The Barbarian

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Many states require that children be vaccinated.

Yes. But this is because children are not property. They have rights and exist as entities of their own. So parents don't have unlimited right to endanger them or to endanger others by failing to vaccinate them. This is why there are laws regarding vaccination.
 
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Paidiske

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The only time government should step in is when children are being physically, emotionally or sexual abused.

There are other reasons as well, why the government might need to step in. Neglect is a category of abuse as well.

It would be possible to argue that refusing to vaccinate children in this situation is a form of neglect. I am not sure that I would be willing to say it is severe enough to require government intervention, but I could go far enough to say that it is a form of neglect.
 
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coffee4u

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There are other reasons as well, why the government might need to step in. Neglect is a category of abuse as well.

It would be possible to argue that refusing to vaccinate children in this situation is a form of neglect. I am not sure that I would be willing to say it is severe enough to require government intervention, but I could go far enough to say that it is a form of neglect.

Severe neglect would be a type of physical and emotional abuse.

But no I disagree over vaccinations. Many people have well thought out reasons for why they refuse. They may be refusing due to chemicals present that they believe are harmful to health, allergies in their family, a belief that the vaccinations have not yet been tested enough or are effective, a child's past reaction to vaccination, religious views or a bundle of reasons. They are refusing out of love which is completely different to abuse.

Many people refused the MMR vaccine for their children due to their belief it caused autism. As much as I may personally disagree with their view it isn't my place or the governments place to force them to go against their conscience, which is what we are dealing with here.
No parent should feel forced to go against their own conscience when they have the child's best intentions at heart. Not while their children are happy and healthy. The only time I would say this stops is if their child is in some immediate danger like they got bitten by a snake and will die without anti venom.

If the argument for vaccination is about prevention or putting children at risk then we should also rightly police smoking in the home. The dangers of smoking have long been known with a lot of data to back it up yet no one mentions this.
Smoking and tobacco and children
Is putting your child at risk of all of that not some form of abuse?
I personally think its terrible but again I would not hand over those parents rights to the government because next time it will be on something else and then something else and one day people will realize all their rights have been stripped away.

If people are truly concerned then education would be of far more benefit.
 
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renniks

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After reading this article, I really don't understand why there would be religious objections to a vaccine, though. Someone please tell me where in Scripture God gives any indication that can be reasonably interpreted as Him despising, forbidding, or condemning one of His children getting a needle in his arm to help increase his chances of not contracting a viral infection. Where is one's Biblical morals being compromised to any degree in getting vaccinated?
Wow, maybe you don't know that some vaccines have fetal tissue and some believe they alter DNA?
 
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Taodeching

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Wow, maybe you don't know that some vaccines have fetal tissue and some believe they alter DNA?

None have fetal tissue, some were tested on old fetal lines but do not contain fetal tissue.
 
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renniks

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None have fetal tissue, some were tested on old fetal lines but do not contain fetal tissue.
Some were originally derived from abortive tissue.
The COVID-19 vaccine (J&J/Janssen) is made using fetal retinal cells.

That should be an issue for people who are pro life.
 
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Taodeching

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Some were originally derived from abortive tissue.
The COVID-19 vaccine (J&J/Janssen) is made using fetal retinal cells.

That should be an issue for people who are pro life.

Even if that is true there are others that are not, so that opposition is mute.
 
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Paidiske

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Severe neglect would be a type of physical and emotional abuse.

But no I disagree over vaccinations. Many people have well thought out reasons for why they refuse. They may be refusing due to chemicals present that they believe are harmful to health, allergies in their family, a belief that the vaccinations have not yet been tested enough or are effective, a child's past reaction to vaccination, religious views or a bundle of reasons. They are refusing out of love which is completely different to abuse.

Many people refused the MMR vaccine for their children due to their belief it caused autism. As much as I may personally disagree with their view it isn't my place or the governments place to force them to go against their conscience, which is what we are dealing with here.
No parent should feel forced to go against their own conscience when they have the child's best intentions at heart. Not while their children are happy and healthy. The only time I would say this stops is if their child is in some immediate danger like they got bitten by a snake and will die without anti venom.

If the argument for vaccination is about prevention or putting children at risk then we should also rightly police smoking in the home. The dangers of smoking have long been known with a lot of data to back it up yet no one mentions this.
Smoking and tobacco and children
Is putting your child at risk of all of that not some form of abuse?
I personally think its terrible but again I would not hand over those parents rights to the government because next time it will be on something else and then something else and one day people will realize all their rights have been stripped away.

If people are truly concerned then education would be of far more benefit.

Sometimes people are abusive out of love. Many beaten children have been told it's for their own good.

In general, I agree about the importance of conscience and the place of a parent's authority, but I do think it has limits. In general I wouldn't put vaccination over that limit, but for Covid, given the social situation and the death rate, I think an argument could be made. Because a happy and healthy child can be dead next week. And I say this conscious that a friend of mine is burying her three year old who died of Covid, this week.

Education is definitely important, but at the end of the day, it's the child's safety that matters most, more than the opinions or feelings of the parent.
 
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The Barbarian

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None have fetal tissue, some were tested on old fetal lines but do not contain fetal tissue.

Correct. But the anti-vaxxers are pushing that lie everywhere. And the mRNA vaccines can't alter DNA; DNA produces mRNA than then leaves the nucleus and translates into a protein. The mRNA is then disassembled.
 
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renniks

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Even if that is true there are others that are not, so that opposition is mute.
"On March 2nd, 2021, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops issued a statement which
addressed the use of Johnson & Johnson’s COVID-19 vaccine. The Bishops stated: “if one can
choose among equally safe and effective COVID-19 vaccines, the vaccine with the least
connection to abortion-derived cell lines should be chosen. Therefore, if one has the ability to
choose a vaccine, Pfizer or Moderna’s vaccines should be chosen over Johnson &
Johnson’s…"


"While Moderna and Pfizer used them in testing only, J&J also used them in the production of its vaccine."
Fetal-cell lines played a vital role in the development of all three vaccines."
COVID-19 vaccines and fetal tissue: the science and controversy explained
 
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The Barbarian

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The people opposing vaccines have pretty much tossed out every possible accusation, apparently in the hope that something might stick.

The origins of the modern anti-vaxxer cult is instructive and at the bottom, money was the impetus for all of it:
The Measles, Mumps, and Rubella (MMR) Vaccine Controversy

Nearly 25 years after the DTP controversy, England was again the site of anti-vaccination activity, this time regarding the MMR vaccine.

In 1998, British doctor Andrew Wakefield recommended further investigation of a possible relationship between bowel disease, autism, and the MMR vaccine.[14] A few years later, Wakefield alleged the vaccine was not properly tested before being put into use.[15] The media seized these stories, igniting public fear and confusion over the safety of the vaccine.[16] The Lancet, the journal that originally published Wakefield’s work, stated in 2004 that it should not have published the paper.[17] The General Medical Council, an independent regulator for doctors in the UK, found that Wakefield had a “fatal conflict of interest.” He had been paid by a law board to find out if there was evidence to support a litigation case by parents who believed that the vaccine had harmed their children. In 2010, the Lancet formally retracted the paper after the British General Medical Council ruled against Wakefield in several areas. Wakefield was struck from the medical register in Great Britain and may no longer practice medicine there. In January 2011, the BMJ published a series of reports by journalist Brian Deer outlining evidence that Wakefield had committed scientific fraud by falsifying data and also that Wakefield hoped to financially profit from his investigations in several ways.[18]

A large number of research studies have been conducted to assess the safety of the MMR vaccine, and none of them has found a link between the vaccine and autism.[19]

History of Anti-vaccination Movements | History of Vaccines
 
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Taodeching

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Lol, that's absurd.
And many people have other religious objections.

Of course made up ones. The new religion is willful ignorance and lies, evangelicals lead the charge because they believe their own lies
 
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Taodeching

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"On March 2nd, 2021, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops issued a statement which
addressed the use of Johnson & Johnson’s COVID-19 vaccine. The Bishops stated: “if one can
choose among equally safe and effective COVID-19 vaccines, the vaccine with the least
connection to abortion-derived cell lines should be chosen. Therefore, if one has the ability to
choose a vaccine, Pfizer or Moderna’s vaccines should be chosen over Johnson &
Johnson’s…"


"While Moderna and Pfizer used them in testing only, J&J also used them in the production of its vaccine."
Fetal-cell lines played a vital role in the development of all three vaccines."
COVID-19 vaccines and fetal tissue: the science and controversy explained

Yes at one time even my own church warned us agaisnt J and J, until J and J explained things. There is no talking to anti vaxxers. Humanity wants to destroy itself so bad than let it be done swiftly
 
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ThisIsMe123

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Of course made up ones. The new religion is willful ignorance and lies, evangelicals lead the charge because they believe their own lies

I am curious, what excuse do non-Christians and non-religious folks use to not get vaccinated? I guess it's the ingredients thing or "hasn't been tested for decades".
 
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ThisIsMe123

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Yes at one time even my own church warned us agaisnt J and J, until J and J explained things. There is no talking to anti vaxxers. Humanity wants to destroy itself so bad than let it be done swiftly

Yeah, it's like people do things out of spite.
 
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renniks

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I am curious, what excuse do non-Christians and non-religious folks use to not get vaccinated? I guess it's the ingredients thing or "hasn't been tested for decades".
Why does anyone need an " excuse" to make their own health decisions?
 
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renniks

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Yes at one time even my own church warned us agaisnt J and J, until J and J explained things. There is no talking to anti vaxxers. Humanity wants to destroy itself so bad than let it be done swiftly
Oh they explained that it's ok to use fetal tissue? Well then of course they could not be in the wrong!
 
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