Did Jesus have faith? (Note: I have an answer, but I am curious as to what others have to say).

Bible Highlighter · Jan 17, 2022

DamianWarS said:
the prevailing doctrine is still that Christ was fully God as well as fully human. If we remove his human attributes we take away from his humanity and then he's just a God that came down and pretended to be human, which is Docetism. If it sounds like a paradox it's because it is. God is impassable yet Christ suffered and died on the cross. So we accept these paradoxes without knowing just how they work but knowing how they work is not a condition of them working.

The problem is resolved if you know the definition of faith according to the Bible.

“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1).

Did Jesus have the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen? No. Jesus already seen God the Father, and Heaven (Which are unseen things for us).

Modern bibles corrupted by Westcott, Hort, and the Vatican or Modern Scholarship have led many to falsely believe that Jesus had faith when this is contrary to the plain reading of Scripture in a trusty King James bible that existed hundreds of years before the Modern bibles showed up.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 17, 2022

SkyWriting said:
I think Jesus voluntarily limited his knowledge of future events.
Nobody likes a know-it-all.

Jesus said He is one with the Father (John 10:30).
The Father knew all things.
So are you saying that nobody likes God the Father because He knows all things? I sure hope not, my friend.

I believe Jesus suppressed His knowledge not for the reason as you suggest but so as to be a our substitute for our sins and to die in our place for sin in order to give us salvation.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 17, 2022

SkyWriting said:
That's the same message I've gotten. Very unprofessional.

I have created multiple threads using this disclaimer. This is the first time that I can recall in getting this much flack or heat about it. Personally, I think folks do not have a really good case biblically to make against me on this particular topic involving this thread and so they have to attack something else I said in order to make it seem like they are right. Nowhere in the disclaimer was I suggesting I have all knowledge and or I was not open to what others had to say. Hence, why I was asking. The disclaimer was only added to let folks know that I had an answer to the question. But the title space is limited and I could not keep explaining why in the title and I merely repeated what I wrote in the OP). But if it makes you and other folks feel better, I did reword the disclaimer in this thread and I have started to change the title of my other previous threads that also had this disclaimer.

Anyways, blessings be unto you in the Lord.

DamianWarS · Jan 17, 2022

Bible Highlighter said:
The problem is resolved if you know the definition of faith according to the Bible.

“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1).

Did Jesus have the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen? No. Jesus already seen God the Father, and Heaven (Which are unseen things for us).

Modern bibles corrupted by Westcott, Hort, and the Vatican or Modern Scholarship have led many to falsely believe that Jesus had faith when this is contrary to the plain reading of Scripture in a trusty King James bible that existed hundreds of years before the Modern bibles showed up.

you didn't really answer anything you just blame it on modern translation conspiracies. Here you separate Christ from humanity by saying Christ is incapable of faith because of his divinity. Is Christ not fully human? Did he not see with human eyes? I get the paradox of the divine/human natures but that's not something anyone is challenging here so assuming we all accept Christ is also fully human why are we saying Christ is unable to experience a human condition because of his divinity?

Bible Highlighter · Jan 17, 2022

DamianWarS said:
you didn't really answer anything you just blame it on modern translation conspiracies. Here you separate Christ from humanity by saying Christ is incapable of faith because of his divinity. Is Christ not fully human? Did he not see with human eyes? I get the paradox of the divine/human natures but that's not something anyone is challenging here so assuming we all accept Christ is also fully human why are we saying Christ is unable to experience a human condition because of his divinity?

Questions can be loaded like a baked potato. What matters is what the Scriptures say. I provided also a definition of faith according to the Bible, as well.

Hebrews 11:1
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

Did Jesus have the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen?

Yes, or no?

If yes, can you demonstrate that with Scripture?

For us… the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen would be God, and Heaven, etcetera. But Jesus had already seen God the Father, and Heaven (Which are unseen things to us). So according to the definition of faith according to the Bible, it does not make sense that Jesus (Who is God and who has been with God in Heaven already) would need to have faith like we do. Angels cannot have faith anymore than God can. This is why what you propose is highly illogical and it cannot be substantiated with Scripture (unless you are using a Modern Bible (instead of the KJB) while reading Hebrews 12:2, etc.).

Mr. M · Jan 17, 2022

Bible Highlighter said:
Hebrews 11:1
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

"hoped for" =elpizo [G1679] =trust,
as in:Matthew 12:21 And in His name Gentiles will trust.
Thereby defining faith more correctly as to believe in without doubt,
anchored in complete trust. Hebrews 11:1 was not an attempt to provide a unique
and solitary definition of faith.
We don't comprehend gospel truth by coming up with a single definition, but by
considering the entire Bible presentation of faith, hope, love, trust.
Do you place your trust in dictionaries, or "every word that has proceeded from the
mouth of God". Honestly, a dictionary is the work of man. One statement by the writer
of Hebrews does not define faith. How about the delicate balance between Paul and James.
Do you believe that faith without works is dead?
Jesus and the apostles did not impart faith simply by words, but by actions;
as "in all signs and wonders".
Did Jesus demonstrate complete trust in His Father?
How about when He walked on water?
And when Peter failed, He asked "where is your faith?"
Actions taken with complete trust in what you have placed your hope on,
without doubting, is to walk by faith, even on water.
Now that is a definition of faith also, allowing many scriptures to contribute
to our knowledge thereof, and consistent with Hebrew 11:1, which only works
when you provide an explanation for "substance". Have you? It is very interesting.
Then this will make more sense:
2 Timothy 1:6 Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you
through the laying on of my hands.

Because "substance" is sentiment. You have heard of "settling on the lees"?
2 Peter 1:13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up
by putting you in remembrance;
Jesus came and showed us trust hope and love by real, yet miraculous
actions, because He had the Spirit without measure. Because He placed
complete trust in His Father, showing us the Way, the Truth, and the Life....in Him.
"We can be perfect, even as our Father in perfect", only with the faith, hope,
trust, and love that that we are given in Christ. We love, because He first loved,
for God is Love. We walk by faith when we walk in the Spirit that is given, from
which we receive the faith of Jesus Christ. When we walk by faith, we walk
"as He walked". 1 John 2:6
You should notice that the longer I sit here and type under the anointing,
the more we receive, and for us to consider what the Spirit is saying to us. I am
not consulting a "database or reference", I am receiving in "the spirit of my mind",
then looking up the scriptures to make sure that I am quoting accurately, or then
cut and paste the scripture references that I am receiving by the Voice of the Spirit.
Are you going to now posit that Jesus had no trust, because He could not trust
Himself, because He is God? That He never actually died because He is God, and
God cannot die? This Trinitarian argument that you are using as a vehicle is a
major fail in my eyes, but if you want to keep trying, be my guest.
Hebrews 6:
17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise
the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath,
18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie,
we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of
the hope set before us.
19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast,
and which enters the Presence behind the veil,
20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become
High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Mr. M · Jan 17, 2022

Bible Highlighter said:
But Jesus had already seen God the Father, and Heaven (Which are unseen things to us).

This is an incorrect comprehension of "things not seen." This is not talking about the Son
of God having already seen His Father in heaven.
It is about not seeing and yet believing NOW. NOW FAITH.
Jesus could "see" what His Father was doing at all times by the manifestation of the Spirit.
John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell
where it comes from and where it goes. So is for everyone who is born of the Spirit.

We cannot see the Spirit, but we can discern the move of the Spirit,and say "it is the Lord",
and act on what we "receive" into our spirit from the Holy Spirit. This is to be spiritual,
to spiritually discern". 1 Corinthians 2:10-16.
Believing without seeing, but by "experiencing" the unseen eternal,
Christ in you, the hope of glory.
In this way, we can walk as He walked, in the Spirit, by faith.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 17, 2022

@DamianWarS

I believe Jesus was limited in knowledge because He suppressed His divine attribute of Omniscience. Note: He never lost His Omniscience, it was only suppressed.

Anyways, some suggest that because Jesus was limited in knowledge He would have to have faith or trust in the Father for everything, but this is not what we see if we look at the whole counsel of God's true Holy Word. Modern Bibles and Modern Scholarship teaches falsely that Jesus emptied Himself and He gave up His divine privileges.

Example:

Modern Bibles falsey say this:

Philippians 2:7 (NLT)
“Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;...,”

Philippians 2:7 (ESV)
“but emptied himself,...”

However, the King James Bible (that existed prior for hundreds of years) correctly says this:

Philippians 2:7 (KJB)
“But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:”

In any event, does a limitation of knowledge means one has faith? Jesus made statements like He seen God, and He came down from Heaven, and He does what He sees the Father do, and when asked to see the Father by His disciples, our Lord rebuked them. We also see Jesus being worshiped as God, and we see Jesus saying He always does what pleases the Father. This does not sound like one in whom has faith. Jesus never looked ahead to invisible things like we do. See again the definition of faith in Hebrews 11:1.

Side Note:

Oh, and yes. There is a conspiracy involving Modern Bibles. I just discovered a new one involving the New King James Version. Yes, I was aware of how the NKJV is a Modern Bible and I was aware of how it was different in that it followed both the Critical Text, and Textus Receptus, and I was aware of how it changed certain beloved verses in the beloved KJB, but I did not know about it's deceptive bait and switch method the creators behind the NKJV used, though (until last night).

Bible Highlighter · Jan 17, 2022

Minister Monardo said:
This is an incorrect comprehension of "things not seen." This is not talking about the Son
of God having already seen His Father in heaven.
It is about not seeing and yet believing NOW. NOW FAITH.
Jesus could "see" what His Father was doing at all times by the manifestation of the Spirit.
John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell
where it comes from and where it goes. So is for everyone who is born of the Spirit.

We cannot see the Spirit, but we can discern the move of the Spirit,and say "it is the Lord",
and act on what we "receive" into our spirit from the Holy Spirit. This is to be spiritual,
to spiritually discern". 1 Corinthians 2:10-16.
Believing without seeing, but by "experiencing" the unseen eternal,
Christ in you, the hope of glory.
In this way, we can walk as He walked, in the Spirit, by faith.

So Jesus could not remember seeing God and Heaven while on the Earth? Do you really believe Jesus was only speaking about how He seen God and came down from Heaven based on what God the Father told Him (while He could not recall such things)?

The whole point of our faith is believing in God when we have never seen God. This is not the case with Jesus because Jesus said He has seen God the Father while no other human being has done so.

John 1:18
“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

John 6:46
“Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.”

Jesus said He came down from Heaven.

John 6:38
“For I came down from heaven,…”

So Jesus has seen God and seen Heaven.

Jesus says He only does what He sees the Father doing.

John 5:19
“Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.”

Jesus said He is one with the Father.

John 10:30
“I and my Father are one.”

Sophrosyne · Jan 17, 2022

Bible Highlighter said:
Also, there is the definition of faith in the Bible. It says this:

“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1).

Did Jesus have faith in substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen?

No, Jesus did not have faith in things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen because Jesus seen God the Father, and Heaven, etcetera. Jesus did not have any hope of salvation like we have because Jesus did not need salvation because He is the source of salvation.

John 14:6
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

John 11:25
“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:”

One could also say faith is putting your trust in someone else to do something for you instead of doing it yourself.
Jesus many times trusted the Father with everything in his life. If you are never doing your own will but doing what someone else tells you to do, you are putting your faith in their decisions plain and simple. Now this may or may not be the truth but possibly on the cross when Jesus took our sins he may have had to rely on the other 2 persons of God in his death, burial, and resurrection to "restore" him to glory.
Another definition of faith..... is believing in someone else, Jesus believed in the Father. I also believe that Jesus put aside his deity and as living as a "normal" man he put his faith in the Father, the angels, and the Holy Spirit for his protection throughout his earthly life so he would be rightly considered a valid, legal sacrifice on the cross.
Now either Jesus was all knowing his entire life or he wasn't. I consider things not seen as two types: Things in the future that have not come to pass, and things outside our realm of understanding in this life. In the case of earthly happenstance if Jesus was never surprised I would be more likely to admit that he needed no faith as everything has already been "seen" and nothing would be unexpected or "not seen" however since there was things unexpected and he actually prayed to the Father which we believers do by faith because prayer is IMO by faith itself we are "hoping" for things, and praying for things that are "not seen" yet to happen.

To put it simply Jesus had faith in the Father and that is by scripture. pleasing.

Mr. M · Jan 17, 2022

Bible Highlighter said:
So Jesus could not remember seeing God and Heaven while on the Earth?

I did not say that, want to try again?

Mr. M · Jan 17, 2022

Bible Highlighter said:
Do you really believe Jesus was only speaking about how He seen God and came down from Heaven based on what God the Father told Him (while He could not recall such things)?

This question has nothing to do with what I wrote, and is nearly incomprehensible.

Mr. M · Jan 17, 2022

Bible Highlighter said:
John 1:18
“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

John 6:46
“Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.”

Jesus said He came down from Heaven.

John 6:38
“For I came down from heaven,…”

So Jesus has seen God and seen Heaven.

Jesus says He only does what He sees the Father doing.

John 5:19
“Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.”

Yes, I have read the gospel of John a few times. What He saw the Father doing wasn't
a memory from heaven. It is what He was seeing then. NOW. At that moment. Today.

Mr. M · Jan 17, 2022

Bible Highlighter said:
So Jesus could not remember seeing God and Heaven while on the Earth? Do you really believe Jesus was only speaking about how He seen God and came down from Heaven based on what God the Father told Him (while He could not recall such things)?

The whole point of our faith is believing in God when we have never seen God. This is not the case with Jesus because Jesus said He has seen God the Father while no other human being has done so.

John 1:18
“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

John 6:46
“Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.”

Jesus said He came down from Heaven.

John 6:38
“For I came down from heaven,…”

So Jesus has seen God and seen Heaven.

Jesus says He only does what He sees the Father doing.

John 5:19
“Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.”

Jesus said He is one with the Father.

John 10:30
“I and my Father are one.”

When We Walk By Faith, We Walk As He Walked

DamianWarS · Jan 17, 2022

Bible Highlighter said:
For us… the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen would be God, and Heaven, etcetera. But Jesus had already seen God the Father, and Heaven (Which are unseen things to us). So according to the definition of faith according to the Bible, it does not make sense that Jesus (Who is God and who has been with God in Heaven already) would need to have faith like we do. Angels cannot have faith anymore than God can. This is why what you propose is highly illogical and it cannot be substantiated with Scripture (unless you are using a Modern Bible (instead of the KJB) while reading Hebrews 12:2, etc.).

his humanity had the complete human experience if you say anything less and it's docetism. You only argue for the divine condition but sacrifice the human condition in doing so. Jesus did not have x-ray vision and he could not see the invisible. His communion with the Father was done so through the human condition and the verses you quote are not in disagreement with this. dragging modern translation conspiracies into this is in poor taste, there is a conspiracy thread for things like that where that conversation is better suited. If you're going to say I'm wrong because of the Bible translation I use then you should have put that as a condition in the op.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 17, 2022

Minister Monardo said:
Yes, I have read the gospel of John a few times. What He saw the Father doing wasn't
a memory from heaven. It is what He was seeing then. NOW. At that moment. Today.

How do you know? It sounds to me like this is something He has always done since Eternity’s past.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 17, 2022

DamianWarS said:
his humanity had the complete human experience if you say anything less and it's docetism. You only argue for the divine condition but sacrifice the human condition in doing so. Jesus did not have x-ray vision and he could not see the invisible. His communion with the Father was done so through the human condition and the verses you quote are not in disagreement with this. dragging modern translation conspiracies into this is in poor taste, there is a conspiracy thread for things like that where that conversation is better suited.

Jesus had power as God during His earthly ministry:

1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).
2. Hebrews 1:3 talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.
3. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later (John 2:19).
4. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6).
5 Jesus had power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).
6. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today.
7. Jesus knew men's thoughts (Matthew 9:4) (Matthew 12:25) (Mark 2:8) (Luke 5:22) (Luke 6:8) (Luke 9:47) (Luke 24:38).
8. Jesus knew about the lives of others (John 2:24) (John 4:17-18) (John 4:29) (John 6:64).

You said:
If you're going to say I'm wrong because of the Bible translation I use then you should have put that as a condition in the op.

I shouldn’t have to do so. It should be obvious to a believer that Modern Bibles are corrupt or tainted and the King James Bible stands above them. This topic discussion only proves the superiority of God’s true Word over the false ones. The Modern Bibles want you to think Jesus is just like us in every way. Yes. Jesus is human. No doubt about it. But Jesus was not a sinner like the rest of humanity (if he was to be like us in every way). For Hebrews 7:26 says Jesus is holy, undefined, and separate from sinners. Even the Modern bibles say that. But the point here is that they push the agenda that Jesus has faith. This is why you believe the way you do.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 17, 2022

Minister Monardo said:
When We Walk By Faith, We Walk As He Walked

I believe 1 John 2:6 is in regards to mirroring Christ’s holy conduct.

“He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked” (1 John 2:6).

So Jesus obeying the Father (i.e. His walk) and our trying to mirror His natural obedience to the Father is faith on our part because we have never seen God the Father, Jesus, etcetera. But for Jesus, He did not need to trust or have faith in God the Father because He was one with the Father and the Father always hears Him. So do you believe Jesus could not remember seeing God the Father or Heaven? Jesus said He was in the Father, and the Father was in Him. This means that Jesus abided in God the Father in Heaven.

This is how Jesus could say that the Son of man is in heaven.

John 3:13
“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

Yes, I am not denying Jesus was limited in knowledge. But this again does not equate with Him having the need for faith. Faith is having hope in things unseen according to Hebrews 11:1. So unless Jesus’ mind was entirely erased concerning His past with God the Father, I don’t see how He could have faith in God (i.e. have hope in God the Father in that He has never seen Him). For remember, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. So unless Jesus’ past memory with God the Father was entirely wiped away, the definition for Hebrews 11:1 cannot apply to Jesus.

Mr. M · Jan 17, 2022

Bible Highlighter said:
How do you know? It sounds to me like this is something He has always done since Eternity’s past.

This is how I know. This not from my hard drive. This was spoken into my
heart, and not word that was given have I omitted.
Isaiah 42:1 Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom
My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Matthew 12:18 Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen, My Beloved in whom
My soul is well pleased! I will put My Spirit upon Him,
And He will declare judgment to the Gentiles.

John 1:
32 And John bore witness, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove,
and He remained upon Him.
33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me,
Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is
He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.
34 And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.

Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be
tempted by the devil.

Luke 4:14 Then Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and
news of Him went out through all the surrounding region.

1 John 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk
just as He walked.

What is clearly seen by the testimony of the scriptures is that Jesus walked in
the Spirit He was given, not in accordance with some "walk through" that took
place in heaven before He was born.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you,
He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through
His Spirit who dwells in you.

Galatians 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Jesus walked in the Spirit He was given.
We are instructed to walk in "the same Spirit", which we are given,
which we receive when we believe in the One who sent His Son, and
raised Him from the dead.
We are instructed to walk by faith, not by sight.
We are instructed to walk just as He walked, after the Spirit we are given.

Galatians 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon
the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of
the Spirit through faith.

To walk by faith as faithful Abraham
Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place
which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out,
not knowing where he was going.

And yet you say that Jesus did not walk by faith, that He always knew where He was
going because He is God.
So how are we to walk as He walked?
He walked in the Spirit. We are to walk in the same Spirit.
By the faith of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
2 Corinthians 4:
13 And since we have the same spirit of faith, according to what is written,
I believed and therefore I spoke,” we also believe and therefore speak,
14 knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus,
and will present us with you.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 17, 2022

Bible Highlighter said:
Do you really believe Jesus was only speaking about how He seen God and came down from Heaven based on what God the Father told Him (while He could not recall such things)?

Minister Monardo said:
This question has nothing to do with what I wrote, and is nearly incomprehensible.

We know by the Bible that:

Jesus has seen God the Father (John 1:18) (John 6:46).

Jesus said he came down from Heaven (John 6:38).

Jesus speaks to others on what He should say because the Father commanded Him to say such things.

John 12:49
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

So if Jesus had faith in the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Such as God the Father, and heaven), then this means He cannot recall or remember (i.e. He does not have any memory) of God the Father, Heaven, etcetera. Is that what you believe? That Jesus does not have any memory of God and Heaven during His earthly ministry?

Did Jesus have faith? (Note: I have an answer, but I am curious as to what others have to say).

Did Jesus have faith?

Yes.

No.

I don’t know.

Other (Please explain).

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Let Your Light Shine.. Matt 5:16

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