The little horns of Daniel 7 and 8

Trivalee · Dec 18, 2021

Acts29 said:
They are different. Scriptures:

Daniel 8:11 ... and by reason of him the sacrifice was disturbed, and he prospered; and the holy place shall be made desolate. ..., 'How long shall the vision continue, even the removal of the sacrifice, and the bringing in of the sin of desolation; and how long shall the sanctuary and host be trampled?' 14 And he said to him, 'Evening and morning there shall be two thousand and three hundred days; and the sanctuary shall be purified.'
Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change times and law: and power shall be given into his hand for a time and times and half a time.

The Daniel 8 figure must come first because he will make the Temple will be desolate 2300 days. The Daniel 7 figure only given a time, times and a half a time, 3.5 years, or 1260 days. Therefore, the Daniel 7 figure comes roughly 1000 days after the Daniel 8 figure. Thus, they must be different.

You are correct that the LH of Dan 7 and 8 are different individuals. To understand the horns, the first thing is to identify who they are. Since you concede that the horns are different and Dan 7 is undoubtedly the future antichrist, it makes sense to also try and identify the little horn of Dan 8.

If you had done that, there's no way you'd have claimed that Dan 8:19 is still future.

Trivalee · Dec 18, 2021

Acts29 said:
The Daniel 7 figure has the same exact time as the dragon, beast, and false prophet in Revelation 12-13. This is also the 3rd and final "woe." It is reasonable to conclude the Daniel 7 figure is one of these, or perhaps all three since they work together. However, we can conclude he is the first Rev 13 beast. Here is why.

Daniel 7:24 And his ten horns are ten kings that shall arise: and after them shall arise another, who shall exceed all the former ones in wickedness and he shall humble three kings.
Revelation 13:1 And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns

The Daniel 7 figure has ten kings, as does the first Rev 13 beast. The false prophet is the one to arise after them and uproots three, leaving seven. (He doesn't replace them.) That is why the dragon only has seven crowns. The dragon is Satan. The first Rev 13 beast is another fallen angel named Azazel. The false prophet is a man who cause people to worship Azazel.

The Daniel 8 figure is the third beast in Daniel 7. We already established that he comes a short time before the fourth beast. The third Daniel 7 beast is a leopard with four wings. A leopard is fast already. Wings added make him very fast. He is the one to come very quickly and lay Israel waste once Jesus gives them up for destruction, as written here:

Isaiah 5:25 Therefore the anger of the Lord is aroused against His people; He has stretched out His hand against them And stricken them, And the hills trembled. Their carcasses were as refuse in the midst of the streets. For all this His anger is not turned away, But His hand is stretched out still. 26 He will lift up a banner to the nations from afar, And will whistle to them from the end of the earth; Surely they shall come with speed, swiftly. 27 No one will be weary or stumble among them, No one will slumber or sleep; Nor will the belt on their loins be loosed, Nor the strap of their sandals be broken;
28 Whose arrows are sharp, And all their bows bent; Their horses’ hooves will seem like flint, And their wheels like a whirlwind.

It would take a pretty deep dive to further investigate his nation via scripture. In short, the Daniel 8 figure is the Assyrian. A little more is below.

This is a long post already, so this might not satisfy fully.
The Daniel 8:9 beast is also the king of the north in Daniel 11. He is the Assyrian that pushes south, toward the Chaldeans, the king of the south. He also pushes east toward the Persians. This is the main focus of his kingdom in the early days. (If you can accept it, the book of Judith describes these battles and explains why Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon at Nineveh becomes angry with the western nations and sets out to destroy them.) The pleasant land is Israel. The man of sin, an anti-christ, king of the north, king of Babylon is named Nebuchadnezzar. I gave you the location of Babylon and the name of one of the AC's. How's that for identity?

Since we both agree that the LH of Dan 7 is the Antichrist, I will cut to the chase and go straight to identify the LH of Dan 8. If you had followed the chronology of the beast kingdoms mentioned back in Dan 7:3 and then read Dan 8 in full you would have understood that Dan 8 focused on the 3rd beast - the he-goat - Alex the great's Greek kingdom.

In Dan 8:5-7 we see the he-goat (Alex the great) defeat the ram (Medo-Persia). In v8 we see his kingdom split into FOUR after his death. Verse 9 "OUT OF ONE OF THEM (one of the 4 kingdoms that rose from Alex the Great) came forth a little horn..." I don't know how you forced the Assyrians where they had no business in.

The four beast kingdoms are Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. Assyria is not part of it, therefore, it makes no sense to assume a beast will come from a kingdom that has been defunct for over 100 years to the time of Alexander the great's Greek dynasty portrayed in Dan 8.

Torah Keeper · Dec 18, 2021

The goat was Greece and the ram was Medo-Persia. But to say the leopard was also Greece and the bear was also Medo-Persia, doesn't make sense to me. Especially when in Revelation we read that the lion-bear- leopard beast rules at the same time and even longer than the beast whose dominion was taken away. In fact they continue for a season and a time. Or 15 months after the terrible beast is destroyed. Explain that.

Trivalee · Dec 18, 2021

Berean Tim said:
Matthew 2429“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus didn't return "Immediately after the tribulation of those days". The 70 AD theory always falls short. I see Daniel "fulfilled prophecy" as types, God's proof of his word

Matt 24:29-31 is about the end times and yet to be fulfilled. It is not related to the events of 70AD.

Torah Keeper · Dec 18, 2021

The goat was the symbol of Greece. Greek history, imagery, and place names are all about goats. Same with the ram for Persia.

And I agree the little horn of Daniel 8 was Antiochus Epiphanes. This was fulfilled in Maccabees.

Trivalee · Dec 18, 2021

3 Resurrections said:
The ECF had a difficult time just wrapping their heads around even the most basic of doctrines, like the nature of Christ, and debated them extensively among each other. Ireneaus couldn't even get Jesus's age at His crucifixion correct. And though they learned directly from Jesus Himself, even the twelve disciples had a hard time understanding what Christ was teaching them during His ministry. After He ascended to heaven, they needed the assistance of the Holy Spirit to clarify His message and bring things to their remembrance.

Scripture does NOT say that all people everywhere on the planet would simultaneously see Christ's return to the Mount of Olives. Revelation 1:7 says that specifically, it would be "even (or namely) they which pierced Him" who would see His return to the Mount of Olives. Those trapped within the besieged city of Jerusalem were the ones who saw Christ returning across the Kidron Valley between them. That Kidron Valley was the "great gulf fixed" between those in the city and all the patriarchs and the resurrected saints who were gathered to meet Christ in the air across from them.

This viewing of the returning Christ resulted in weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth by the besieged members of the tribes of Israel trapped inside Jerusalem, who were guilty of murdering the Messiah; grieving that they were not able to participate in the benefits of that resurrection. The "door" to the kingdom in heaven was shut, and they were on the outside of it.

Anyone left alive in the city who had witnessed this event on Pentecost Day in AD 70 ended up dead five months afterwards of starvation, plague, or the sword. The few who managed to survive were taken captive and sold into slavery or sent to die in Roman arenas at the end of the siege. Unfortunately, dead people and enslaved prisoners don't write memoirs or their eye-witness accounts of Christ's return for your modern-day perusal.

That leaves you with Christ's words and the scripture's record proving that He was about to return before those in His generation had all died. Whether you want to believe this or not, thankfully it is not an issue that affects your eternal destiny.

I concur that the ECF had difficulties understanding the End-time prophecies. To understand their problem, we need to go to scripture. In Daniel's last vision, he was told "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased", (Daniel 12:4 KJV). This obscure verse is often overlooked when trying to figure out why the ECFs at the beginning of the church age, made a mess of the eschatological prophecies.

We know it is the Holy Spirit that enables us to discern the scriptures and understanding, is according to God's timetable. So, as the ECF strove (run to and fro) for an understanding of eschatology, they were constrained because it was not in line with God's timescale. I also believe that as we get closer to the end of the age, believers will understand the prophecies better than their predecessors.

You are wrong about who will see the Lord during his return. According to you, the people of the world will not see his return simultaneously. But that is NOT what scripture says, vide Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds and EVERY EYE shall see him AND [inconjuction with] they also which pierced him [Israel]: an ALL KINDRED OF THE EARTH shall wail because of him..." A diligent study of the text reveals that ALL humanity (Jew and Gentile) shall see him simultaneously - irrespective of time zone.

Your theory contradicts the Lord's warning in the Olivet discourse for believers not to heed any claim of a secret Lord's return. In corroboration with Rev 1:7, Matt 24:30 says "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall ALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH MOURN and THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN with power and great glory.

By the time the Messiah returns, Jerusalem would have fallen to the armies of the Antichrist (Zech 14:2). Bear in mind that believing Jews that have turned to Christ at that time would heed the warning to flee into the desert Rev 12:6 and 14 (Petra) where they would be succoured until the Messiah returns. So the Jews who were slaughtered by the Antichrist when he invaded Jerusalem probably were the intransigents that never converted to Christ.

Acts29 · Dec 18, 2021

Trivalee said:
The little horn of Dan 8 is about Antiochus IV Epiphanes who died in 164 BC. Vers 19 "And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be."

Verses 20-23 went on to describe the kingdoms (Persia and Greek) in whose reign the aforesaid indignation occurred. If you're still in doubt, see v-23 "In the latter time of their (Persia and Greek) kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance and understanding dark sentences shall stand up."

You made the error common with many scholars who fail to pay attention to the text before and after the verse they quoted. Given the above, your timing is way off - not every prophecy in Daniel is about the End of Times or the Antichrist.

Antiochus is 100% irrelevant to the kingdom of God. But, there isn't much of a purpose for arguing about this.

Trivalee said:
Also, your interpretation of the 'four winds' is erroneous. For some reason, you forgot to cite the verse in Habakkuk 3. Nevertheless, it is ludicrous to claim that Dan 7:2 refers to the Lord going to war for Israel "with chariots and horsemen riding through the sea". Only you forgot to say whether the purported chariots and horsemen are literal or symbolic?

Erroneous, ludicrous? See below if you are willing to receive the scriptures.
I did not say Daniel 7:2 is about the Lord going to war for Israel. Habakkuk 3 describes Daniel 7:2. [My notes are in brackets and blue.]

Habakkuk 3:2 LXX O Lord, I have heard your report, [<Isaiah 53] and was afraid: I considered your works, and was amazed: You shall be known between the two living creatures [<The Ark mercy seat], You shall be acknowledged when the years draw near; You shall be manifested when the time is come; when my soul is troubled, You will remember mercy in Your wrath.
[>Father speaks.] 3 God shall come from the south, and the Holy One from the dark shady mount Paran. Pause. 4 His excellence covered the heavens, and the earth was full of His praise. [<This is a direct contrast to the later coming of Jesus when all tribes mourn.] And His brightness shall be as light; there were horns in His hands [<God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus], and He caused a mighty love of His strength. 5 Before His face shall go a report, and it shall go forth into the plains, [<John] 6 the earth stood at its feet and trembled: He beheld, and the nations melted away: the mountains were violently burst through, the everlasting hills melted at His everlasting going forth. 7 Because of troubles I looked upon the tents of Cush: the tabernacles also of the land of Midian shall be dismayed.
8 Were You angry, O Yehovah, with the rivers? Or was Your wrath against the rivers, or Your anger against the sea? For You will mount on Your horses, and Your chariots are salvation. 9 Surely You did bend the bow at rulers, says Yehovah. Pause. The land of rivers shall be torn in two. 10 The nations shall see You and be in pain, as You do divide the moving waters: the deep uttered her voice, and raised her form on high. [<Psalm 104, Luke 21:25-28] 11 The sun and the moon stood still in their course: Your darts shall go forth at the light [sun], at the brightness of the gleaming of Your Arm. 12 You will bring low the land with threatening, and in wrath You will break down the nations. 13 You went forth for the salvation of your people, to save with Your Messiah: You shall bring death on the heads of transgressors; You have brought bands upon their neck. Pause. 14 You did cut in two the heads of princes when they came to scatter them; gloating as if to devour the poor in secret. 15 And You do cause Your horses to enter the sea, disturbing much water.

Luke 21:25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

Further, Zechariah describes the four winds of heaven as chariots.

Zechariah 6:1 LXX And I turned, and lifted up my eyes, and looked, and, behold, four chariots coming out from between two mountains; and the mountains were brazen mountains. 2 In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses; 3 and in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot piebald and ash-colored horses. 4 And I answered and said to the angel that talked with me, “What are these, my Lord?”
5 And the angel that talked with me answered and said, “These are the four winds of heaven, and they are going forth to stand before the Lord of all the earth.” 6 As for the chariot in which were the black horses, they went out to the land of the north; and the white went out after them; and the piebald went out to the land of the south. 7 And the ash-colored went out, and looked to go and compass the earth: and He said, “Go, and compass the earth.” And they compassed the earth.
8 And He cried out and spoke to me, saying, “Behold, these go out to the land of the north, and they have given rest to My Spirit in the land of the north.”

The red chariots are for Israel, the center point. Remember Elijah? The black horses go north toward Turkey/Europe. The white horses go after them, but to the east toward Asia. The piebald go south toward Africa. The ash-colored/pale horsemen go around the earth toward North and South America. (You might recall in Revelation 6 the pale horse afflicts 1/4 of the earth. N & S America is 25% of the earth's land.)

The four winds of heaven ARE the four colored horses with chariots. These four have two purposes. From Habakkuk 3 above we see they go forth for the salvation of His people to save with His Messiah. Then, they also afflict the earth severely, as per Revelation 6. The four winds of heaven, which are the horsemen pulling chariots of salvation, is precisely how the saints are caught up the meet the Lord in the air, just like Elijah.

The four winds/horses/chariots of heaven must stir up the great sea BEFORE the four beasts arise in Daniel 7. This clearly demonstrates the Jesus comes to gather His people and then afflict the earth BEFORE any of the beasts arise.

3 Resurrections · Dec 18, 2021

Trivalee said:
You are wrong about who will see the Lord during his return. According to you, the people of the world will not see his return simultaneously. But that is NOT what scripture says, vide Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds and EVERY EYE shall see him AND [inconjuction with] they also which pierced him [Israel]: an ALL KINDRED OF THE EARTH shall wail because of him..." A diligent study of the text reveals that ALL humanity (Jew and Gentile) shall see him simultaneously - irrespective of time zone.

Trivalee, it wasn't until I started doing a diligent study of this verse in the original languages that I noticed a major flaw with this translation that says, "And they also which pierced him." The world "also" is in italics. It's not there in the original Greek, but has been inserted at the whim of the translator.

In addition, where some versions use "AND" in this phrase, this is not necessarily the only way to translate that little word "kai" in Greek. The word "kai" can mean "namely", or "specifically" those who had pierced Him. In other words, "kai" is not always used with the meaning of "in addition to". That is only one of its functions.

Think about it. If "every eye" without exception on the entire planet was simultaneously seeing Christ's bodily return to the Mount of Olives, then what would be the point of inserting "and they also which pierced Him"? Wouldn't those who pierced Him already be included within the entire group of "every eye"? This makes no logical sense.

What does make sense is for John to say, "Behold He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see him, specifically (kai) those which pierced him". This pinpoints the category of "every eye" being the generation of Jews which had been the "betrayers and murderers" of Christ, and who had called down the blood guilt for Christ's death upon their own heads and that of their children. These would be doing the mourning when they saw that the One they had rejected really was their prophesied Messiah after all.

You are probably thinking that "all the tribes of the earth" includes every remote tribe on the planet from the jungle to the Arctic. Not so. The term "the earth" (tes ges) in Revelation is predominantly referring to the land of Israel itself. Most of the time in the OT when God speaks about "the earth" or "the land", He is speaking of the promised land of Canaan where the 12 tribes of Israel had settled. When John wanted to refer to the entire world at large in Revelation, he used the term "oikoumene" instead, which refers to the habitable world at large.

The "tribes of the earth" in Revelation are the same tribes referred to in the Zechariah 12:10 text, from which these exact words of prophecy in Revelation 2:7 were copied. The Zechariah context listed a few of those tribes and their families who would be mourning "in Jerusalem" (Zechariah 12:11): the house of David, Levi, the family of Nathan, and of Shimei. There is a specific reason why these particular mourning families and their wives are mentioned, and they point to the complete dissolution (after the AD 70 conflict) of the Temple, the priesthood, and all royal genealogical connections that might have descended from David. These were all eradicated by the end of AD 70, as God intended.

Trivalee said:
Your theory contradicts the Lord's warning in the Olivet discourse for believers not to heed any claim of a secret Lord's return. In corroboration with Rev 1:7, Matt 24:30 says "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall ALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH MOURN and THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN with power and great glory.

This is not a contradiction to John's and Zechariah's reference to the tribes mourning "in Jerusalem" particularly - not the entire world

Acts29 · Dec 18, 2021

Trivalee said:
You are correct that the LH of Dan 7 and 8 are different individuals. To understand the horns, the first thing is to identify who they are. Since you concede that the horns are different and Dan 7 is undoubtedly the future antichrist, it makes sense to also try and identify the little horn of Dan 8.

If you had done that, there's no way you'd have claimed that Dan 8:19 is still future.

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth one strong horn, and it grew very great toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the host: 10 and it magnified itself to the host of heaven; and there fell to the earth some of the host of heaven and of the stars, and they trampled on them. 11 And this shall be until the chief captain shall have delivered the captivity

Did Antiochus cast some of the angels of heaven to the ground and trample them?

There is not a single AC. There are many. The little horn in Daniel 8 is Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon at Nineveh, the man of sin.

The little horn in Daniel 7 is Mohammed, the false prophet, who will come up out of perdition/destruction. He is the son of perdition. Observe the word "believer" in Arabic. He will write this on their heads; the mark of the beast. When they stand up it will be upside down. A six laying prostrate before a six, and a six laying prostrate before an image. 666

مؤمن

Allah said Surah 27.An-Naml (The Ant) 82:
"And when the Word is fulfilled against them (the unjust), we shall produce from the earth a beast to (face) them: He will speak to them, for that mankind did not believe with assurance in Our Signs."

Ibn Jarir reported this from 'Ali and 'Ata' It was reported from Ibn 'Abbas that tukallimuhum means that the Beast will cut them, i e, it will write the word "Kafir" on the forehead of the unbeliever. It was also reported from Ibn 'Abbas that he will both address them and cut them

Abu Hurayrah said: "The Prophet said, 'Hasten to do good deeds before six things happen: the rising of the sun from the West, the smoke, the Dajjal, the Beast, the (death) of one of you or general tribulation.' " (Muslim.) Baridah said: "The Prophet took me to a place in the desert, near Makkah. It was a dry piece of land surrounded by sand. The Prophet said, 'The Beast will emerge from this place. It was a very small area.' " (Ibn Majah)

It was reported from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said, "The Beast of the Earth will emerge, and will have with it the rod of Moses and the ring of Solomon." It was also reported that he said, "(The Beast) will destroy the noses of the unbelievers with the ring, - so that people seated around one table will begin to address one another with the words "O Believer!" or "O Unbeliever!" (i e, everyone's status will become clear). (Ibn Majah.)

The Hajar al-Aswad was brought from Jannah and presented to Ebrahim (عليه السلام) to be placed on the corner of the Ka’bah. Ibn Abbas (رضي الله عنه) narrated that the Prophet (ﷺ) said: “The Black Stone came down from Paradise and it was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam turned it black.” [Tirmidhi]
Du’as are accepted at the Hajar al-Aswad and on the Day of Judgement it will testify in favour of all those who kissed it. The Prophet (ﷺ) said: “By Allah! On the Day of Qiyamah, Allah will present the Hajar al-Aswad in such a manner that it will have two eyes and a tongue to testify to the Imaan (faith) of all those who kissed it.” [Tirmidhi]

Revelation 13:15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

How many coincidences do we need?

Torah Keeper · Dec 18, 2021

3 Resurrections said:
Trivalee, it wasn't until I started doing a diligent study of this verse in the original languages that I noticed a major flaw with this translation that says, "And they also which pierced him." The world "also" is in italics. It's not there in the original Greek, but has been inserted at the whim of the translator.

In addition, where some versions use "AND" in this phrase, this is not necessarily the only way to translate that little word "kai" in Greek. The word "kai" can mean "namely", or "specifically" those who had pierced Him. In other words, "kai" is not always used with the meaning of "in addition to". That is only one of its functions.

Think about it. If "every eye" without exception on the entire planet was simultaneously seeing Christ's bodily return to the Mount of Olives, then what would be the point of inserting "and they also which pierced Him"? Wouldn't those who pierced Him already be included within the entire group of "every eye"? This makes no logical sense.

What does make sense is for John to say, "Behold He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see him, specifically (kai) those which pierced him". This pinpoints the category of "every eye" being the generation of Jews which had been the "betrayers and murderers" of Christ, and who had called down the blood guilt for Christ's death upon their own heads and that of their children. These would be doing the mourning when they saw that the One they had rejected really was their prophesied Messiah after all.

You are probably thinking that "all the tribes of the earth" includes every remote tribe on the planet from the jungle to the Arctic. Not so. The term "the earth" (tes ges) in Revelation is predominantly referring to the land of Israel itself. Most of the time in the OT when God speaks about "the earth" or "the land", He is speaking of the promised land of Canaan where the 12 tribes of Israel had settled. When John wanted to refer to the entire world at large in Revelation, he used the term "oikoumene" instead, which refers to the habitable world at large.

The "tribes of the earth" in Revelation are the same tribes referred to in the Zechariah 12:10 text, from which these exact words of prophecy in Revelation 2:7 were copied. The Zechariah context listed a few of those tribes and their families who would be mourning "in Jerusalem" (Zechariah 12:11): the house of David, Levi, the family of Nathan, and of Shimei. There is a specific reason why these particular mourning families and their wives are mentioned, and they point to the complete dissolution (after the AD 70 conflict) of the Temple, the priesthood, and all royal genealogical connections that might have descended from David. These were all eradicated by the end of AD 70, as God intended.

This is not a contradiction to John's and Zechariah's reference to the tribes mourning "in Jerusalem" particularly - not the entire world

I politely disagree with you. I think most Christians, and anyone really, agrees that Christ has not returned in the clouds with power and great glory.

Every tribe on the globe can certainly see him. Think of the sun and moon in the sky. They are visible all over. Yeshua won't just appear on the streets of Jerusalem. He will appear in the sky with power and great glory. Armies of angels will be with Him. This hasn't happened yet.

Torah Keeper · Dec 18, 2021

Acts29 said:
Did Antiochus cast some of the angels of heaven to the ground and trample them?

Possibly. If he was Satan in the flesh. Compare the King of Tyre passage in Ezekiel 28.

Acts29 · Dec 18, 2021

Trivalee said:
Since we both agree that the LH of Dan 7 is the Antichrist, I will cut to the chase and go straight to identify the LH of Dan 8. If you had followed the chronology of the beast kingdoms mentioned back in Dan 7:3 and then read Dan 8 in full you would have understood that Dan 8 focused on the 3rd beast - the he-goat - Alex the great's Greek kingdom.

In Dan 8:5-7 we see the he-goat (Alex the great) defeat the ram (Medo-Persia). In v8 we see his kingdom split into FOUR after his death. Verse 9 "OUT OF ONE OF THEM (one of the 4 kingdoms that rose from Alex the Great) came forth a little horn..." I don't know how you forced the Assyrians where they had no business in.

The four beast kingdoms are Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. Assyria is not part of it, therefore, it makes no sense to assume a beast will come from a kingdom that has been defunct for over 100 years to the time of Alexander the great's Greek dynasty portrayed in Dan 8.

Again, all of those are irrelevant to the kingdom of God. The Roman empire has been gone 1500 years. The rest even longer. Further, some of the beasts remain alive during the fourth beast. The time of the end means the time of the end. Those ancient kingdoms are meaningless.

3 Resurrections · Dec 18, 2021

Torah Keeper said:
Every tribe on the globe can certainly see him. Think of the sun and moon in the sky. They are visible all over. Yeshua won't just appear on the streets of Jerusalem. He will appear in the sky with power and great glory. Armies of angels will be with Him. This hasn't happened yet.

Zechariah 14:4-5 tells us that Christ would be returning to stand on the Mount of Olives on the east of Jerusalem. This would be in His glorified, resurrected body, which He retained ever since He ascended to heaven in Acts 1:9. The "tribes of the earth" would be mourning "in Jerusalem" when they saw His return. Specifically in Jerusalem, and specifically the tribes of Israel, which were still extant leading up to AD 70. If scripture narrows down the interpretation of these verses to specific, particular things, we are not at liberty to expand them to a universal audience just because we want to.

The armies of angels we are told in scripture are not ordinarily visible to mankind unless God wishes to grant that perception to people, just as He did at Elisha's request for his servant's sake. Scripture is chock full of examples where God limits people's perception of invisible things (Balaam's ass seeing what the prophet could not; people struck instantly with blindness, such as the men of Sodom, Paul, and Elymas; the resurrecting Christ leaving the closed tomb, which was unperceived by the guards just several feet away, the people listening to Christ hearing what some called thunder and some called an angel speaking to him, etc., etc. Others are granted a view of invisible things, while others are not granted this. Such as the one caught up to the third heaven, Moses being granted a limited view of God's glory, Abraham enduring as "seeing Him who is invisible", the martyr Stephen seeing Christ standing in heaven at his death, Samson's parents seeing the angel of the Lord, etc., etc.

If God through Zechariah 14:4-5 wrote that Christ would return to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, I believe Him. If Zechariah wrote that the tribes of the land of Israel would mourn when they saw His return from inside the besieged city of Jerusalem in AD 70, this is God's prerogative to narrow down a view of that occurrence to a particular audience. "Every eye" specifically of those who pierced Him who were "inside Jerusalem" saw His return before that first-century generation who killed their Messiah had passed away.

Trivalee · Jan 9, 2022

Torah Keeper said:
The goat was the symbol of Greece. Greek history, imagery, and place names are all about goats. Same with the ram for Persia.

And the little horn of Daniel 8 was Antiochus Epiphanes. This was fulfilled in Maccabees.

I agree with you. Unfortunately, there are some believers that ascribe the LH of Dan 8 to the future Antichrist which makes zero sense given that the escapades of this LH were fully chronicled by both religious and contemporary historians.

Trivalee · Jan 9, 2022

3 Resurrections said:
Zechariah 14:4-5 tells us that Christ would be returning to stand on the Mount of Olives on the east of Jerusalem. This would be in His glorified, resurrected body, which He retained ever since He ascended to heaven in Acts 1:9. The "tribes of the earth" would be mourning "in Jerusalem" when they saw His return. Specifically in Jerusalem, and specifically the tribes of Israel, which were still extant leading up to AD 70. If scripture narrows down the interpretation of these verses to specific, particular things, we are not at liberty to expand them to a universal audience just because we want to.

The armies of angels we are told in scripture are not ordinarily visible to mankind unless God wishes to grant that perception to people, just as He did at Elisha's request for his servant's sake. Scripture is chock full of examples where God limits people's perception of invisible things (Balaam's ass seeing what the prophet could not; people struck instantly with blindness, such as the men of Sodom, Paul, and Elymas; the resurrecting Christ leaving the closed tomb, which was unperceived by the guards just several feet away, the people listening to Christ hearing what some called thunder and some called an angel speaking to him, etc., etc. Others are granted a view of invisible things, while others are not granted this. Such as the one caught up to the third heaven, Moses being granted a limited view of God's glory, Abraham enduring as "seeing Him who is invisible", the martyr Stephen seeing Christ standing in heaven at his death, Samson's parents seeing the angel of the Lord, etc., etc.

If God through Zechariah 14:4-5 wrote that Christ would return to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, I believe Him. If Zechariah wrote that the tribes of the land of Israel would mourn when they saw His return from inside the besieged city of Jerusalem in AD 70, this is God's prerogative to narrow down a view of that occurrence to a particular audience. "Every eye" specifically of those who pierced Him who were "inside Jerusalem" saw His return before that first-century generation who killed their Messiah had passed away.

Your insistence on a secret and exclusive Jewish return of the Lord is in direct conflict with Jesus Christ's statement in Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Notice that the emboldened part of the text says that ALL THE TRIBES of the earth shall see the Lord coming in the clouds? There's no basis to claim that only the Jews will see him. To ensure there's no ambiguity, Jesus used a metaphor that is easily understood in v27 For as lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Lightning can never be hidden e.g. the lightning that precedes a thunder strike. Further, the reference to the east and west is indicative that Jesus was referring to the whole world.

There is further corroboration in Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Again, notice the salient points:

Every eye (not exclusive to the Jews) shall see him
All kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him

Trivalee · Jan 9, 2022

Acts29 said:
Again, all of those are irrelevant to the kingdom of God. The Roman empire has been gone 1500 years. The rest even longer. Further, some of the beasts remain alive during the fourth beast. The time of the end means the time of the end. Those ancient kingdoms are meaningless.

With your attitude to scripture, it's no surprise that you got it wrong. It is ludicrous to claim "the time of the end means the time of the end" without specifying which 'end' or era that is being specified. Because if you are referring to the end times, you couldn't be further from the truth.

3 Resurrections · Jan 9, 2022

Trivalee said:
Your insistence on a secret and exclusive Jewish return of the Lord is in direct conflict with Jesus Christ's statement in Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Notice that the emboldened part of the text says that ALL THE TRIBES of the earth shall see the Lord coming in the clouds? There's no basis to claim that only the Jews will see him. To ensure there's no ambiguity, Jesus used a metaphor that is easily understood in v27 For as lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Lightning can never be hidden e.g. the lightning that precedes a thunder strike. Further, the reference to the east and west is indicative that Jesus was referring to the whole world

I never said this was a secret coming. And if you think that a strike of lightening can be seen simultaneously halfway around the world, then you must know something about science that I've never heard of. Christ's return on the east side of Jerusalem would shine even unto the west side of Jerusalem

Jesus's return involves His resurrected body that ascended - roughly 5' 10", maybe - by ordinary standards of a male figure. We are told the location for that return, which was going to be the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. It was going to be the Israelite tribes of the EARTH (tes ges) - not the tribes of the world (oikoumene) - which would see Christ's return in Zechariah and Revelation 1:7. Some of those tribal members are mentioned specifically in that text of the houses and families of the Israelite tribes.

One reason we know this is not tribes of the world being spoken of in Zechariah 12:11-14 is that those mourning families would be mourning APART FROM EACH OTHER. The wives and husbands separated from each other. That is due to the laws of uncleanness that Israelite tribes followed. Uncleanness required for them to be separated without contact until their period of uncleanness was over. Jerusalem during this siege period of Zechariah 12 was going to be so saturated with plague, bloodshed, and dead bodies everywhere that every place in the city would become a place for separation. "In that day every place shall be opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for removal and for separation." (Zech. 13:1 LXX).

Trivalee · Jan 16, 2022

3 Resurrections said:
I never said this was a secret coming. And if you think that a strike of lightening can be seen simultaneously halfway around the world, then you must know something about science that I've never heard of. Christ's return on the east side of Jerusalem would shine even unto the west side of Jerusalem

Jesus's return involves His resurrected body that ascended - roughly 5' 10", maybe - by ordinary standards of a male figure. We are told the location for that return, which was going to be the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. It was going to be the Israelite tribes of the EARTH (tes ges) - not the tribes of the world (oikoumene) - which would see Christ's return in Zechariah and Revelation 1:7. Some of those tribal members are mentioned specifically in that text of the houses and families of the Israelite tribes.

One reason we know this is not tribes of the world being spoken of in Zechariah 12:11-14 is that those mourning families would be mourning APART FROM EACH OTHER. The wives and husbands separated from each other. That is due to the laws of uncleanness that Israelite tribes followed. Uncleanness required for them to be separated without contact until their period of uncleanness was over. Jerusalem during this siege period of Zechariah 12 was going to be so saturated with plague, bloodshed, and dead bodies everywhere that every place in the city would become a place for separation. "In that day every place shall be opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for removal and for separation." (Zech. 13:1 LXX).

You misunderstood the scriptures. The 'lightning' in Matt 24:27 is merely an analogy portraying that all (Jew and Gentile) will see the return of the Messiah because lightning cannot be hidden. There is zero scriptural support for an exclusive Jewish experience of the return of the Lord.

The whole world will see the Lord returning on the clouds with his army, but his foot will touch the earth on Mount Olives.

Unfortunately, you misplaced the timescale for Zech 12:11-14! The key is in the preceding verses, vide: 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. This will occur BEFORE the Lord returns. In his famous argument in defence of his people Israel, Paul reminded us (Gentiles) that partial blindness is still upon Israel.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

This partial blindness explains why some Jews from the Apostles to the present day Messianic Jews believe in Christ while the majority remain in unbelief. But Zecharia 12:10 explains this 'blindness' prophesied by Isaiah 6:9-10 will finally be lifted.

Zech 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

The above tells us exactly when the blindness is lifted in V-10. Hopefully, you will agree that verses 11-14 are the reaction to the event in v-10? It's important to understand the timescale and chronicle of these prophecies otherwise one ends up with a bad rendition as you have done. Zech 13:8-9 reveals the aftermath of the Antichrist's armies (the 'nations' is descriptive of its makeup) attack against Jerusalem.

The aftermath continues in Zech 14:2. The Jews have been defeated, their properties looted, their women raped and half of the city's inhabitants dispersed! Notice in v-3 that the Lord goes to war against the very army that destroyed Jerusalem, only this time the theatre of battle shifts to Armageddon. There, the Lord exacts revenge by wiping out the AC's army (Rev 19) and he and his false prophet are taken to the lake of fire and brimstone.

Back to the topic: all the tribes of the earth (Jew and Gentile) that survive the Great Tribulation will see the Lord returning in the air. It will be superfluous to reiterate what I already pointed out a week ago - Matt 24:30 & Rev 1:7 both declares that "all the kindred of the earth shall see him return". It beats common sense why you chose to ignore what is plain as day in scripture.

Trivalee · Jan 16, 2022

Acts29 said:
Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth one strong horn, and it grew very great toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the host: 10 and it magnified itself to the host of heaven; and there fell to the earth some of the host of heaven and of the stars, and they trampled on them. 11 And this shall be until the chief captain shall have delivered the captivity

Did Antiochus cast some of the angels of heaven to the ground and trample them?

There is not a single AC. There are many. The little horn in Daniel 8 is Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon at Nineveh, the man of sin.

The little horn in Daniel 7 is Mohammed, the false prophet, who will come up out of perdition/destruction. He is the son of perdition. Observe the word "believer" in Arabic. He will write this on their heads; the mark of the beast. When they stand up it will be upside down. A six laying prostrate before a six, and a six laying prostrate before an image. 666

مؤمن

Allah said Surah 27.An-Naml (The Ant) 82:
"And when the Word is fulfilled against them (the unjust), we shall produce from the earth a beast to (face) them: He will speak to them, for that mankind did not believe with assurance in Our Signs."

Ibn Jarir reported this from 'Ali and 'Ata' It was reported from Ibn 'Abbas that tukallimuhum means that the Beast will cut them, i e, it will write the word "Kafir" on the forehead of the unbeliever. It was also reported from Ibn 'Abbas that he will both address them and cut them

Abu Hurayrah said: "The Prophet said, 'Hasten to do good deeds before six things happen: the rising of the sun from the West, the smoke, the Dajjal, the Beast, the (death) of one of you or general tribulation.' " (Muslim.) Baridah said: "The Prophet took me to a place in the desert, near Makkah. It was a dry piece of land surrounded by sand. The Prophet said, 'The Beast will emerge from this place. It was a very small area.' " (Ibn Majah)

It was reported from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said, "The Beast of the Earth will emerge, and will have with it the rod of Moses and the ring of Solomon." It was also reported that he said, "(The Beast) will destroy the noses of the unbelievers with the ring, - so that people seated around one table will begin to address one another with the words "O Believer!" or "O Unbeliever!" (i e, everyone's status will become clear). (Ibn Majah.)

The Hajar al-Aswad was brought from Jannah and presented to Ebrahim (عليه السلام) to be placed on the corner of the Ka’bah. Ibn Abbas (رضي الله عنه) narrated that the Prophet (ﷺ) said: “The Black Stone came down from Paradise and it was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam turned it black.” [Tirmidhi]
Du’as are accepted at the Hajar al-Aswad and on the Day of Judgement it will testify in favour of all those who kissed it. The Prophet (ﷺ) said: “By Allah! On the Day of Qiyamah, Allah will present the Hajar al-Aswad in such a manner that it will have two eyes and a tongue to testify to the Imaan (faith) of all those who kissed it.” [Tirmidhi]

Revelation 13:15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

How many coincidences do we need?

Forgive me, but I will have to ignore your excerpts from the Koran since we are discussing Christian scripture. Your questions below lead me to understand that you made the common mistake that most people who can't separate the symbolic from the literal often make in interpreting prophecy.

and there fell to the earth some of the host of heaven and of the stars, and they trampled on them. 11 And this shall be until the chief captain shall have delivered the captivity
Did Antiochus cast some of the angels of heaven to the ground and trample them?

The book of Daniel and Revelation are the only books with the most flowery language in the bible. And it is understandable given they describe eschatological events. For example, the stars referenced here are not physical, therefore, there's no requirement to literally hurl them down to earth and trample on them - not in the past nor future!

1 John 1:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Notice the following: (a) Antichrist (singular, i.e. an individual) shall come - FUTURE (b) now (presently, in the world) there are many (plural) antichrists. The future Antichrist (singular) is the same in Dan 7 and Rev 13.

Muslims do not argue that Muhammed is prophesied in the bible!

3 Resurrections · Jan 16, 2022

Trivalee said:
Matt 24:30 & Rev 1:7 both declares that "all the kindred of the earth shall see him return".

The book of Revelation was written by a Jewish man. To the Jews, the term "THE EARTH" (tes ges) meant the land of Israel specifically - the promised land. Just as God addressed the land of Judah in Jeremiah 22:29. "Oh earth, earth, earth, hear the world of the Lord..." No man of Coniah's descent was going to live to rule in the land of Judah anymore.

The prophet Joel 2:18-20 also spoke of the Lord having pity on His people, and being jealous for "HIS LAND". "Fear not, O LAND; be glad and rejoice: for the Lord will do great things."

When Revelation spoke about the "tribes of the EARTH" mourning, this Jewish author John had in mind the tribes of the land of Israel that were going to be extant at that time - which they aren't anymore. You are reading Revelation from the perspective of a 21st century person when you propose that this term means "tribes of the entire world", which John was not saying. John was referencing Zechariah, who spoke of specific families and tribes of the land of Israel which were going to mourn. These particular tribes and families of the land of Israel are not around anymore today. The genealogical records were all burned up back in AD 66 at the beginning of the war with Rome, as God intended.

There is NO battle of Armageddon mentioned in Zechariah. In fact, there was never going to be a battle that would take place in Armageddon at all. The combatants for the war against Jerusalem and Judah would use that "Hill of Megiddo" (Har Megiddo) location for a staging ground for gathering their troops together, and would then spread out over the land of Israel from there on their way to attack Jerusalem.

The "nations" coming against Jerusalem came from "Galilee of the Gentiles" - the home base in the north of Israel for the Zealots in those first-century days (which was just a few miles from the "Hill of Megiddo" location). It was CIVIL WAR Zealot factions which weakened the nation internally so that they fell to the final Roman assault more easily. God destroyed all those Zealot factions which came against Jerusalem from "Galilee of the Gentiles". They each competed with and fought each other, which weakened them enough so that they were destroyed by the Romans at the close of the war in Jerusalem.

The little horns of Daniel 7 and 8

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That's 666 YEARS, folks

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That's 666 YEARS, folks

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That's 666 YEARS, folks

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That's 666 YEARS, folks

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