans 8:1-4,, for the righteousness of the law fulfilled in us who believe in the righteousness of God and not seeking it by the works of the law as Israel sought and now seeks wrongly without faith in Gods righteousness...





Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;





Remembering then Romans 8:1-4, what we are freed from ( the law of sin and death that Israel and others are yet following) and assume that to obey the law is them fulfilling the righteousness of the law.

Not quite, as to love our neighbour as ourselves is the law fulfilled.

Bearing one another's burdens is the law fulfilled.

The law made nothing perfect, Hebrews 7:19, but the lively hope did, 1 Peter 1:3 ( following law is imperfection as Jesus told Israel ( Mark 10:18-24)

The love of God is then perfected in us, if we walk as Jesus walked ( laying His life down for His friends)...





Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
 
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