Can Traditional Denominations explain this?

Albion · Jan 17, 2022

ChristianForCats said:
This specific passage (in the NIV) is one of the two things I was taught at church that prove baptism is no more than a public display of your faith.

If so, the obvious question at this point is "Why then did the Good Thief not have to be baptized in order to prove his faith in Christ?''

The Liturgist · Jan 17, 2022

GodLovesCats · Jan 17, 2022

Albion said:
If so, the obvious question at this point is "Why then did the Good Thief not have to be baptized in order to prove his faith in Christ?''

Because he was telling Jesus directly his faith is in Christ. Jesus heard everything he needed to hear to do what the thief wanted under the Old Covenant.

Albion · Jan 18, 2022

ChristianForCats said:
Because he was telling Jesus directly his faith is in Christ. Jesus heard everything he needed to hear to do what the thief wanted under the Old Covenant.

The logic then would be that no one would need to be baptized. Those churches that say they abide by the principle of "Believer's Baptism" would simply require a public statement from the person involved. None of the water ritual would be required, since it wouldn't be needed, either as a sacrament, OR as a gesture.

And yet, churches that say that it's important to be baptized upon a profession of faith still will "re-baptize" someone coming from another denomination. Going by your explanation here, the ordinance is simultaesously unimportant and very important to them.

GodLovesCats · Jan 18, 2022

Albion said:
The logic then would be that no one would need to be baptized. Those churches that say they abide by the principle of "Believer's Baptism" would simply require a public statement from the person involved. None of the water ritual would be required, since it wouldn't be needed, either as a sacrament, OR as a gesture.

And yet, churches that say that it's important to be baptized upon a profession of faith still will "re-baptize" someone coming from another denomination. Going by your explanation here, the ordinance is simultaneously unimportant and very important to them.

Baptism is a command for believers to publicly display their conversion.

Pentecostal, Baptist, and evangelical churches baptize believers even if they were baptized during infancy. They do not count infant baptism because only faith, not water, can save a person.

Albion · Jan 18, 2022

ChristianForCats said:
Baptism is a command for believers to publicly display their conversion.

No, it is a command that believers be baptized.

Pentecostal, Baptist, and evangelical churches baptize believers even if they were baptized during infancy.

My reference was to the re-baptizing of people who change, as adults, from one denomination and congregation to another. .

It's common although I realize that it's not always done.

They do not count infant baptism because only faith, not water, can save a person.

I don't know of ANY church that imagines it's water that saves anyone, so you might as well argue that "only faith, not candlelight, can save a person."

MarkRohfrietsch · Jan 18, 2022

ChristianForCats said:
Baptism is a command for believers to publicly display their conversion.

Pentecostal, Baptist, and evangelical churches baptize believers even if they were baptized during infancy. They do not count infant baptism because only faith, not water, can save a person.

An ego-centric rather than cross-centered theology. We get it.

MarkRohfrietsch · Jan 18, 2022

ChristianForCats said:
Baptism is a command for believers to publicly display their conversion.

Pentecostal, Baptist, and evangelical churches baptize believers even if they were baptized during infancy. They do not count infant baptism because only faith, not water, can save a person.

You have missed the point; it is the word of God in, with, and under the water, by the very command our our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. The forgiveness is from Christ himself.

GreekOrthodox · Jan 18, 2022

MarkRohfrietsch said:
You have missed the point; it is the word of God in, with, and under the water, by the very command our our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. The forgiveness is from Christ himself.

This is one of the prayers during an Orthodox baptism

But do You, O Master of All, declare this water to be water of redemption, water of sanctification, a cleansing of flesh and spirit, a loosing of bonds, a forgiveness of sins, an illumination of soul, a laver of regeneration, a renewal of the spirit, a gift of sonship, a garment of incorruption, a fountain of life. For You have said, O Lord: "Wash, and be clean; put away evil from your souls." You have bestowed upon us regeneration from on high by water and the spirit. Manifest Yourself, O Lord, in this water, and grant that he (she) that is to be baptized may be transformed therein to the putting away of the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and to the putting on of the new, which is renewed according to the Image of Him that created him (her). That, being planted in the likeness of Your death through Baptism, he (she) may become a sharer of Your Resurrection; and, preserving the Gift of Your Holy Spirit, and increasing the deposit of Grace, he (she) may attain unto prize of his (her) high calling, and accounted among the number of the first-born, whose names are written in Heaven, in You our God and Lord Jesus Christ.

GodLovesCats · Jan 18, 2022

MarkRohfrietsch said:
An ego-centric rather than cross-centered theology. We get it.

What do you mean by not cross-centered?

It is snot about age, but belief.

GreekOrthodox · Jan 18, 2022

ChristianForCats said:
What do you mean by not cross-centered?

It is snot about age, but belief.

The short hand for Lutheran theology is theologia crucis, the Theology of the Cross.

According to Luther, the theologian of the cross preaches what seems foolish to the world (1 Cor. 1:18). In particular, the theologian of the cross preaches that (1) humans can in no way earn righteousness, (2) humans cannot add to or increase the righteousness of the cross, and (3) any righteousness given to humanity comes from outside of us (extra nos).

In contrast, in Luther's view, the theologian of glory preaches that (1) humans have the ability to do the good that lies within them (quod in se est), (2) there remains, after the fall, some ability to choose the good, and (3) humans cannot be saved without participating in or cooperating with the righteousness given by God.

MarkRohfrietsch · Jan 19, 2022

ChristianForCats said:
What do you mean by not cross-centered?

It is snot about age, but belief.

GreekOrthodox said:
The short hand for Lutheran theology is theologia crucis, the Theology of the Cross.

According to Luther, the theologian of the cross preaches what seems foolish to the world (1 Cor. 1:18). In particular, the theologian of the cross preaches that (1) humans can in no way earn righteousness, (2) humans cannot add to or increase the righteousness of the cross, and (3) any righteousness given to humanity comes from outside of us (extra nos).

In contrast, in Luther's view, the theologian of glory preaches that (1) humans have the ability to do the good that lies within them (quod in se est), (2) there remains, after the fall, some ability to choose the good, and (3) humans cannot be saved without participating in or cooperating with the righteousness given by God.

I could not have said it better. Believers baptism, Altar Calls, Testimonials are all about what the individual has done to "earn" salvation; not about Christ and the Grace of God that is imparted to the believer despite our complete unworthiness. Martin Luther explains this so well in his explanation of the Third Article of the Apostles Creed:

Of Sanctification.
I believe in the Holy Ghost; one holy Christian Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.

What does this mean?
I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.

MarkRohfrietsch · Jan 19, 2022

GreekOrthodox said:
This is one of the prayers during an Orthodox baptism

But do You, O Master of All, declare this water to be water of redemption, water of sanctification, a cleansing of flesh and spirit, a loosing of bonds, a forgiveness of sins, an illumination of soul, a laver of regeneration, a renewal of the spirit, a gift of sonship, a garment of incorruption, a fountain of life. For You have said, O Lord: "Wash, and be clean; put away evil from your souls." You have bestowed upon us regeneration from on high by water and the spirit. Manifest Yourself, O Lord, in this water, and grant that he (she) that is to be baptized may be transformed therein to the putting away of the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and to the putting on of the new, which is renewed according to the Image of Him that created him (her). That, being planted in the likeness of Your death through Baptism, he (she) may become a sharer of Your Resurrection; and, preserving the Gift of Your Holy Spirit, and increasing the deposit of Grace, he (she) may attain unto prize of his (her) high calling, and accounted among the number of the first-born, whose names are written in Heaven, in You our God and Lord Jesus Christ.

Very nice; I also Love Luther's flood prayer that teaches how God has continually used water to cleanse and preserve His people; good article here Luther's Flood Prayer - Lutheran Reformation:

Almighty and eternal God, according to Your strict judgment You condemned the unbelieving world through the flood, yet according to Your great mercy You preserved believing Noah and his family, eight souls in all. You drowned hard-hearted Pharaoh and all his host in the Red Sea, yet led Your people Israel through the water on dry ground, prefiguring this washing of Your Holy Baptism. Through the Baptism in the Jordan of Your beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, You sanctified and instituted all waters to be a blessed flood, and a lavish washing away of sin. We pray that You would behold (name(s)) according to Your boundless mercy and bless him/her/them with true faith by the Holy Spirit that through this saving flood all sin in him which has been inherited from Adam and which he himself has committed since would be drowned and die. Grant that he/she/they be kept safe and secure in the holy ark of the Christian Church, being separated from the multitude of unbelievers and serving Your name at all times with a fervent spirit and a joyful hope, so that, with all believers in Your promise, he would be declared worthy of eternal life, through Jesus Christ, our Lord.

Albion · Jan 20, 2022

Randy777 said:
I was not speaking against baptism. I am just showing the Lord Himself has the authority to grant eternal life to that man apart from water baptism.

and that is a point I myself have made a number of times, so perhaps there was a misunderstanding.

The Liturgist · Jan 20, 2022

MarkRohfrietsch said:
You have missed the point; it is the word of God in, with, and under the water, by the very command our our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. The forgiveness is from Christ himself.

Mark is the best scholar of divinity on the forum. Dude, just retire and seize charge of the LCC reorganizing it as an episcopal polity with yourself as His Beatitude Markos I Rohfrietschomenos, Evangelical Catholicos of Canada.

The Liturgist · Jan 20, 2022

GreekOrthodox said:
No because the Greek is singular, not plural.
Ἀμήν λέγω σοι (you, singular) σήμερον ἔσῃ (you, singular) ...
Truly I say to you (singular) today you will be ...

Indeed, that’s why the Eastern Orthodox cross has the footrest inclined to one side.

The Liturgist · Jan 20, 2022

St. Helens · Jan 21, 2022

ADMIN HAT ON

Examples of traditional churches are Eastern Orthodox Churches, Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Roman Catholic Church, Anglicans, Assyrian Church of the East, etc. If you do not attend a traditional church, then you should be asking questions about traditional theology, not teaching.
ADMIN HAT OFF

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