Why we left the Catholic Church

Akita Suggagaki said:

Then why so many churches?

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Why so many Catholic churches?

Albion said:

Why so many Catholic churches?

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Always so truculent. Many churches of all kinds, of course.

Akita Suggagaki said:

Always so truculent. Many churches of all kinds, of course.

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So...there are many churches. Some are classified as Protestant and others are classified as Catholic. Is that your point? Is that what we are agreeing on?

Albion said:

So...there are many churches. Some are classified as Protestant and others are classified as Catholic. Is that your point?

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Of course not. Why can't you see that church divisions are caused by churches wanting to practice their independence, to assert their own particular views and preferences from interpretations to practices.

Akita Suggagaki said:

Of course not. Why can't you see that church divisions are caused by churches wanting to practice their independence, to assert their own particular views and preferences from interpretations to practices.

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Why cannot you see the issue as affecting ALL Christian churches and groupings of churches?

You wanted to make "I think for myself" into the standard of Protestant theology as opposed to other Christians and Christian churches (see post 179), but that would be dead wrong, incorrect, mistaken, misinformed, false, baseless, etc. etc. etc.

Albion said:

Why cannot you see the issue as affecting ALL Christian churches and groupings of churches?

You wanted to make "I think for myself" into the standard of Protestant theology as opposed to other Christians and Christian churches (see post 179), but that would be dead wrong, incorrect, mistaken, misinformed, false, baseless, etc. etc. etc.

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So now you admit it is an issue that affects all Christian Churches?

In post #162 I stated, " If one can no longer share the particular beliefs and interpretations, the community no longer feels right." At that point one often leaves that church in search of another or none. Catholic or protestant. One that fits better or is more aligned with "Me".

Akita Suggagaki said:

So now you admit it is an issue that affects all Christian Churches?

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Not just now. I've made this point at least a dozen times, and probably more, whenever the same, lame, argument is thrown at Protestantism by the members of the Roman Catholic Church. And I had to make it several times on this thread just to try to get you to even recognize a false charge against Protestants.

In post #162 I stated, " If one can no longer share the particular beliefs and interpretations, the community no longer feels right." At that point one often leaves that church in search of another or none. Catholic or protestant. One that fits better or is more aligned with "Me".

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Sure, but then look at what was posted in the messages that followed. 173-181, for instance.

Albion said:

Why cannot you see the issue as affecting ALL Christian churches and groupings of churches?

You wanted to make "I think for myself" into the standard of Protestant theology as opposed to other Christians and Christian churches (see post 179), but that would be dead wrong, incorrect, mistaken, misinformed, false, baseless, etc. etc. etc.

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There are many Churches who have separated from Peter yet still call themselves Catholic. They are no better off than the 30,000 protestant denominations

SabbathBlessings said:

I agree and so does scriptures.

1 Timothy 2: 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

You don’t need to confess your sins to a human when we can go directly to Christ. We do not need a mediator because Christ is our Mediator!

God bless!

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It seems that many Catholics do not believe that the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom so, they feel they need to go to a priest or through a priest and ask for forgiveness. This would imply they do not believe in the full crucifixion as described in scripture.

Peace be to all those in the Body of Christ.

ChristServant said:

It seems that many Catholics do not believe that the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom so, they feel they need to go to a priest or through a priest and ask for forgiveness. This would imply they do not believe in the full crucifixion as described in scripture.

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thank you for YOUR fallible opinion of scripture.

concretecamper said:

There are many Churches who have separated from Peter yet still call themselves Catholic. They are no better off than the 30,000 protestant denominations

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Maybe, but don't miss the point that is basic in all of this. It is fundamentally a trick when somebody says "Look at my own denomination/church. It stands for X. Compare that with the hundreds or thousands of other churches. As we can see, Protestantism is fractured. The Catholic Church is one entity. Therefore, Protestantism is confused and everyone gets to believe whatever he wants to believe--unlike Catholicism."

That kind of argument, as common as it is, still is inherently false.

I do not expect anyone who likes to use it to stop doing so just because it's erroneous, but I can point out that it is a false argument when one denomination is contrasted with a whole bunch of other ones in order to say, in effect, "Look, this single church body is united unlike those other ones when taken all together!"

Of course (1) of anything will look more compact then than (100), no matter what it is that we're counting. That's not theology.

And then there is also that other falsehood that's attached to this argument. I am referring to the "everyone gets to decide for himself what to believe in Protestantism." Most Protestant churches have statements of belief that are spelled out in at least as much detail and enforced probably more closely than what happens in the Roman Catholic Church. It's not at all the case that everyone gets to believe whatever he chooses or that this is characteristic of Protestant churches.

Albion said:

Maybe, but don't miss the point that is basic in all of this. It is fundamentally a trick when somebody says "Look at my own denomination/church. It stands for X. Compare that with the hundreds or thousands of other churches. As we can see, Protestantism is fractured. The Catholic Church is one entity. Therefore, Protestantism is confused and everyone gets to believe whatever he wants to believe--unlike Catholicism."

That kind of argument, as common as it is, still is inherently false.

I do not expect anyone who likes to use it to stop doing so just because it's erroneous, but I can point out that it is a false argument when one denomination is contrasted with a whole bunch of other ones in order to say "Look, we are united unlike them!"

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Facts don't care about your feelings. You set up a false narrative to deflect. The argument you whine about is true and it will be used again and again.

Peter J Barban said:

I told the priest that I left the church because they never taught me the gospel of grace, that I didn't accept the Pope's authority and that I wanted to interpret the Bible myself without the guidance of millennia of Church teachings (like praying to Saints), but I was very intent on living for Jesus and serving God as a missionary. Surprisingly, the priest actually agreed that it was better for me to leave the Catholic church. That's my story in a nutshell.

I encourage other Christians who have left the Catholic church to share their stories as well.

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I applaud your decision to stand on the principle of "Sola scriptura" testing of all tradition and doctrine as we see Christ doing in Mark 7:6-13 and as we see being done in Acts 17:11. Paul reminds us that scripture is inspired by God and to be used for "doctrine and correction". 2 Tim 3:16

But at the same time - that sounds like a very wise priest. So good on him as well.

Akita Suggagaki said:

Then why so many churches?

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The Roman Catholic church gave birth to a great many of them including the Orthodox church.

That tradition continued even within Protestant churches that gave birth to others as well.

In other words ... that is not "the difference"

concretecamper said:

the Westboro Baptist Church displays the phenomenon of protestantism quite well. It's all about what I think scripture teaches

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I don't know all that much about Westboro Baptists -- Do they have anything like a Lateran IV ecumenical council calling for the "extermination of heretics"??

Albion said:

One tiny congregation that is criticized by almost everyone on all sides of these debates does not make much of an example or object lesson about anything, however.

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ok one tiny congregation ... so you're saying one cannot accuse 100's of millions of Christians of whatever one find "one tiny congregation" doing?

concretecamper said:

the belief in the necessity of Baptism for Salvation was a universal belief amongst Christians. Today, you have many protestant denominations teaching the exact opposite (based on scripture). This departure should have every Christian quaking in their boots.

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Peter had an interesting statement on that point.


Because salvation works like this "8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Rom 10

John 1:11 "to as many as BELIEVED to them He gave the right to be called the children of God"

Acts 16:
30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.

BobRyan said:

ok one tiny congregation ... so you're saying one cannot accuse 100's of millions of Christians of whatever one find "one tiny congregation" doing?

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Yes, but it's more than that in this case because not only is what Westboro is best known for--those intrusive and insulting demonstrations at other people's funerals--but a huge percentage of Protestant churches denounced that action as well.

concretecamper said:

Facts don't care about your feelings. You set up a false narrative to deflect. The argument you whine about is true and it will be used again and again.

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I'd agree, and that's why I stuck to the facts in that reply without drifting into an unnecessary display of personal feelings. And of course, no personal attacks upon the other person just because he was incorrect about the facts. You might want to consider following my lead in that respect.

Albion said:

I'd agree, and that's why I stuck to the facts in that reply without drifting into an unnecessary display of personal feelings. And of course, no personal attacks upon the other person just because he was incorrect about the facts. You might want to consider following my lead in that respect.

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facts dont care about my feeling either. I post facts, if you disagree and get all sideways about it, I cant do anything about that.