Did Jesus have faith? (Note: I have an answer, but I am curious as to what others have to say).

Did Jesus have faith?

  • I don’t know.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other (Please explain).

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    19

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟36,927.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
So if Jesus had faith in the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Such as God the Father, and heaven), then this means He cannot recall or remember (i.e. He does not have any memory) of God the Father, Heaven, etcetera. Is that what you believe? That Jesus does not have any memory of God and Heaven during His earthly ministry?
I assume you are asking yourself these questions, as you are the only one who has so stated.
This is not a response to what I posted. I won't post anymore, since your responses are only
avoiding my points. You don't get to make them for me by posing questions that have no
bearing on my statements. They come from the imagination of your own heart.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
This is how I know. This not from my hard drive.

I remember having hard drives back in the 90’s and early 2000’s. I believe hard drives are obsolete for normal every day internet users today. But everybody has their own preference (and they are free to do as they wish of course). I prefer online storage because it something that is more in common use today and it prevents loss of data. For I had drives fail on me in the past. Today, free online storage is better and better on the budget.

Anyways, are you implying that storing notes on our writings for the Lord is a bad thing? If so, t
here is nothing wrong in you doing so if you do, or if I do, or another brother does so. For that would mean you would have to condemn every Christian book author and every Christian forum user out there (if such were the case). But I am hoping this is not the case.

You said:
This was spoken into my
heart, and not word that was given have I omitted.
Isaiah 42:1 Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom
My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

There is nothing in this verse that says Jesus had faith.

You said:
Matthew 12:18 Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen, My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased! I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He will declare judgment to the Gentiles.

There is nothing in this verse that says Jesus had faith.


You said:
John 1:
32 And John bore witness, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove,
and He remained upon Him.
33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me,
Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is
He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.
34 And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.

Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be
tempted by the devil.

Luke 4:14 Then Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and
news of Him went out through all the surrounding region.

1 John 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk
just as He walked.

None of these verses imply Jesus had faith. Just because Jesus obeyed the Father does not prove He had faith. Just because Jesus was limited in knowledge, does not mean He had faith, either. Granted, if Jesus was so limited in knowledge to the point where He had NO MEMORY of God the Father, and NO MEMORY of Heaven, then that would be another story. But the Scriptures do not suggest or imply that Jesus had zero memory of seeing God the Father and zero memory in what Heaven was like.

For Hebrews 11:1 says that faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. So how exactly did Jesus have the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen?

You said:
What is clearly seen by the testimony of the scriptures is that Jesus walked in
the Spirit He was given, not in accordance with some "walk through" that took
place in heaven before He was born.

Jesus pre-existed as the Eternal Word (second person of the Trinity) before He was physically born as a human. Are you saying that His memory was wiped out when He became human?

You said:
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you,
He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through
His Spirit who dwells in you.

Galatians 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Jesus walked in the Spirit He was given.
We are instructed to walk in "the same Spirit", which we are given,
which we receive when we believe in the One who sent His Son, and
raised Him from the dead.
We are instructed to walk by faith, not by sight.
We are instructed to walk just as He walked, after the Spirit we are given.

Galatians 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon
the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of
the Spirit through faith.

To walk by faith as faithful Abraham
Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place
which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out,
not knowing where he was going.

And yet you say that Jesus did not walk by faith, that He always knew where He was
going because He is God.
You said:
So how are we to walk as He walked?
He walked in the Spirit. We are to walk in the same Spirit.

2 Corinthians 4:
13 And since we have the same spirit of faith, according to what is written,
I believed and therefore I spoke,” we also believe and therefore speak,
14 knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus,
and will present us with you.
There are points of taking the analogy too far. If we are to literally walk as Christ walked in every way and respect than that means we must also have others worship us as God, too. We must also attempt to try in re-enact the same exact miracles as He did by trying to walk on water every day. But I don’t think that is what the apostles were talking about. They were referring to Christ’s holy or moral conduct only. The faith equation for Jesus just does not apply because God cannot have faith in God. Just as we cannot walk like Christ can walk in regards to His deity. We are not deity. We are only mortal flesh and blood humans and we always will be that way. We will not become gods or deity. That would be Mormonism.

Side Note:

A couple of posts back you said that faith is not a belief but it is about receiving. I have proven that this is demonstrably false according to the Bible. Hebrews 11:1 gives us the definition of faith. But you and everyone here has not been able to prove how this definition works with what Jesus actually said or by the words of His followers.
 
Last edited:
  • Prayers
Reactions: Mr. M
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I assume you are asking yourself these questions, as you are the only one who has so stated.
This is not a response to what I posted. I won't post anymore, since your responses are only
avoiding my points. You don't get to make them for me by posing questions that have no
bearing on my statements. They come from the imagination of your own heart.

No offense, but I believe you cannot explain your belief because it cannot be explained according to Scripture. But if I am wrong, I would like for you to honestly explain by Scripture how Jesus clearly had hope in the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. If you cannot demonstrate that with clear verses, then your position is bankrupt according to the Bible, brother.

I mean, don’t do it for me. Do it to help another brother or sister in Christ who happens along this thread. But we both know that you are not able to do that. No verse actually says that Jesus has faith except the Modern bibles that come from Westcott, Hort, and or the Vatican.

No verse even implies it. Jesus never said things like:

Father, I hope in you.”
“Father I hope to actually see you one day.” “I cannot remember what you look like.”
“Father I hope to see Heaven because I don’t remember seeing it as you said to me.”

I just don’t see that kind of stuff in Scripture.

Remember the rule. Hebrews 11:1. That’s the REAL definition of faith. Does your version of faith for Jesus line up with the Bible’s definition on faith? If so, please prove it with the Bible, brother.
 
  • Optimistic
Reactions: Mr. M
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟36,927.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
No offense, but I believe you cannot explain your belief because it cannot be explained according to Scripture. But if I am wrong, I would like for you to honestly explain by Scripture how Jesus clearly had hope in the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. If you cannot demonstrate that with clear verses, then your position is bankrupt according to the Bible, brother.
Try again. I discussed Hebrews 11:1 in a previous post, which you dodged.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for,
the evidence of things not seen.
"hoped for" =elpizo [G1679] =trust,
as in:Matthew 12:21 And in His name Gentiles will trust.
Thereby defining faith more correctly as to believe in without doubt,
anchored in complete trust.
Hebrews 11:1 was not
an attempt to provide a unique and solitary definition of faith.
We don't comprehend gospel truth by coming up with a single definition, but by
considering the entire Bible presentation of faith, hope, love, trust.
Do you place your trust in dictionaries, or "every word that has proceeded from the
mouth of God". Honestly, a dictionary is the work of man.
One statement by the writer of Hebrews does not define faith.
How about the delicate balance between Paul and James.
Do you believe that faith without works is dead?
Jesus and the apostles did not impart faith simply by words, but by actions;
as "in all signs and wonders".
Did Jesus demonstrate complete trust in His Father?
How about when He walked on water?
And when Peter failed, He asked "where is your faith?"
Actions taken with complete trust in what you have placed your hope on,
without doubting, is to walk by faith, even on water.

Now that is a definition of faith also, allowing many scriptures to contribute
to our knowledge thereof, and consistent with Hebrew 11:1, which only works
when you provide an explanation for "substance". Have you? It is very interesting.
Then this will make more sense:
2 Timothy 1:6 Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you
through the laying on of my hands.

Because "substance" is sentiment. You have heard of "settling on the lees"?
2 Peter 1:13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up
by putting you in remembrance;
Jesus came and showed us trust hope and love by real, yet miraculous
actions, because He had the Spirit without measure. Because He placed
complete trust in His Father, showing us the Way, the Truth, and the Life....in Him.
"We can be perfect, even as our Father is perfect", only with the faith, hope,
trust, and love that that we are given in Christ. We love, because He first loved,
for God is Love. We walk by faith when we walk in the Spirit that is given, from
which we receive the faith of Jesus Christ. When we walk by faith, we walk
just "as He walked". 1 John 2:6
You should notice that the longer I sit here and type under the anointing,
the more we receive, and for us to consider what the Spirit is saying to us. I am
not consulting a "database or reference", I am receiving in "the spirit of my mind",
then looking up the scriptures to make sure that I am quoting accurately, or then
cut and paste the scripture references that I am receiving by the Voice of the Spirit.
This is my morning devotional, and what I receive,
I present unto you... 1 Corinthians 11:23
Hebrews 6:
17
Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise
the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath,
18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie,
we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of
the hope set before us.
19
This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast,
and which enters the Presence behind the veil,
20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become
High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Out of bankruptcy.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: sawdust
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟36,927.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
There is nothing in this verse that says Jesus had faith.
To say "those scriptures don't mention faith, is to ignore the
foundation of walking by faith, in the Spirit.
Try reading those scriptures again, and you will see that
Isaiah 42:1 promises that the Chosen One would be given a Spirit to bring
judgment to the nations.
Matthew 12:8 Quotes Isaiah 42:1 to confirm that this is Jesus Christ.
The account of the Lord's baptism show that He received the Spirit
in which He was to walk.
The other scriptures clearly state that He was led by the Spirit that
He had received, here on earth at His baptism.
He was led by the Spirit, not foreknowledge from before He came
to earth. He taught that we could do the same if we abide in the
Spirit that we are given. The SAME SPIRIT is the allos paracletos.
This is a Trinitarian Theological daydream.
"Okay, Jesus is the second person of the trinity, right? The Son of God,
okay, but He is also God, okay, so if He is God then He is omniscient, right?
Okay, so Jesus already knew everything, so He really didn't need to
be led by the Spirit, those scriptures mean something else, right? Okay.

Jeremiah 23:
28 The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream;
And he who has My word, let him speak My word faithfully.
What is the chaff to the wheat? says the Lord.
29 Is not My word like a fire? says the Lord,
And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: sawdust
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟36,927.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
A lesson on "imparted faith" in action.
Matthew 10:1 And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him,
He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal
all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease
.

The Lord did not command the 12 to "go out and cast out spirits and
heal all kinds of sickness and disease."
The text says that He gave them "power and authority."

Luke 9:1 Then He called His twelve disciples together and gave them power and authority
over all demons, and to cure diseases.
This was not a test of faith, it was a test of obedience. If the Lord had already given them
all power and authority, all they had to do was obey.

They already believed that He had the "words of Life".
Now the Lord wanted them to see
faith in action.
Again, the gift is received by the believer. He activates (stirs up) that gift,

when he acts in obedience. In the same way the Lord, who had the Spirit
without measure, was able to exercise "all power and authority"
given to Him by obedience. That is how faith works. That is how we walk
as He walked. He walked in the Spirit He was given by obedience. The disciples
worked miracles by obedience, activating the "power and authority" they had
already been given before they left His side. As we must also learn to do.

Hebrews 5:
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
9
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

Romans 1:
5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith
among all nations for His name,
6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ.
 
Upvote 0

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Supporter
May 15, 2008
9,486
3,322
✟858,457.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Jesus had power as God during His earthly ministry:

1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).
2. Hebrews 1:3 talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.
3. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later (John 2:19).
4. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6).
5 Jesus had power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).
6. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today.
7. Jesus knew men's thoughts (Matthew 9:4) (Matthew 12:25) (Mark 2:8) (Luke 5:22) (Luke 6:8) (Luke 9:47) (Luke 24:38).
8. Jesus knew about the lives of others (John 2:24) (John 4:17-18) (John 4:29) (John 6:64).

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

that is faith in the Father

I shouldn’t have to do so. It should be obvious to a believer that Modern Bibles are corrupt or tainted and the King James Bible stands above them. This topic discussion only proves the superiority of God’s true Word over the false ones. The Modern Bibles want you to think Jesus is just like us in every way. Yes. Jesus is human. No doubt about it. But Jesus was not a sinner like the rest of humanity (if he was to be like us in every way). For Hebrews 7:26 says Jesus is holy, undefined, and separate from sinners. Even the Modern bibles say that. But the point here is that they push the agenda that Jesus has faith. This is why you believe the way you do.

leave the conspiracies out of this, it's an unpopular view and you know that. That position is a minority so you have to make those conditions explicit to be fair to anyone participating. if you continue down this path I won't be replying, sorry for the ultimatum but this is a digressed subject and insincere to the OP, had you been clear in the OP regarding preconditions I would have never posted anything.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
One could also say faith is putting your trust in someone else to do something for you instead of doing it yourself.
Jesus many times trusted the Father with everything in his life. If you are never doing your own will but doing what someone else tells you to do, you are putting your faith in their decisions plain and simple. Now this may or may not be the truth but possibly on the cross when Jesus took our sins he may have had to rely on the other 2 persons of God in his death, burial, and resurrection to "restore" him to glory.
Another definition of faith..... is believing in someone else, Jesus believed in the Father. I also believe that Jesus put aside his deity and as living as a "normal" man he put his faith in the Father, the angels, and the Holy Spirit for his protection throughout his earthly life so he would be rightly considered a valid, legal sacrifice on the cross.
Now either Jesus was all knowing his entire life or he wasn't. I consider things not seen as two types: Things in the future that have not come to pass, and things outside our realm of understanding in this life. In the case of earthly happenstance if Jesus was never surprised I would be more likely to admit that he needed no faith as everything has already been "seen" and nothing would be unexpected or "not seen" however since there was things unexpected and he actually prayed to the Father which we believers do by faith because prayer is IMO by faith itself we are "hoping" for things, and praying for things that are "not seen" yet to happen.

To put it simply Jesus had faith in the Father and that is by scripture. pleasing.

I believe what we read in Scripture about the Father and Son has to do more with connection they had in that they exist with the Holy Spirit as the triune God rather than Jesus trusting the Father by faith. Jesus said He seen the Father. Jesus said He is one with the Father. Jesus said He is in the Father, and the Father is in Him. It was not like Jesus was hoping He was doing right thing or He was walking with no previous memory of the Father or He zero idea of the future. Jesus even spoke of His death and resurrection with His disciples (Although they did not get it). When Jesus asked if there was another way, Jesus did not hope He was doing the right thing after that. For Jesus said to the Father, let your will be done. Jesus knew He was doing the right thing. There was no hope in that He was maybe getting it right. Jesus was 100% certain of God the Father because He is one with Him.
 
Upvote 0

Sophrosyne

Let Your Light Shine.. Matt 5:16
Jun 21, 2007
163,213
64,206
In God's Amazing Grace
✟895,522.00
Faith
Christian
I believe what we read in Scripture about the Father and Son has to do more with connection they had in that they exist with the Holy Spirit as the triune God rather than Jesus trusting the Father by faith. Jesus said He seen the Father. Jesus said He is one with the Father. Jesus said He is in the Father, and the Father is in Him. It was not like Jesus was hoping He was doing right thing or He was walking with no previous memory of the Father or He zero idea of the future. Jesus even spoke of His death and resurrection with His disciples (Although they did not get it). When Jesus asked if there was another way, Jesus did not hope He was doing the right thing after that. For Jesus said to the Father, let your will be done. Jesus knew He was doing the right thing. There was no hope in that He was maybe getting it right. Jesus was 100% certain of God the Father because He is one with Him.
The problem is that God had never been a man before and likewise Jesus may have never put aside his deity and grown up as a child through to adulthood we have no clue as to how that felt and we know that Jesus grew with wisdom as he aged, but that would mean that he truly didn't know things that an all wise God would know.
Herein lies the problem in that one can try there best to equate the relationship and conditions of being both God and Man at the same time but we can only guess what it was truly like.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

that is faith in the Father

If Jesus really had faith, then why is He not in the heroes of faith chapter?
Why is this not more clearly explained in the rest of Scripture?

Faith is a test for man and not God.

Think about it like this. Before the world began, we know the Word (second person of the Trinity) was 100% aware that His mission would be a success. By the time the Word was made flesh, we know that His Omniscience was suppressed. But I do not see Jesus as having full and complete amnesia as to who He is or His past, though. One thing that should not be in doubt is that Jesus fully knew He was God and one with the Father. So this erases any need for Him to have faith.

So these words in Matthew 24:36 are for us to trust by faith because we are not God. God cannot doubt Himself. God cannot have faith in Himself. God cannot test Himself. Any person of the Godhead whether they are aware of the words or not by the other person of the Trinity would not need to hope the other’s words are true by the other person of the Godhead. The Godhead does not need to trust in the invisible things that are unseen as if His own words might fail or may not be true. God has already declared the end from the beginning already (Isaiah 46:10). See, the issue you do not understand is connectivity. You think the connection between God the Father and Jesus is at a level whereby Jesus is walking sight unseen by faith like we are. This is simply not what we read in Scripture. Jesus was not walking around in the dark wondering what to do next or hoping that the Father’s words would turn out to be true. Jesus was not hoping to see the Father (because He never remembered what He looked like). There was no hope for Jesus in God the Father’s words. Jesus did not doubt His mission and neither was Jesus tested to see if He was going to pass or fail. There was no doubt that Jesus was going to do what the Father said. He might have asked if there was another way (because Jesus Omniscience was suppressed), but He never showed any doubt or show of faith like Abraham, Noah, Moses, etcetera. Again, Jesus is God and He did not need to believe in God the Father because He is one with God the Father, and the Father is in Him. When asked by the disciples to see the Father, Jesus rebuked them because Jesus was trying to say they already seen the Father through Him. 1 Timothy 3:16 says, God was manifest in the flesh. Yet, some of your Modern bibles says, “He was manifest in the flesh.” So it de-emphasizes the deity of Christ (Just as you are doing).

You said:
leave the conspiracies out of this, it's an unpopular view and you know that. That position is a minority so you have to make those conditions explicit to be fair to anyone participating. if you continue down this path I won't be replying, sorry for the ultimatum but this is a digresses subject and insincere to the OP, had you been clear in the OP regarding preconditions I would have never posted anything.

I cherish God’s words (the Bible), and for me, this really is a bible issue. If you believed Psalms 12:6-7 was 100% true in the KJB, you would understand where I am coming from.

For it is written:

“If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?” (Psalms 11:3).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The problem is that God had never been a man before and likewise Jesus may have never put aside his deity and grown up as a child through to adulthood we have no clue as to how that felt and we know that Jesus grew with wisdom as he aged, but that would mean that he truly didn't know things that an all wise God would know.
Herein lies the problem in that one can try there best to equate the relationship and conditions of being both God and Man at the same time but we can only guess what it was truly like.

Jesus did not put aside His deity as if He ever lost it. If such was the case, He could not be worshipped by others. In fact, the idea that Jesus put aside His deity is the lie fed to us by Modern Bibles or Modern scholars. The Scriptures clearly teach that Jesus had power during His earthly ministry.

Jesus had power as God during His earthly ministry:

1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).
2. Hebrews 1:3 talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.
3. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later (John 2:19).
4. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6).
5 Jesus had power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).
6. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today.
So what do you make of these above verses?
 
Upvote 0

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Supporter
May 15, 2008
9,486
3,322
✟858,457.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Yet, some of your Modern bibles says, “He was manifest in the flesh.” So it de-emphasizes the deity of Christ (Just as you are doing).
Some of "your" modern Bibles? Really?! I warned you and instead you decide to insult me. I'm afriad I'm unable to continue this conversation.
 
Upvote 0

Sophrosyne

Let Your Light Shine.. Matt 5:16
Jun 21, 2007
163,213
64,206
In God's Amazing Grace
✟895,522.00
Faith
Christian
Jesus did not put aside His deity as if He ever lost it. If such was the case, He could not be worshipped by others. In fact, the idea that Jesus put aside His deity is the lie fed to us by Modern Bibles or Modern scholars. The Scriptures clearly teach that Jesus had power during His earthly ministry.

Jesus had power as God during His earthly ministry:

1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).
2. Hebrews 1:3 talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.
3. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later (John 2:19).
4. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6).
5 Jesus had power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).
6. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today.
So what do you make of these above verses?
Setting aside power doesn't mean you don't have power it just means you can but are not using it.
The scriptures equate he could instantly take up his power (as God) and done whatever he pleased but he always did the Father's will and scripture equates he was not operating as God through his ministry but as an agent of the Father I believe empowered and filled with the Holy Spirit. This would make it possible for him to be a man while God and live with all the weaknesses of being a man including temptation and pain and suffering which as God he could easily block out the pain on the cross that he suffered with and make it so the whips on his back did no damage at all and not need to pray to the Father at all, he would automatically know what to do etc.
No I stand with him setting aside his deity, one can still have the authority and title and position of power and plainly decide not to use it at all but rely on someone else to support and guide them and have faith in that person.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Some of "your" modern Bibles? Really?! I warned you and instead you decide to insult me. I'm afriad I'm unable to continue this conversation.

I was not insulting you, but I was insulting what I believe is a wrong belief. I was referring to the fact that you most likely own several Modern bible translations and how you look to several of them to get meaning, and I was not referring to the fact that you created Modern bible translations. If a person believes in the religion of the Bible school thought of “Originals Only,” and or in following Modern Scholarship to get the meaning instead of making one Word of God as one’s perfect word of authority, then that person must look to modern bibles and modern scholarship to build their faith because one has to believe their footnotes, commentaries, and expert work in laying a new altered Greek text every few years on manuscripts they believe are better.

My bible does not radically change in certain verses every few years. So my approach is different to God’s Word. I believe there is an actual book of the Lord that exists today that I can call the book of the Lord so as to read from because that is what Scripture says (Isaiah 34:16). Yet, in the Modern bible translation camp, they believe no perfect bible exists anywhere on Earth (Which is a statement of a belief by faith). So in this kind of belief: The scholar and or the Christian has to decide what is in God’s Word and what is not. They get to pick and choose what they want to believe by faith in the Bible. Therein lies the problem. In fact, I believe many modern bibles are slightly tainted or corrupted. Hence, why I believe we differ on this topic. In fact, the deity of Christ is watered down in Modern bibles. This concerns me greatly that I see tons of beloved verses that reflect the deity of Christ as being altered in modern bibles.

Anyways, I bring this topic up because Originals Only Christians tend to believe Jesus had faith. When a person who believes in a perfect Bible that exists today does not tend to believe that way. Granted, this is not always the case. But the point here is that the Modern bibles in Hebrews 12:2 clearly teaches that Jesus has faith when the KJB does not directly teach this. This can and has influenced many Christians who follow Modern scholarship to believe that Jesus had faith. That’s simply my point.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Setting aside power doesn't mean you don't have power it just means you can but are not using it.
The scriptures equate he could instantly take up his power (as God) and done whatever he pleased but he always did the Father's will and scripture equates he was not operating as God through his ministry but as an agent of the Father I believe empowered and filled with the Holy Spirit. This would make it possible for him to be a man while God and live with all the weaknesses of being a man including temptation and pain and suffering which as God he could easily block out the pain on the cross that he suffered with and make it so the whips on his back did no damage at all and not need to pray to the Father at all, he would automatically know what to do etc.
No I stand with him setting aside his deity, one can still have the authority and title and position of power and plainly decide not to use it at all but rely on someone else to support and guide them and have faith in that person.

If a comic book fan told another comic fan in how Superman set aside his powers, there is a chance that one of them might think of Superman 2 the movie (starring Christopher Reeve) whereby Superman gave up his powers to live with Lois Lane as an ordinary human. In this movie, he set aside or gave up his powers for a time. In other words, your wording does not reflect what you are believing now.

But did Jesus use His powers while on Earth? Yes. He did.

John 5:21
“For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Carefully read this above verse very slowly. Does it sound like Jesus is referring to how He is refraining from using His power in raising up the dead as the Father does? I don’t get that impression while reading this verse. Jesus says these words in context to after healing the man at the pool of Bethesda with the Jews getting upset over this healing because he did it on the Sabbath. In other words, Jesus made alive the use of the man’s legs. Jesus used HIS POWER.

Go back and read John chapter 5 in the King James Bible here at Biblehub.com very slowly and carefully before replying back to me.

I could keep going on the other points I gave to you, but this should be sufficient to disprove the idea that Jesus did not use His own power or deity while on Earth. The Modern bibles and Modern scholarship does not want you to believe Jesus had power. This is because Modern bibles water down the deity of Christ.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
To say "those scriptures don't mention faith, is to ignore the
foundation of walking by faith, in the Spirit.
Try reading those scriptures again, and you will see that
Isaiah 42:1 promises that the Chosen One would be given a Spirit to bring
judgment to the nations.
Matthew 12:8 Quotes Isaiah 42:1 to confirm that this is Jesus Christ.
The account of the Lord's baptism show that He received the Spirit
in which He was to walk.
The other scriptures clearly state that He was led by the Spirit that
He had received, here on earth at His baptism.
He was led by the Spirit, not foreknowledge from before He came
to earth. He taught that we could do the same if we abide in the
Spirit that we are given. The SAME SPIRIT is the allos paracletos.
This is a Trinitarian Theological daydream.
"Okay, Jesus is the second person of the trinity, right? The Son of God,
okay, but He is also God, okay, so if He is God then He is omniscient, right?
Okay, so Jesus already knew everything, so He really didn't need to
be led by the Spirit, those scriptures mean something else, right? Okay.

Jeremiah 23:
28 The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream;
And he who has My word, let him speak My word faithfully.
What is the chaff to the wheat? says the Lord.
29 Is not My word like a fire? says the Lord,
And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?

Again, just because the Spirit was upon Jesus and guided by the Spirit does not mean that He is walking by faith like we do in the fact that we walk by the Spirit. Again, that’s a large leap of assumption. One could make the same assumption about how we are to follow Christ’s example in that they need to re-create Christ’s miracles to the exact detail and live exactly in every way and respect the very life He did (Which is simply not possible because we are not Christ). We merely follow the moral conduct of Christ. So this again is not proof of how Jesus has faith. This is yet another leap of assumption being made.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. That is how Hebrews 11:1 defines faith.

Did Jesus never see God the Father or never recall seeing Him?
Did Jesus never see Heaven and or never recall seeing Heaven?
Are we led to believe that God could ever doubt Himself and or test Himself as if He could potentially fail? See, faith is a test for man. A test to see if man will believe or not. Faith justifies us before God and it deals with our salvation. Jesus did not need salvation because He is salvation and eternal life. Some say that without faith it is impossible to please God as if Jesus needed to have this in order to please God the Father. I don’t believe this is the case because the Eternal Logos or Word would have naturally pleased the Father because they are one. The triune Godhead exists in harmony and is not fractured. The Incarnation did not change the Trinity.

Many in Christendom falsely think Christ was alone on the cross as He was dealing with redeeming our sins. But 2 Corinthians 5:19 says,

“To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation” (2 Corinthians 5:19).

So God the Father was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. He was not alone. This is because Jesus said He is one with the Father (John 10:30). By your words: You give me the impression that you want to fracture this connection they have and act like Jesus needs to trust in God the Father as if He is a far off or as if He is unseen or unknown to Christ as if Jesus was a man alone and not God. This is not the case (if that is what you believe). Jesus is still the second person of the Godhead or Trinity and His connection is far greater than you imagine while He was here during His earthly ministry, brother.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
A lesson on "imparted faith" in action.
Matthew 10:1 And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him,
He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal
all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease
.

The Lord did not command the 12 to "go out and cast out spirits and
heal all kinds of sickness and disease."
The text says that He gave them "power and authority."

Luke 9:1 Then He called His twelve disciples together and gave them power and authority
over all demons, and to cure diseases.
This was not a test of faith, it was a test of obedience. If the Lord had already given them
all power and authority, all they had to do was obey.

They already believed that He had the "words of Life".
Now the Lord wanted them to see
faith in action.
Again, the gift is received by the believer. He activates (stirs up) that gift,

when he acts in obedience. In the same way the Lord, who had the Spirit
without measure, was able to exercise "all power and authority"
given to Him by obedience. That is how faith works. That is how we walk
as He walked. He walked in the Spirit He was given by obedience. The disciples
worked miracles by obedience, activating the "power and authority" they had
already been given before they left His side. As we must also learn to do.

Hebrews 5:
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
9
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

Romans 1:
5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith
among all nations for His name,
6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ.

Jesus learned obedience because His Omniscience was suppressed but nowhere does Hebrews say that Jesus has faith except in corrupted Modern bibles in Hebrews 12:2.

In Romans 1, Paul is not referring to Jesus here, but he is referring to the Roman Christians in context. He is referring to their obedience to the faith. Yes, I am aware that faith is like a two sided coin. Check out this thread here if you have not seen it.

The Two Sides of the Coin of Faith

But the point here is that faith starts off as a belief in God’s grace for salvation, which then progresses and matures to the obedience of the faith (i.e. faithfulness). But this is something for man because man needs salvation. Faith is the vehicle needed for man so as to be saved. Jesus does not need to be saved and therefore, He does not need faith. Jesus learned obedience. This is true. But he did not learn the obedience of the faith like the Roman Christians did because Jesus is God in the fact that He said He is one with the Father (Making Himself equal with God). We cannot claim we are one with the Father and make ourselves equal with God. Therein lies the difference, my friend.
 
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟36,927.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
One could make the same assumption about how we are to follow Christ’s example in that they need to re-create Christ’s miracles to the exact detail and live exactly in every way and respect the very life He did (Which is simply not possible because we are not Christ).
No, that is ridiculous. If you walk in obedience to the Spirit, The Spirit would determine
what would be expected of you. You would never get to decide on your own, "I think I
will go walk on water today." Besides, the apostles did perform many miracles that Jesus
performed, including raising the dead.
Again, that’s a large leap of assumption.
Not if the same chapter of Hebrews proves men and women of faith by their obedience to
the voice of the Spirit.
Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which
he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
We merely follow the moral conduct of Christ. So this again is not proof of how Jesus has faith.
Okay, so we are under the Law. Try telling that to Paul. No, the scriptures say we are to walk
in the faith of Abraham.
Genesis 26:5 because Abraham obeyed My voice: kept My charge, My commandments,
My statutes, and My laws.
You are saying that the Son of God did not have to obey the Father, because He said
"my Father and I are one", but Jesus could only make that statement if He had surrendered
His will to the Father's will. "not my will but yours be done." We are instructed to do the same.
Psalm 40:
7
Then I said, Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
8 I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart.
 
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟36,927.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Again, just because the Spirit was upon Jesus and guided by the Spirit does not mean that He is walking by faith like we do in the fact that we walk by the Spirit. Again, that’s a large leap of assumption.
No. It is called The Way. "Jesus was led by the Spirit into the witness to be tempted by Satan."
If everything Jesus accomplished was based on His unique relationship to the Father as His Son,
and not by obedience to the Spirit He was given at baptism, then He has taught us nothing.
Jesus took on flesh, which Paul referred to as the veil, in order to destroy that veil.
Jesus' example teaches us that the veil of the flesh is removed when we turn to the Spirit
we have been given, and walk in obedience to that promised Spirit. He walked that Way
Himself, not as the Son of God, but as the son of man.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh, Justified by the Spirit, seen by angels.
Preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory.

Jesus was justified by the Spirit because when He came in the flesh, He was
not in His full glory. He told His disciples they had seen manifestations of His
glory when He performed miracles. Three saw His glory on the mount. Otherwise,
He surrendered His glory to the Will of His Father, as He was directed by the
Spirit that was given. This was His Way on earth, and it is the Way for all
who would walk in the same Way. In obedience to the Spirit given. Since Jesus
teaches that we cannot see the Spirit, but only His manifestations, we therefore
must walk by faith, not by sight. And then we will receive "the evidence of things
not seen". The manifestations are provided for us all. 1 Corinthians 12:7
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟36,927.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Jesus learned obedience because His Omniscience was suppressed but nowhere does Hebrews say that Jesus has faith except in corrupted Modern bibles in Hebrews 12:2.
No, He surrendered ALL His glory, in order to show us the Way as the son of man. This is
much more than "suppressed omniscience". All of His divinity was set aside to accomplish
the condemnation of sinful flesh, while teaching us the obedience of faith, following the Spirit
we are given. His glory was only revealed when miracles occurred as a result of His obedience.

.
Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

And then there was the transfiguration...and the Voice.
The willingness of the Son of God to surrender His glory for us proves His
unwavering trust in His Father. He imparts this to us as we trust in His Word.
This is the faith of the Son of God, the faith by which we can be called sons and
daughters of God.

Romans 8:
3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own
Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh,
but after the Spirit. (Just as He did).

If Jesus provided the Way and the Truth, and the Life as the Son of God, and not
the son of man, He taught us nothing. But if He walked in obedience to the Spirit
He was given, thereby surrendering His will to the Father, then He has taught us
to walk by faith. He did this in the flesh, without the glory He had in heaven, as
He walked the earth in flesh.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory
which I had with thee before the world was.

His glory was fully restored when He ascended back into heaven.
John 20:17 Jesus said to her, Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father;
but go to My brethren and say to them, I am ascending to My Father and your Father, a
nd to My God and your God.


 
Upvote 0