Is Job righteous by work or by faith?

LayHong_Loves_Christ said:

Is Job righteous by work or by faith?

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The Apostle Paul talks about a dichotomy between faith and works of the Law. But there is never a dichotomy between faith and works of Love. You show your faith by obedience to God. This is how Abraham showed his faith according to both Paul and James. There is no dichotomy. In fact, the Greek word for faith can be translated "faithfulness", which implies works of love, and the distinction is only arbitrary.

LayHong_Loves_Christ said:

Does Job need Jesus' grace of Salvation?

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There is absolutely no salvation for anyone without Jesus' grace.

LayHong_Loves_Christ said:

Did Job follow Moses's Law 100% and faultless?

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Job did not follow Moses' Law at all. He wasn't even Jewish. He lived in the land of Oz. Like every virtuous person before and after him, he was justified by faith / faithfulness.

LayHong_Loves_Christ said:

Job,
1:8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job?
There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

Is Job righteous by work or by faith?
Does Job need Jesus' grace of Salvation?
Did Job follow Moses's Law 100% and faultless?

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1. Job is righteous by both. Works alone or belief alone does not save. The Book of James makes this clear. Faith is active, not passive. Even devils believe in Christ, and they even obey Him, but only out of fear, not love.
2. Yes Job does, and I believe Job accepted or will accept it.
3. No Job did not. He couldn't have as he was before Moses. Yet Job is counted by God as one of the most righteous men ever.

LayHong_Loves_Christ said:

Job,
1:8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job?
There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

Is Job righteous by work or by faith?
Does Job need Jesus' grace of Salvation?
Did Job follow Moses's Law 100% and faultless?

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It is the consensus of many scholars that Job lived before Moses , was not an Israelite so he was not under the Mosaic Covenant. So Job was both, faithful and righteous by his own will.
Blessings

I copied this from biblewise.com

The best scholars can do is place Uz in the "East," possibly in Edom. There is a little more information in the Greek and Latin versions of the Book of Job. There, it states that Job dwelt in Ausitis on the confines of Idumea and Arabia. It continues that his original name was Johab. He married an Arabian woman and fathered Ennon. Job's father was Zerah who was from the lineage of Esau – five generations from Abraham. They were natives of Bozrah. The text continues that Job reigned in Edom succeeding Balak, the son of Beor. (In the Hebrew Bible, Balaam is the son of Beor.) Following Job were Husham and then Hadad, who was the son of Bedad and who defeated the Midianites in the fields of Moab. His city was named Arith. His three friends were Eliaphaz, a descendant of Esau and king of Teman, Bildad, king of the Shuhites, and Zophar, king of the Naamathites. Several church Fathers as well as Philo, Aristeus, and Polyhistor attested to the accuracy of this genealogy.

According to the LXX, Job was a descendant of Esau. So he must have learned about Yahweh from Esau. The Edomites seem to have worshipped Yahweh for a time, but then fell into idolatry. Job was a righteous remnant among them.

LayHong_Loves_Christ said:

Job,
1:8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job?
There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

Is Job righteous by work or by faith?
Does Job need Jesus' grace of Salvation?
Did Job follow Moses's Law 100% and faultless?

Click to expand...

James said faith without works is dead. So works builds up a strong living faith that can stand against pressures that come. Faith without the works will fold when the pressures come. So both faith and works go hand in hand.

LayHong_Loves_Christ said:

Job,
1:8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job?
There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

Is Job righteous by work or by faith?
Does Job need Jesus' grace of Salvation?
Did Job follow Moses's Law 100% and faultless?

Click to expand...

Job is righteous and blameless by faith. All are declared righteous by faith in the coming Messiah for OT times and faith in Christ Jesus for the NT believers. (Romans 4:5) This is why King David also writes in Psalm26:1 that he has led a blameless life..he goes on to say in the second half of that statement: I have trusted in the LORD and have not faltered.
God does put the faith of believers to the test...this is why Psalm 66:9-11 also reads as follows:
9 he has preserved our lives
and kept our feet from slipping.
10 For you, God, tested us;
you refined us like silver.
11 You brought us into prison
and laid burdens on our backs.
Our faith is tested to refine it and strengthen us as well as to educate us about God's ways.

LayHong_Loves_Christ said:

Curious, how did Job know God, the same God of Israel?

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Job knew about God before the Book of Genesis was written, as he said,
"I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees You"
(Job 42:5).

28 And to man He said, 'Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom,
and to depart from evil is understanding'.

What is interesting about Job 28:28 is that Job said that this is what
[God said to man] and there is no record of this being said in Genesis.

LayHong_Loves_Christ said:

Job,
1:8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job?
There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

Is Job righteous by work or by faith?
Does Job need Jesus' grace of Salvation?
Did Job follow Moses's Law 100% and faultless?

Click to expand...

Righteousness is a character trait of God that is straightforwardly expressed by doing what is righteous and the Law of Moses is God's instructions for how to express that character trait, not for how to attain it. For example, the Law of Moses reveals that helping the poor is a way to do what is righteous, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to become righteous because the one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous is by grace through faith. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through 100% faultless obedience, but rather they testify that it comes through faith in Christ for all who believe, so that is the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets. Having a character straightforwardly means that we are someone who chooses to take actions that express that character trait, so when God declares us to be righteous, He is also declaring us to be someone who chooses to take actions that express His righteousness in obedience to His instructions for how to do that found in His law.

So someone who has faith is also someone who chooses to take actions that express faith, which is why there are many verses that connect our obedience to God with our faith in Him, or that connect our disobedience to God with breaking faith. For example, in Romans 3:31, our faith upholds the Law of Moses. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law of Moses. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In John 3:36, believing in Jesus is equated with obeying him. In James 2:17-18, faith without works is dead and he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works in obedience to God is what faith looks like. Every example of faith listed in Hebrews 11 is also an example of works done in obedience to God.

In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Law of Moses, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by making known to him His ways that he might experientially know Him, and Israel too, in verses like Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7 an Psalms 119:1-3, God made known the way to experientially know Him through His law, and in John 17:3, eternal life is experientially knowing God and Jesus, so again that is the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what the Law of Moses was given to teach how to do, so God graciously teaching us to obey it is itself part of the content of His gift of salvation.

keiw said:

James said faith without works is dead. So works builds up a strong living faith that can stand against pressures that come. Faith without the works will fold when the pressures come. So both faith and works go hand in hand.

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James' emphasis on "works" is often misunderstood, as you do here. It means that if you just "sit around" and do nothing but feel "holy", i.e., feel good about yourself, then your faith is worthless. Faith requires that you live a life according to Christ. Nothing more...

Andrewn said:

The Apostle Paul talks about a dichotomy between faith and works of the Law. But there is never a dichotomy between faith and works of Love. You show your faith by obedience to God. This is how Abraham showed his faith according to both Paul and James. There is no dichotomy. In fact, the Greek word for faith can be translated "faithfulness", which implies works of love, and the distinction is only arbitrary.

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Do you agree that works of the law were not commanded by God then? If we show our faith by our obedience to God and there is a dichotomy between faith and works of the law, then works of the law are not commanded by God. Likewise, in Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Law and the Prophets as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so it is works of love, and if there is no dichotomy between faith and works of love, then there is no dichotomy between faith and the Law and the Prophets, unlike between faith and works of the law.

Job did not follow Moses' Law at all. He wasn't even Jewish. He lived in the land of Oz. Like every virtuous person before and after him, he was justified by faith / faithfulness.

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There is much evidence of many of God's laws being given throughout Genesis prior to when they were given as part of the Law of Moses. For example, in Genesis 39:9, Joseph knew that it was a sin against God to commit adultery long before the Mosaic Covenant was made, so there is nothing about a law being included as part of that covenant that means that it is only for Jews. In Genesis 18:19, it says that God experientially knew Abraham that he might teach his children how to walk in His ways by doing righteousness and justice that the Lord may bring to him all that He has promised, namely in Genesis 26:4-5, God will multiply Abraham's offspring as the stars in the sky, he will give to his offspring all of these lands, and in his offspring all of the nations of the earth will be blessed because Abraham heard God's voice and guarded His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by making known to him His ways that he might experientially know Him, and Israel too, God's ways are the ways in which He expresses aspects of His nature (Genesis 18:19, 2 Samuel 22:21-37), and God made His ways known through His law (Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7), and God's laws for how to walk in His ways were how the offspring of Abraham knew how to be blessed (Psalms 119:1-3). So the fulfilment of the promises comes through the offspring of Abraham being a light and a blessing to the nations by teaching them to turn from their wickedness and how to experientially know God through expressing His nature by walking in His ways in obedience to His law, which has it ultimate fulfillment in Jesus, who is the living embodiment of God's ways (John 14:6), and who was sent to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), so if you think it was just a Jewish thing that was specific to Moses, then you're missing the whole point.

pescador said:

James' emphasis on "works" is often misunderstood, as you do here. It means that if you just "sit around" and do nothing but feel "holy", i.e., feel good about yourself, then your faith is worthless. Faith requires that you live a life according to Christ. Nothing more...

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The word works is exactly what it says. Without the works behind ones faith it is worthless. Works builds a strong living faith.

keiw said:

The word works is exactly what it says. Without the works behind ones faith it is worthless. Works builds a strong living faith.

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a) What in your opinion are "works"?
b) Suppose for some reason you can't do "works"? Suppose you're incapacitated or in a nursing home? Then what? Your faith is "worthless"?

pescador said:

a) What in your opinion are "works"?
b) Suppose for some reason you can't do "works"? Suppose you're incapacitated or in a nursing home? Then what? Your faith is "worthless"?

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One would have learned truth before they entered a nursing home most likely. God takes things into consideration. Works= anything done from the love Jesus spoke about. That goes farther than just family and friends but to ones enemies as well. That is where most are lacking. Many took it out of context an eye for an eye. It actually meant-justice would prevail if not by the one wronged then God would make sure justice prevailed. If someone took your eye and it was a evil act, if you returned the same it would still be an evil act. At Matthew 5:38-44--Jesus teaches truth on the matter. He said-turn the other cheek. Love your enemies he said. Pride gets in most peoples way to apply Jesus. Because Few knows what he teaches.

keiw said:

One would have learned truth before they entered a nursing home most likely. God takes things into consideration. Works= anything done from the love Jesus spoke about. That goes farther than just family and friends but to ones enemies as well. That is where most are lacking. Many took it out of context an eye for an eye. It actually meant-justice would prevail if not by the one wronged then God would make sure justice prevailed. If someone took your eye and it was a evil act, if you returned the same it would still be an evil act. At Matthew 5:38-44--Jesus teaches truth on the matter. He said-turn the other cheek. Love your enemies he said. Pride gets in most peoples way to apply Jesus. Because Few knows what he teaches.

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"That is where most are lacking."
"Many took it out of context"
"Pride gets in most peoples way to apply Jesus"
"Few knows what he teaches."

Would you let us know the data that you cite for these condemnations of other Christians? Have you done an extensive survey of the church, a.k.a. body of Christ?

Or, as I suspect, are you setting yourself up as the judge of the church as a whole? If that is the case, what is your authority?

LayHong_Loves_Christ said:

Job,
1:8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job?
There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

Is Job righteous by work or by faith?
Does Job need Jesus' grace of Salvation?
Did Job follow Moses's Law 100% and faultless?

Click to expand...

Romans 3:10-12
as it is written: There is no righteous person, not even one;
There is no one who understands, There is no one who seeks out God;
They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, There is not even one.

That is equivalent to asking is there an honest politician?

No such creature.

klutedavid said:

Romans 3:10-12
as it is written: There is no righteous person, not even one;
There is no one who understands, There is no one who seeks out God;
They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, There is not even one.

That is equivalent to asking is there an honest politician?

No such creature.

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So we're all doomed??? Believing in Christ as one's Savior is meaningless???

pescador said:

So we're all doomed??? Believing in Christ as one's Savior is meaningless???

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Did I say that?

I thought that Paul was talking?

None righteous unless they receive the free gift of Christ's righteousness.

pescador said:

"That is where most are lacking."
"Many took it out of context"
"Pride gets in most peoples way to apply Jesus"
"Few knows what he teaches."

Would you let us know the data that you cite for these condemnations of other Christians? Have you done an extensive survey of the church, a.k.a. body of Christ?

Or, as I suspect, are you setting yourself up as the judge of the church as a whole? If that is the case, what is your authority?

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Rev war--civil war--ww1, ww2- millions upon millions slaughtered-Catholic vs catholic, baptist vs baptist, etc,etc. They even killed their own supposed brothers in Christ for a man named Hitler. 1John 3: 10-12--no slaughtering of brothers. 1Timothy 1:8--speaks against manslayers.
Jesus would never condone the brothers in Christ displaying such hatred as blowing each others heads off. He taught a true mark of his religion would be-Love amongst themselves.
There is no love involved in the wars of men. Ending human life is a very serious matter.