Oath Keepers leader and 10 others charged with seditious conspiracy:

Whyayeman

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Was she a paid-up Oath Keeper alongside other allegedly organised members of that organisation? Was she among those shouting 'Hang Mike Pence!' If so it affects the interpretation of why she was breaking into the Chamber.

She ignored all warnings. In trigger-happy America what sort of person does that? I think she was either reckless as to her fate or an idiot - or both.
 
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durangodawood

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1. The failed insurrection is important outside America, not least to the Europeans who felt abandoned by America over the joint defence arrangements NATO represents.

2. Like much of the world beyond America I am appalled at the possibility of another four years of Trumpism.

3. My view that he repudiated the spirit of international cooperation in defence of democratic values is widely shared here in the UK.

4. I am dismayed by the apparently slavish admiration for Trump in 'certain quarters'.

5. We Europeans can only be spectators as America tears itself to shreds through the intransigent attitudes displayed in American party politics, but there is an opportunity here to engage with the contending viewpoints.

6. I am curious to see how the civil unrest - the events of January 6th 2020 - develop.

7. My opinion as I watched the events at the Capitol that there was a strong suggestion of planning and organisation of the insurrection has been strengthened by subsequent events and by a tv programme shown on BBC in which the evidence of organised paramilitary groups moving through the crowds was clear.

There are other reasons I won't delineate now; that is enough to be getting on with, I think.

Nevertheless, this is not the only topic I participate in. I have expressed views on capital punishment, on other current events and moral issues. I was keenly interested in and took part in the George Floyd case and other threads in which the actions of police were looked at. So my interest in the Oath Keepers is hardly exclusive.

Why did you ask, durangodawood?
I ask because I'm generally interested in what UK people make of the USA, and why. How do we look from over there. I have UK relatives too, but they dont talk politics so much.

I guess I can understand how the rest of the world shudders a bit to see the USA drifting into fantasyland.
 
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Tom 1

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Was she a paid-up Oath Keeper alongside other allegedly organised members of that organisation? Was she among those shouting 'Hang Mike Pence!' If so it affects the interpretation of why she was breaking into the Chamber.

She ignored all warnings. In trigger-happy America what sort of person does that? I think she was either reckless as to her fate or an idiot - or both.

Comparing the thinly disguised 'they got what was coming to them' comments made over controversial police killings of unarmed civilians with the attempts to make a martyr of Ashley Babbit by some of the same people seems like another incidence of how extreme the partisan blinkers really are in the US. I mean I suppose it's an issue everywhere but something about US culture really turns it up to 10.
 
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essentialsaltes

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There was not a single gun found on any of the demonstrators

Fact checking claims January 6 was not an armed insurrection - CNNPolitics

According to police testimony, Christopher Alberts was arrested leaving the Capitol grounds on January 6 while trying to flee from officers after they suspected he was carrying a firearm on his hip. Alberts was carrying a loaded pistol and 25 rounds of ammunition, according to court documents.

Guy Reffitt has been charged with illegally bringing a handgun on Capitol grounds on January 6. Reffitt allegedly told family members he "brought his gun with him" in the Capitol attack.

Mark Ibrahim, who at the time was an off-duty special agent for the Drug Enforcement Administration, has been charged with bringing his service weapon on Capitol grounds during the insurrection as well as lying to the FBI about why he was at the Capitol.


More relevant to the OP topic:

Federal prosecutors have also said members of the Oath Keepers, a paramilitary group, likely stored weapons at a hotel in Arlington, Virginia, as part of their plan to have an armed rapid-response force during the January 6 insurrection.

The indictment helps to flesh this out with the defendants' own words.

upload_2022-1-18_6-51-10.png
 
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Whyayeman

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I can only speak for myself, of course, but in my view the great majority here are dismayed by the gun crime, appalled by the mass shootings, bewildered by the overt racism - especially the treatment of black African Americans by the police - and despise Trump. This sits awkwardly with the affection many of us feel for America and Americans and with the familiar ties we feel (for many British families this is literally the case).

The events of the Presidential Election of 2020 were viewed here with a mixture of appalled fascination and horror. From here it looks as though the democracy America defended in two world Wars and decades of the Pax Americana of the second half of the Twentieth Century is on the endangered species list.
 
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Whyayeman

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Comparing the thinly disguised 'they got what was coming to them' comments made over controversial police killings of unarmed civilians with the attempts to make a martyr of Ashley Babbit by some of the same people seems like another incidence of how extreme the partisan blinkers really are in the US. I mean I suppose it's an issue everywhere but something about US culture really turns it up to 10.

I do not think that the shootings of civilians is much of an issue here or in most countries. America is exceptional in this respect. Police are not routinely armed in the UK. The strategy here is for special groups of armed response units to be deployed when it is suspected that a suspect is armed. These groups are trained to de-escalate the situation if possible. The usual outcome does not involve firing a single shot. When it goes wrong they are expected to 'stop' the suspect. That usually means shoot to kill. An enquiry must be held by another police force, which usually begins within hours of the fatality.

Our police are far from perfect but it is rare for anybody to die at their hands. Most who are killed are terrorists in imminent or current action.
 
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TLK Valentine

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You've been told this before, but I guess bad memory comes with making so many bad (faith?) arguements. Isn't the first time we've argued about her.
I personally consider her a traitor, for having been a military member and having sworn oaths to defend her nation and its laws and constitution and then betraying them by the attempted sedition. Those oaths don't disappear when you're no longer in active service. So yes, I consider her a traitor to her oaths.

As (former) commander in chief, Donald considers those oaths binding to him personally -- apparently his followers do as well.
 
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Tom 1

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I do not think that the shootings of civilians is much of an issue here or in most countries. America is exceptional in this respect. Police are not routinely armed in the UK. The strategy here is for special groups of armed response units to be deployed when it is suspected that a suspect is armed. These groups are trained to de-escalate the situation if possible. The usual outcome does not involve firing a single shot. When it goes wrong they are expected to 'stop' the suspect. That usually means shoot to kill. An enquiry must be held by another police force, which usually begins within hours of the fatality.

Our police are far from perfect but it is rare for anybody to die at their hands. Most who are killed are terrorists in imminent or current action.

I see what you mean, partisanship is what I was getting at though. That kind of political divide exists everywhere but in the US it seems almost cartoonishly exaggerated. I used to think it was a result of the simple minded right wing media over there, but I suppose that’s kind of a chicken and egg scenario. TV news everywhere can be open to the same accusations: The BBC has been acting like the Fox News of the Left
 
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Hans Blaster

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Sticking to the charges discussed in the OP:

Yeah, the world’s first unarmed coup.

The charge is ridiculous.

The 11 defendants are not charged with being armed on Capitol grounds, however...

* The had caches of weapons across the river in Virginia and plans to bring them to the Capitol if needed.

* The conspirators discussed which weapons to bring and whether to bring them into DC extensively

* The leader of the group (and lead defendant) said on New Year's Eve that there was "no standard political or legal way out of this". (Par. 40)

* The planned (but it's not clear if they executed), a reconnaissance of the Capitol security perimeter the *MORNING AFTER* the attack. (Par. 127)

etc.

Go read the indictment:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1462481/download

It is fairly easy to read, the main part is 30 double-spaced pages. The writing style of indictments is fairly straight forward and not ponderous.

If you're going to claim the charges are "ridiculous" then you should know what they are accused of doing, and not just the names of the charges.

No one claims that these 11 individuals were going to overturn the government of the US by themselves, nor is "Seditious Conspiracy" the same as a coup.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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It's an insurrection. They have now brought about the first charges of sedition. There will be more to come, just as everyone has been telling you.
Nope. It was not an insurrection. It did not meet the legal definition.

The PTB are desperately trying to deflect nonstop to this single afternoon in the hope you won't notice the dumpster fires they have caused on every front: the border, Afghanistan, More Covid cases now because of poor management, inflation, etc.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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they weren't trying to overthrow the government. Pay attention.

They were trying to block the results of an election to put the loser, the tremendous loser, proven in court dozens of times, loser, into power.

That is a lot easier. Don't create strawman
Here were some actual insurrections, for those who do not understand history, and think this afternoon of January 6 was an "insurrection". It was not.

6 Violent Uprisings in the United States
 
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Whyayeman

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Here were some actual insurrections, for those who do not understand history, and think this afternoon of January 6 was an "insurrection". It was not.

6 Violent Uprisings in the United States

Perhaps the events of 6th January 2020 would be better described as an uprising. Personally, I don't much mind what word is used. We all know this. There was an organised, co-ordinated attempt to prevent the elected representatives of the American people from their lawful business. The mob threatened violence and death to the country's leaders, specifically the Vice President and the Speaker of the House of Congress. The other representatives had reason to fear for their own lives and family members who were there to witness the moment of transition of power in a democratic country.

We now know that weapons were carried to the Capitol and a great many more were stockpiled just beyond the border of Washington DC. We now know that the leadership of the Oath Keepers have been charged with seditious conspiracy.

There will be a verdict which should settle this once and for all. If found guilty there will inevitably be substantial sentences. Who here thinks that will really be the end of it?
 
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TLK Valentine

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7thKeeper

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What is the legal definition of "insurrection"? Provide text and citation. (US law only.)

Funnily enough, IIRC, "seditious conspiracy" is actually a heavier accusation than insurrection in the US law. 20 years in prison Vs 10 years, if I'm not completely mistaken.
 
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Belk

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Nope. It was not an insurrection. It did not meet the legal definition.

The PTB are desperately trying to deflect nonstop to this single afternoon in the hope you won't notice the dumpster fires they have caused on every front: the border, Afghanistan, More Covid cases now because of poor management, inflation, etc.


Insurrection

Insurrection
A rising or rebellion of citizens against their government, usually manifested by acts of violence.

Under federal law, it is a crime to incite, assist, or engage in such conduct against the United States.


Looks like it fits the legal definition to me. Can you point us to where you believe it falls short?
 
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disciple Clint

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Fact checking claims January 6 was not an armed insurrection - CNNPolitics

According to police testimony, Christopher Alberts was arrested leaving the Capitol grounds on January 6 while trying to flee from officers after they suspected he was carrying a firearm on his hip. Alberts was carrying a loaded pistol and 25 rounds of ammunition, according to court documents.

Guy Reffitt has been charged with illegally bringing a handgun on Capitol grounds on January 6. Reffitt allegedly told family members he "brought his gun with him" in the Capitol attack.

Mark Ibrahim, who at the time was an off-duty special agent for the Drug Enforcement Administration, has been charged with bringing his service weapon on Capitol grounds during the insurrection as well as lying to the FBI about why he was at the Capitol.


More relevant to the OP topic:

Federal prosecutors have also said members of the Oath Keepers, a paramilitary group, likely stored weapons at a hotel in Arlington, Virginia, as part of their plan to have an armed rapid-response force during the January 6 insurrection.

The indictment helps to flesh this out with the defendants' own words.

View attachment 311183
Ok they were on the "gounds" so? I do not see anything indicating they were inside or demonstrating.
 
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disciple Clint

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Yeah, we all saw the memo.



Nobody accused the MAGA mob of 1/6 of having an overabundance of clues...
interesting post what is the source of the memo, who wrote it, when, how do we know, why was it written? It seems to be a legal opinion, certainly nothing wrong with having a written legal opinion. It was obviously not acted upon. So what is you point, do you have one?
 
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