Womens roles in the church

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Is it possible that the lutheran church will change back to men-only leadership if the society in the future will be patriarchal?

Apparently you do not understand that there is no one Lutheran Church. The ELCA, of which I am a member, does. Others such as the Missouri Synod do not. I don’t believe that the ELCA will ever change its position.

Or will it again favor the persecution of witches, if the society in the future will believe in real witches, again?
I would hope that no Christian church would ever favor the persecution of witches again. Remember, persecution of Anabaptists and witches wasn’t just a Lutheran thing.
 
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All Glory To God

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And the matter of female pastors and church leaders is one upon which Christians disagree. I could just as easily say that those who oppose female pastors are stripping out “nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” I wouldn’t say that they aren’t taking the Bible serious. It is a matter upon which Christian’s can and do disagree.

I think you are taking that scripture out of context as it is about salvation. But from your perspective, if you do believe women should be permitted to pastor and there are churchs that prohibit them from doing this, why don't you see this as sin?

I think women who are preaching behind the pulpit are sinning and the people who have enabled this to come about. Why don't you think restraining women from pastoring is a sin if it is Gods will?
 
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I think you are taking that scripture out of context as it is about salvation. But from your perspective, if you do believe women should be permitted to pastor and there are churchs that prohibit them from doing this, why don't you see this as sin?

I think women who are preaching behind the pulpit are sinning and the people who have enabled this to come about. Why don't you think restraining women from pastoring is a sin if it is Gods will?
I already answered this. It is a matter upon which Christians disagree.
 
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No, it isn't.

1. God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong, 1 Corinthians 1:27
Abraham was 100 years old and Sarah 90 when she became pregnant.
Moses was an 80 year old asylum seeker when he led an entire nation out of Egypt.
Saul was the first king - from the smallest tribe of the smallest clan of Benjamin (who had been the youngest son), 1 Samuel 9:21.
David was the youngest in his family, and a shepherd boy - he fought, and defeated, Goliath. Samuel had thought God would choose the oldest, and strongest, of Jesse's sons; he didn't.
Mary was probably a teenage girl when Gabriel told her she would become pregnant.
Jesus was born to a poor, unmarried couple. His earthly father was a carpenter, and they lived in Nazareth.
Some of the disciples were fishermen; one was a hated tax collector.
Christianity started with 12 men who were filled with the Holy Spirit. It was a tiny religion - actually, a Jewish sect - which started in a small country which was one small part of the mighty Roman Empire.
God will choose weaker people over stronger people to do his will - because then he gets the glory. A strong, capable person might be tempted to rely on their own strength/skill/gifts, rather than on God.

2. Women are physically weaker?? Women, who endure 9 months of pregnancy, with all that that involves, give birth - for centuries without epidurals etc - carry small toddlers on their hips while pregnant with a second child, have twins, triplets, quads etc, and then maybe do it all again?
Women who get out of bed feeling like death warmed up because they need to see to/nurse/care for the children, take them to school, clean the house, and expect no help from hubby who is in bed with a cold?
Women who may endure miscarriages/ivf/egg donation and more so they can have a child?
Women who may teach classes of noisy/sickly/contagious/badly behaved children, take charge of a ward full of sick patients, preside in a court of law, walk the beat or attend burglaries or serious crimes, break bad news to heartbroken families - and then go home to cook and clean for their own?
Women who have to work twice as hard, develop thick skins and fight sexism just to be taken as seriously as their male counterparts?
These are the weaker sex?

Well Paul gives a pretty demanding list to be a Pastor, like sober, run his home well, not a novice, good reputation with non-Christians. So I'm seeing something different than you in what it takes to be a Pastor.
 
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All Glory To God

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That's your prerogative.



i. Men and women ARE the church.
ii. How do you define "teaching"? Would you say that telling some frightened, downhearted men that their master, the Lord Jesus, was alive was teaching? Prophecy involves teaching.
iii. Pulpits are optional extras.



You'd need to take it up with the Lord, in any case.

I will just reiterate what I said before. I don't believe women should teach men from behind the pulpit. Because I think that's an office exclusive for men taught in scripture.
 
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Well Paul gives a pretty demanding list to be a Pastor, like sober, run his home well, not a novice, good reputation with non-Christians. So I'm seeing something different than you in what it takes to be a Pastor.
Jesus picked all Jews as his disciples. Does that mean church pastors and leaders should be restricted to Jews? Of course not. Paul also recognized a female apostle and a female deacon. We know that the first person to preach the Good News of the risen Messiah was a woman.
 
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All Glory To God

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I already answered this. It is a matter upon which Christians disagree.


Well you said something about taking the Bible seriously and that's another matter. People can claim to take the Bible seriously but if people are doing things that are against the will of God that is taught in scripture (according to one's interpretation) this is sin right?
 
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I don’t believe that the ELCA will ever change its position.
Was ELCA always for women in leadership or was it a change in its position?

Edit: according to wiki: The ELCA was officially formed on January 1, 1988
So, its naturally an organization of its time.

I would hope that no Christian church would ever favor the persecution of witches again. Remember, persecution of Anabaptists and witches wasn’t just a Lutheran thing.
I am trying to find the source for the Lutheran change - was it in theology, in the bible or in the beliefs of the society?
 
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All Glory To God

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Jesus picked all Jews as his disciples. Does that mean church pastors and leaders should be restricted to Jews? Of course not. Paul also recognized a female apostle and a female deacon. We know that the first person to preach the Good News of the risen Messiah was a woman.


Why are you having such a hard time telling me I am sinning for wanting to ban women from preaching if you believe they should be able to preach and it's Gods will? Or saying church leaders are sinning for banning women from preaching in churchs?

Do you actually believe in the concept of Biblical sin?
 
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Well you said something about taking the Bible seriously and that's another matter. People can claim to take the Bible seriously but if people are doing things that are against the will of God that is taught in scripture (according to one's interpretation) this is sin right?
But people are entitled to their interpretation. How are they sinning if they are consistent with their interpretation? Of course, we are all in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves, but we are washed clean in the Blood of the Lamb.
 
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bekkilyn

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What did John Wesley thought about the issue, then?

Once John Wesley began to ordain Methodist ministers, he ordained two women, Sarah Mallet, a Methodist preacher who Wesley advised, and Sarah Crosby, an itinerant preacher.

"On this principle he answered a certain person who said to him, 'Mr. Wesley, how is it, that you encourage certain females in preaching?' 'Because (said he) God owns them in the conversion of sinners, and who am I that I should withstand God.'” (Zechariah Taft: Preface to Eminent and Holy Women)
 
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Was ELCA always for women in leadership or was it a change in its position?

Edit: according to wiki: The ELCA was officially formed on January 1, 1988
So, its naturally an organization of its time.

It was something the ELCA inherited from predecessor bodies.

I am trying to find the source for the Lutheran change - was it in theology, in the bible or in the beliefs of the society?
I know that the LCA ordained it first female pastor in 1970.
 
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bekkilyn

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It's strange the claim that preventing and restraining people from proclaiming the gospel is what God wants and supported by scripture, but then maybe I'm not reading the authentic KJV that was rained down to Moses and the Israelites along with the manna and the quail. I really need to get ahold of a copy!
 
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trophy33

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I know that the LCA ordained it first female pastor in 1970.
It makes sense, regarding the cultural changes in the USA:

Second-wave feminism in the United States began in the early 1960s. Throughout most of the 60's and ending in 1970, second wave feminism commonly followed the motto, "the personal is political." In 1963 Betty Friedan, influenced by The Second Sex, wrote the bestselling book The Feminine Mystique in which she explicitly objected to the mainstream media image of women, stating that placing women at home limited their possibilities, and wasted talent and potential.
The perfect nuclear family image depicted and strongly marketed at the time, she wrote, did not reflect happiness and was rather degrading for women. This book is widely credited with having begun second-wave feminism in the United States
Feminism in the United States - Wikipedia
 
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Is this information correct, then?
"Wesleyan theology asserts the primary authority of Scripture..."
Wesleyan theology - Wikipedia

Wesleyans recognize scripture, tradition, reason, and experience as being authoritative, with scripture being primary.

(Please do note though that "scripture" is not necessarily defined as "scripture seen and interpreted through the special lens of myst33. It's an important distinction!)
 
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It makes sense, regarding the cultural changes in the USA:

Second-wave feminism in the United States began in the early 1960s. Throughout most of the 60's and ending in 1970, second wave feminism commonly followed the motto, "the personal is political." In 1963 Betty Friedan, influenced by The Second Sex, wrote the bestselling book The Feminine Mystique in which she explicitly objected to the mainstream media image of women, stating that placing women at home limited their possibilities, and wasted talent and potential.
The perfect nuclear family image depicted and strongly marketed at the time, she wrote, did not reflect happiness and was rather degrading for women. This book is widely credited with having begun second-wave feminism in the United States
Feminism in the United States - Wikipedia

But you can’t just assume that was the reason why the LCA ordained its first female pastor. You would probably have to read the old LCA records. The ELCA is headquartered in Chicago so I presume the archives would be located there.
 
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I will just reiterate what I said before. I don't believe women should teach men from behind the pulpit. Because I think that's an office exclusive for men taught in scripture.

You're entitled to your opinion.

And God is entitled to choose whomever he wishes.
 
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trophy33

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Wesleyans recognize scripture, tradition, reason, and experience as being authoritative, with scripture being primary.

(Please do note though that "scripture" is not necessarily defined as "scripture seen and interpreted through the special lens of myst33. It's an important distinction!)
What did I interpret?
 
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But you can’t just assume that was the reason why the LCA ordained its first female pastor. You would probably have to read the old LCA records. The ELCA is headquartered in Chicago so I presume the archives would be located there.
Well, it happened in the USA in the 70's. Its natural there was a cultural context tied to the place and time.
 
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