Womens roles in the church

Archivist · Jan 17, 2022

LoveofTruth said:
I don't just give opinion, every word i say can be back by scripture. If you don't believe this ask me

Then why do you not approve of female ministers? That is, after all, fully backed by scripture. I've provided examples, you dismissed them.

LoveofTruth · Jan 17, 2022

Archivist said:
Then why do you not approve of female ministers? That is, after all, fully backed by scripture. I've provided examples, you dismissed them.

If you read all my words in this post you will see that I show women can minister in the measure and order of God. But part of that order is that they submit to thier husbands abs do not usurp authority over the man and they do not judge and teach over men, so no oversight. But I show much of what women can do in the body, they can function greatly .

Archivist · Jan 17, 2022

LoveofTruth said:
If you read all my words in this post you will see that I show women can minister in the measure and order of God. But part of that order is that they submit to thier husbands abs do not usurp authority over the man and they do not judge and teach over men, so no oversight. But I show much of what women can do in the body, they can function greatly .

That is your opinion. Many of us read scripture and come up with different answers.

Paidiske · Jan 17, 2022

LoveofTruth said:
...and yet all the scriptures I gave to show clearly what I am saying and my correction and instruction in this matter seem to be totally ignored.

I'm not disputing the Scriptures. I'm disputing your application of them.

LoveofTruth said:
No, it is not always a long term process, even though it is also profitable to come along side and word years as I have with others in these things.

While not denying that there are occasions recorded in Scripture when one charismatic leader spoke and there was a strong response, I am going to stand by my statement that that is not the norm in our situation.

LoveofTruth said:
You totally misjudge me. I usually , when sent to a church by the Lord (with other brothers as well) will work with them for a long time, get to know as many as I can, sit among them in their gatherings and bible studies and often the brothers and sisters there show love and kindness to me and are encouraged and glad to share together.

I can only go by what you're posting here. And what you're posting is filled with contempt for people.

LoveofTruth said:
This is not ac curate what you share here. It is a phycology and philosophy of the modern word, not scripture.

It would be unwise to have no regard for what our best understanding of human psychology can teach us about how to minister well.

LoveofTruth said:
...consider these verses and tell me how they fit into your modern phycology of ministry.

I think most of what you're talking about is not "ministry" as we understand it today. Jesus in the temple was not seeking to lead a community. The prophets were voices outside the usual leadership, whether spiritual or temporal. Paul is a better example, but Paul's letters demonstrate a much more complex approach; none of them are unrelievedly negative about the people to whom he writes.

LoveofTruth said:
Jesus said similar bold words and rebuked many for sin and even called them certain names. Would you correct Jesus for such words and actions according to your own understanding of ministry? and the modern phycology and philosophy of today?

Of course we don't "correct" Jesus. But in the reading and reflecting together on Scripture, we are able to discern together how those words might be received by us today. And sometimes people need to hear that correction as directed to them, but the way that message is brought will make a huge difference to how it is heard.

LoveofTruth said:
I have sat with many one on one. But where do we see in scripture that you have to sit one one one with a church body???? We see whole churches addressed and God's people of all time have often been corrected together as a gathering. Jesus does this to the churches in Revelation and he even says that the Laodicean church will be spewed out of His mouth if they don't repent. Yes we will speak to believers one on one. But also and often to the entire church. For the issues God sends me for are often affecting the entire church.

Do you not remember many conversations which Christ had with one person at a time? I say this because the privacy and care of a one on one conversation allow people to be more honest with themselves and with each other, than if they feel pressure from a group to be a particular way. Often small groups build similar levels of trust over time, but it is the time and the trust that is key.

LoveofTruth said:
And what if you find through discussion and the history of a assembly that their views have been shaped by false man made traditions of a long time ago or a false leader that makes the word of God of no effect and that is a corruption form a long time ago? Are we to ignore such things and do nothing to "make men like us more?"

Of course we don't ignore it. But it's much more effective to question it gently, to help people recognise why the views they have held have been unhealthy, and to help them explore options in their thinking, than to yell at them and tell them they should think just like you.

LoveofTruth said:
And in what new ways are you speaking of?

Paul himself wrote to the Romans that they must "be transformed by the renewing of their minds." I believe we are speaking of much the same thing; you are speaking of abandoning false traditions etc. and I am saying that part of that is learning to think in new ways, and both of these relate to what Paul said about renewing our minds. Otherwise we simply persist in our old patterns of thought and habits of behaviour.

LoveofTruth said:
And show me the "leadership Teams" you speak of in scripture. Yes, I know there are biblical male elders in every church. But show me the word leader ship , or leadership teams, (in the KJV preferably)

Paul wrote of "forms of leadership" (1 Corinthians 12:28), and I used that term because whether a church has a group of elders or a board or a parish council or whatever, every church has some sort of group which deals with practical matters and leads the mission of that church.

LoveofTruth said:
I don' t act this way.

This thread would suggest otherwise. It's a pretty blunt attack from you.

LoveofTruth said:
There is no such thing as "formal church service" in scripture.

Not in quite the same way you might encounter it today, but there were gatherings with a structure around Scripture, teaching, and a primitive form of communion, with recognised roles taken by authorised people. Much of that was carried over from synagogue services. It would be a mistake to read the NT and conclude that folks were basically having a potluck and a nice time of fellowship without any liturgical structure at all.

LoveofTruth said:
The body ministry and the gifts can function every time they gather, and yes even in women in certain aspects as I said in my first post.

The only way I would disagree with you here is that I see Scripture placing no limits on the gifting and ministry of women.

LoveofTruth said:
But in scripture the body can minister every time they come together under the command of the Lord. Yes they can use gifts outside the gatherings. But I speak of "when you come together..." and the commandments of the Lord.

I don't disagree. The only point I was making was that to consider only the formal worship gatherings was a mistake, because in all the rest of the week - the small groups, the administration, the teaching, the visiting of the sick, whatever good works that local church does - in all of those things people exercise their gifts, and that is necessary for the whole picture. The gathering or service is not the sum total of ministry or giftedness in a church.

LoveofTruth said:
And so I wont have any negative encounters with churches if I don't make waves, don't teach truth that God sends me to speak, if I listen to you over what scripture says???

I'm not saying don't teach what God sends you t speak. I'm talking about how you treat people.

LoveofTruth said:
Well, when every part of the body cannot walk in the gifts God gives them (yes men and women within their own measure and order), then the church is hindered and Christ cannot work in everyone to manifest His grace through the mutual edification of one another.

And this is the accusation I reject. Nobody is prevented from walking in the gifts God gives them, except in those places where women are hindered because of sexism and misogyny.

LoveofTruth said:
Also I have been to many assemblies of many man made denominations and rarely do I see the whole church free to walk and minister to eachother when they gather together on a Sunday or Saturday or whenever. I am sure in your assembly I would never hear on a Sunday main gathering the words from you or any other person "Let us all wait on the Lord for ministry and exercise our spiritual gift edifying one another."

Then you are wrong. In fact I have done such a thing (not perhaps in those exact words, but in similar terms). And this is a good example of people needing to learn to think in new ways, because the response from the congregation was overwhelmingly negative, including some people refusing to return unless I were to revert to a "traditional" sermon. They were not ready.

LoveofTruth said:
But still you attack true prophets and apostles who have often exposed sin in the gatherings even when the gatherings did not recognize them as apostles

Again, I am not attacking anyone. But here's a question I have, after reading all your posts so far. Why have you never sought a recognised leadership role in any of these churches? You claim a God-given mandate to act in that way, why have you never sought to have the church discern and authorise that ministry? Why always act from the outside or the margins?

pescador · Jan 17, 2022

IMHO the discussion regarding women's roles in "the church" is a non-starter. Women are equal to men in the eyes of God. Therefore, it is appropriate that anyone and everyone should follow God's call regardless of gender. There should be no limitation whatsoever due to one's gender. Period.

LoveofTruth · Jan 17, 2022

Archivist said:
That is your opinion. Many of us read scripture and come up with different answers.

Not my opinion. Check the scriptures I give and show me your answers. I have not heard any sound correction from scripture to the verses I give.

Archivist · Jan 17, 2022

LoveofTruth said:
Not my opinion. Check the scriptures I give and show me your answers. I have not heard any sound correction from scripture to the verses I give.

“Nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” Seems very clear to me. But we have been through all this before and you have disagreed with me on every post. You are, of course, entitled to your interpretation of scripture, but if you don’t agree with female pastors, don’t join a church that ordains women. That is simple enough.

LoveofTruth · Jan 17, 2022

Archivist said:
“Nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” Seems very clear to me. But we have been through all this before and you have disagreed with me on every post. If you don’t agree with female pastors, don’t join a church that ordains women. That is simple enough.

I ask you are you a make or female? Paul speaks of “in Chist”. He also speaks of men and women’s roles all through the NT in the natural. There is distinctions in make and female in the natural world and yet in Christ women can prophesy and testify etc.read my first post.

these two aspects are so clear in scripture I marvel that you miss it . And the woman is a type of the church the man is a type of Christ. This presentation to the world is a type of our relationship with Christ or it should be.

here is just one of many many scriptures where Paul refers to make and female in the order and natural world and their presentation in such roles to others.

“ Ephesians 5: 22. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.”

now could a Christian wife say to her husband in relation to these verses that , no she doesn’t have to do that because there is no male or female in Christ?

I think you should re-examine what you believe in this area.

Archivist · Jan 17, 2022

LoveofTruth said:
I ask you are you a make or female? Paul speaks of “in Chist”. He also speaks of men and women’s roles all through the NT in the natural. There is distinctions in make and female in the natural world and yet in Christ women can prophesy and testify etc.read my first post.

these two aspects are so clear in scripture I marvel that you miss it . And the woman is a type of the church the man is a type of Christ. This presentation to the world is a type of our relationship with Christ or it should be.

here is just one of many many scriptures where Paul refers to make and female in the order and natural world and their presentation in such roles to others.

“ Ephesians 5: 22. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.”

now could a Christian wife say to her husband in relation to these verses that , no she doesn’t have to do that because there is no male or female in Christ?

I think you should re-examine what you believe in this area.

Male, not make. Typo on your part.

As I said, you are entitled to your interpretation just as I am entitled to my interpretation. The problem is that you seem to think that your interpretation is the only interpretation. It is not. I assure you, I am not missing anything. I certainly do not need to reexamine what I believe in this area.

Again, and I have said this to you before, I suggest that you not join a church that ordains women.

LoveofTruth · Jan 17, 2022

Archivist said:
Male, not make. Typo on your part.

As I said, you are entitled to your interpretation just as I am entitled to my interpretation. The problem is that you seem to think that your interpretation is the only interpretation. It is not. I assure you, I am not missing anything. I certainly do not need to reexamine what I believe in this area.

Again, and I have said this to you before, I suggest that you not join a church that ordains women.

Yes sorry fir the typos I use my phone sometimes snd the k is right beside the L

and no worries, I won’t join” a church that ordains women over the men. God would not be pleased. But I have visited places that have a single woman over all. I tried to help them, but…

LoveofTruth · Jan 17, 2022

I will redo this post

LoveofTruth · Jan 17, 2022

Paidiske said:
I'm not disputing the Scriptures. I'm disputing your application of them.

While not denying that there are occasions recorded in Scripture when one charismatic leader spoke and there was a strong response, I am going to stand by my statement that that is not the norm in our situation.

I can only go by what you're posting here. And what you're posting is filled with contempt for people.

It would be unwise to have no regard for what our best understanding of human psychology can teach us about how to minister well.

I think most of what you're talking about is not "ministry" as we understand it today. Jesus in the temple was not seeking to lead a community. The prophets were voices outside the usual leadership, whether spiritual or temporal. Paul is a better example, but Paul's letters demonstrate a much more complex approach; none of them are unrelievedly negative about the people to whom he writes.

Of course we don't "correct" Jesus. But in the reading and reflecting together on Scripture, we are able to discern together how those words might be received by us today. And sometimes people need to hear that correction as directed to them, but the way that message is brought will make a huge difference to how it is heard.

Do you not remember many conversations which Christ had with one person at a time? I say this because the privacy and care of a one on one conversation allow people to be more honest with themselves and with each other, than if they feel pressure from a group to be a particular way. Often small groups build similar levels of trust over time, but it is the time and the trust that is key.

Of course we don't ignore it. But it's much more effective to question it gently, to help people recognise why the views they have held have been unhealthy, and to help them explore options in their thinking, than to yell at them and tell them they should think just like you.

Paul himself wrote to the Romans that they must "be transformed by the renewing of their minds." I believe we are speaking of much the same thing; you are speaking of abandoning false traditions etc. and I am saying that part of that is learning to think in new ways, and both of these relate to what Paul said about renewing our minds. Otherwise we simply persist in our old patterns of thought and habits of behaviour.

Paul wrote of "forms of leadership" (1 Corinthians 12:28), and I used that term because whether a church has a group of elders or a board or a parish council or whatever, every church has some sort of group which deals with practical matters and leads the mission of that church.

This thread would suggest otherwise. It's a pretty blunt attack from you.

Not in quite the same way you might encounter it today, but there were gatherings with a structure around Scripture, teaching, and a primitive form of communion, with recognised roles taken by authorised people. Much of that was carried over from synagogue services. It would be a mistake to read the NT and conclude that folks were basically having a potluck and a nice time of fellowship without any liturgical structure at all.

The only way I would disagree with you here is that I see Scripture placing no limits on the gifting and ministry of women.

I don't disagree. The only point I was making was that to consider only the formal worship gatherings was a mistake, because in all the rest of the week - the small groups, the administration, the teaching, the visiting of the sick, whatever good works that local church does - in all of those things people exercise their gifts, and that is necessary for the whole picture. The gathering or service is not the sum total of ministry or giftedness in a church.

I'm not saying don't teach what God sends you t speak. I'm talking about how you treat people.

And this is the accusation I reject. Nobody is prevented from walking in the gifts God gives them, except in those places where women are hindered because of sexism and misogyny.

Then you are wrong. In fact I have done such a thing (not perhaps in those exact words, but in similar terms). And this is a good example of people needing to learn to think in new ways, because the response from the congregation was overwhelmingly negative, including some people refusing to return unless I were to revert to a "traditional" sermon. They were not ready.

Again, I am not attacking anyone. But here's a question I have, after reading all your posts so far. Why have you never sought a recognised leadership role in any of these churches? You claim a God-given mandate to act in that way, why have you never sought to have the church discern and authorise that ministry? Why always act from the outside or the margins?

I have been planting churches for a while. Way back I was recognized, ordained by the gathering we worked mostly with along with another brother abs then another two elders. There were about four elders. But that was my local eldership oversight with others. I was then and am itinerant in ministry as well. I often work with other brothers in this. I have an apostolic ministry. And remember my understanding of oversight/elders is different than yours, I stuck close to the scripture and Paul’s order from God in this area.

There is a lot you don’t know about my work and ministering and the churches gathered in homes we helped with.
Part of my ministering was also street preaching and gathering the saints together in God”s order.
But I was a local Elder for about 16 years.

Paidiske · Jan 17, 2022

And yet you claim to visit churches which you don't join, and seek to set them in order. I am questioning why you will not work within the processes of those churches to have your leadership and ministry appropriately discerned and authorised.

I am ordained in one church; that gives me no authority in any other church.

Archivist · Jan 18, 2022

LoveofTruth said:
Yes sorry fir the typos I use my phone sometimes snd the k is right beside the L

and no worries, I won’t join” a church that ordains women over the men. God would not be pleased. But I have visited places that have a single woman over all. I tried to help them, but…

Maybe they don’t want your help because they know that what they are doing is in accordance with God’s Word. Just because you get a certain answer from scripture doesn’t mean that is the only answer, nor does it mean that your interpretation is correct.

Strong in Him · Jan 18, 2022

LoveofTruth said:
If you read all my words in this post you will see that I show women can minister in the measure and order of God. But part of that order is that they submit to thier husbands

Some women don't have a husband, and might even say that it was God's will for them to be single.

LoveofTruth said:
abs do not usurp authority over the man

What exactly does "usurp authority over a man" mean?

As it is GOD who has, and gives, all authority, and that male clergy sometimes recognise that God given authority, and that he calls women to preach and be ordained, how can a woman usurp - violently grab - that authority?

LoveofTruth said:
and they do not judge and teach over men,

So why did God appoint Deborah to be a judge and prophetess?
Why did male priests choose to consult Huldah, rather than a male prophet, to give them a word from the Lord?
Why did Jesus choose a woman to be the first witness to the resurrection, go into a roomful of men and tell them the Good News? He didn't even appear first to his disciples, or the disciple whom he loved; he chose a woman.

LoveofTruth said:
But I show much of what women can do in the body, they can function greatly .

Yes.
We can function greatly when we are allowed to do what God calls us to do. And for some, that means preaching, teaching or ordination.

LoveofTruth · Jan 18, 2022

LoveofTruth said:
I have been planting churches for a while. Way back I was recognized, ordained by the gathering we worked mostly with along with another brother abs then another two elders. There were about four elders. But that was my local eldership oversight with others. I was then and am itinerant in ministry as well. I often work with other brothers in this. I have an apostolic ministry. And remember my understanding of oversight/elders is different than yours, I stuck close to the scripture and Paul’s order from God in this area.

There is a lot you don’t know about my work and ministering and the churches gathered in homes we helped with.
Part of my ministering was also street preaching and gathering the saints together in God”s order.
But I was a local Elder for about 16 years.

here.

LoveofTruth · Jan 18, 2022

Paidiske said:
And yet you claim to visit churches which you don't join, and seek to set them in order. I am questioning why you will not work within the processes of those churches to have your leadership and ministry appropriately discerned and authorised.

I am ordained in one church; that gives me no authority in any other church.

Again I disagree strongly with your idea of authority in the body.
And 16 years is a long time to be discerned.we also had about six or seven churches in the Homes. I was an itinerant worker as well a local elder among other elders at that time. We see Peter was a local elder 1 Peter 5:1, and yet he had itinerant work in other places at times. Paul visited to churches he planted and ones he didn’t at times to help with many things. He sent Timothy and Titus (apostolic workers) to visit other churches to set things in order that were lacking snd other things as well.

many churches today do not understand apostolic wirk and messengers of the churches.

And when Paul visited the church in Jerusalem (which he did not plant) he had to withstand Peter face to face before all there. But they did give him the right hand of fellowship when they discerned his ministry . I also give testimony of myself and the gospel snd have been given the right hand of fellowship as a believer among many places. Paul also ministered you some who did not discern his ministry and had to warn against false oversight among them (2 Cor 11, abs Acts 20, etc).

…and I told you before that I had a call to go abs minister where God led me. I would often hear the Lord say to me “I have work for you to do”. Then I would wait and a door would open that no man could shut.

an example of this, was as I was preaching in the city in the chief place of concourse, I met another man and a few others from the assembly they were gathering in. He called himself “pastor”. He heard me preach snd talked with me. He was encouraged and gave the right hand of fellowship and we worked together in preaching at times. Then he asked if I would come and speak at thr church where he was in oversight. I said yes snd when I went there I saw that they walked not in the order of God and when I got up to speak I shared about abs taught about the church snd body ministry and other aspects of revelation and prophecy. They received me gladly and in a short time the pulpit was taken down all the chairs put in rows of a circle where all could share and sing and testify to one another. This went on fir a long time. Although they did not go into homes and remained in the building.

but I would go where the Lord sent me.
The churches for the most part are not walking in the order of God and there is great division among many groups as you must be aware today. Because of the great divisions and confusion Christ sends workers from smith out at times. Many churches are not functioning the way they should where they are eager to receive strangers and hear their testimony and where we can work together and they would then come to know those who labour among them in the Lord by their word and their life testimony.

So for me to enter into a assembly (knowing what the Lord has shown me) and to see a one man or woman dominating over the church where none can use their gifts and edify each other and to say that I should have “joined” them, is not the way God led me. I was not to join their error but in love to help my brothers and sisters and to speak what the Lord sent me to speak on. The Lord would speak to me many times as I waited snd ministered and I was told that the Pastors , so called, that I was encountering would not receive me but others would.

Many times when I was sent to a place I would go in and be a part of the thing they called “Bible studies”. I would wait and as I was listening , so many times they were talking about 1 Corinthians 12 and 24. And I would even be asked to share if I had s as by comments on these chapters. I marvelled at the grave of God and how he opened doors for me.

So again you are not accurate in judgement of me.

LoveofTruth · Jan 18, 2022

Strong in Him said:
Some women don't have a husband, and might even say that it was God's will for them to be single.

What exactly does "usurp authority over a man" mean?

As it is GOD who has, and gives, all authority, and that male clergy sometimes recognise that God given authority, and that he calls women to preach and be ordained, how can a woman usurp - violently grab - that authority?

So why did God appoint Deborah to be a judge and prophetess?
Why did male priests choose to consult Huldah, rather than a male prophet, to give them a word from the Lord?
Why did Jesus choose a woman to be the first witness to the resurrection, go into a roomful of men and tell them the Good News? He didn't even appear first to his disciples, or the disciple whom he loved; he chose a woman.

Yes.
We can function greatly when we are allowed to do what God calls us to do. And for some, that means preaching, teaching or ordination.

You said God makes “clergy”. No, there is no such thing as a “clergy” and “laity” division in scripture. Simply mature brothers recognized as elders in the plural in every church.

And as far as women prophetesses I addressed this many times in this post snd I believe in my first post here. You may want to read that to understand what I say here.
A woman when she has prophecy is not speaking of herself but the Lord directly speaks through her. Do it is not so much her that speaks but the Lord. This is different than a teacher. The prophet has an immediate unction the teacher has a unction but may share the truth he has at any time as God leads.

By the way I highly value every woman saint in the churches. They are so valuable and precious in the Lord. I have met many godly saints who are women and who have had testimony , revelation, teaching younger women, and many other things.

Archivist · Jan 18, 2022

LoveofTruth said:
You said God makes “clergy”. No, there is no such thing as a “clergy” and “laity” division in scripture. Simply mature brothers recognized as elders in the plural in every church.

And as far as women prophetesses I addressed this many times in this post snd I believe in my first post here. You may want to read that to understand what I say here.
A woman when she has prophecy is not speaking of herself but the Lord directly speaks through her. Do it is not so much her that speaks but the Lord. This is different than a teacher. The prophet has an immediate unction the teacher has a unction but may share the truth he has at any time as God leads.

By the way I highly value every woman saint in the churches. They are so valuable and precious in the Lord. I have met many godly saints who are women and who have had testimony , revelation, teaching younger women, and many other things.

The sad thing is that you have missed out on having wonderful women in leadership roles. My church has had two excellent female pastors over the years. Several of our church council presidents have been female as have many of our council members. When I was president of church council a majority of council members were female. We have had numerous female teachers.

pescador · Jan 18, 2022

LoveofTruth said:
I ask you are you a make or female? Paul speaks of “in Chist”. He also speaks of men and women’s roles all through the NT in the natural. There is distinctions in make and female in the natural world and yet in Christ women can prophesy and testify etc.read my first post.

these two aspects are so clear in scripture I marvel that you miss it . And the woman is a type of the church the man is a type of Christ. This presentation to the world is a type of our relationship with Christ or it should be.

here is just one of many many scriptures where Paul refers to make and female in the order and natural world and their presentation in such roles to others.

“ Ephesians 5: 22. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.”

now could a Christian wife say to her husband in relation to these verses that , no she doesn’t have to do that because there is no male or female in Christ?

I think you should re-examine what you believe in this area.

How convenient to leave out Ephesians 5:25-28, "Husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself for her to sanctify her by cleansing her with the washing of the water by the word, so that he may present the church to himself as glorious—not having a stain or wrinkle, or any such blemish, but holy and blameless. In the same way husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

I think you should re-examine what you believe in this area.

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