Whose Resurrection Doctrine should we believe?

Zao is life · Jan 15, 2022

3 Resurrections said:
The Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints of the "First resurrection" are an absolutely riveting subject to study in scripture. They are mentioned in more places than you would think. As of last count, I believe I had located at least a couple dozen texts which spoke about them and their activities in those NT days - until they left the planet.

Would you let us have those dozen or so references? Please?

3 Resurrections · Jan 15, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Also, do you believe the 144,000 in Revelation 7 and 14 are one and the same group?

Without a doubt, the 144,000 of Revelation 7 and Revelation 14 are one and the same group. Jewish children of faith only, raised from graves around Jerusalem that were opened by the earthquake at Christ's crucifixion, and who came from those various tribes listed (Dan and Ephraim excepted).

The 144,000 First-fruits are also in Revelation 14:14 as the "dried harvest", which the one like the newly-crowned Son of Man sitting on a cloud harvested with a sickle by Himself (no angelic assistants with this First resurrection). This crowned Son of Man "reaped the earth" (tes ges - the land of Israel...which "sickle" harvested the bodies of those 144,000 out of the ground that were "redeemed from the earth").

Those 144,000 Matthew 27:52-53 Firstfruits actually went into the city of Jerusalem and stood on Mount Zion (the actual Temple site) along with Christ - literally. We know that bodily, the newly-resurrected Christ was in Jerusalem that day visiting the disciples that evening (Luke 24:33-36). And we are told that the 144,000 "followed the Lamb wherever He went", so I have no doubt that Christ and the 144,000 resurrected Mathew 27 saints actually went into the Temple location and literally stood there assembled together at that time. In a city crammed with perhaps a couple million Passover celebrants, 144,000 resurrected individuals would truly have been "seen by many".

Zao is life · Jan 15, 2022

grafted branch said:
I think those in Matthew 27:52-53 are the 144,000 and they are called redeemed from the earth in Revelation 14:3. After Jesus arose in John 20:17, Jesus tells Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to the Father. I’m speculating here but I think the 144,000 followed the Lamb withersoever he went which was to the Father.

You are correct in that the Bible doesn’t clearly point out what eventually happened to those in Matthew 27:52-53 but it is appointed unto men once to die so I don’t think they died a second time.

@3 Resurrections I know we agree on the 144,000 but differ on what happens after they were resurrected. If you want to chime in here with your view that would be fine with me, it’s always good to get more than one perspective.

Copy @3 Resurrections
You guys are talking about interesting stuff here now. All new to me.

Here we go again: How many times have I had to ask myself, "Where have I been?"

Where have I been?

Zao is life · Jan 15, 2022

3 Resurrections said:
Without a doubt, the 144,000 of Revelation 7 and Revelation 14 are one and the same group. Jewish children of faith only, raised from graves around Jerusalem that were opened by the earthquake at Christ's crucifixion, and who came from those various tribes listed (Dan and Ephraim excepted).

The 144,000 First-fruits are also in Revelation 14:14 as the "dried harvest", which the one like the newly-crowned Son of Man sitting on a cloud harvested with a sickle by Himself (no angelic assistants with this First resurrection). This crowned Son of Man "reaped the earth" (tes ges - the land of Israel...which "sickle" harvested the bodies of those 144,000 out of the ground that were "redeemed from the earth").

Those 144,000 Matthew 27:52-53 Firstfruits actually went into the city of Jerusalem and stood on Mount Zion (the actual Temple site) along with Christ - literally. We know that bodily, the newly-resurrected Christ was in Jerusalem that day visiting the disciples that evening (Luke 24:33-36). And we are told that the 144,000 "followed the Lamb wherever He went", so I have no doubt that Christ and the 144,000 resurrected Mathew 27 saints actually went into the Temple location and literally stood there assembled together at that time. In a city crammed with perhaps a couple million Passover celebrants, 144,000 resurrected individuals would truly have been "seen by many".

Do we have statements in the New Testament as to Christ standing on Mount Zion/visiting the temple after His resurrection? Or is this an inference you are making after comparing scripture with scripture?

DavidPT · Jan 15, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I don't think that would be unfair. How long did Noah have to wait for his resurrection, assuming he rose on the day of firsfruits 7 days after our Passover Lamb died for us?

Why would anyone else have to wait less time "just because"? How about the first will be last and the last first?

I think God may work things as He pleases and I don't have any problem at all with the notion that those who were bodily resurrected just after Christ rose are bodily in heaven already.

Those who are not bodily in heaven are still in Christ, who IS bodily in heaven. Being "in Christ's bosom" (the way Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom) is enough for me. I wouldn't be jealous of those who are already bodily in heaven, especially because I know that my turn is coming.

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Looking at this passage a bit closer there appears to be some things defying logic. Verse 53 indicates they came out of their graves after His resurrection, yet His resurrection doesn't even involve any of these verses. How does one explain that? Verse 54 has the centurion watching Jesus as He died, not as He arose. It would be days later when He rises, and it would be when He is in His tomb. This is a bizarre passage, meaning some of it. And why isn't it also recorded in any of the parallel accounts?

3 Resurrections · Jan 15, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Would you let us have those dozen or so references? Please?

Sure, can do. But maybe I'd better put them in a post dedicated to that theme so as not to derail the theme of this particular post.

Zao is life · Jan 15, 2022

DavidPT said:
Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Looking at this passage a bit closer there appears to be some things defying logic. Verse 53 indicates they came out of their graves after His resurrection, yet His resurrection doesn't even involve any of these verses. How does one explain that? Verse 54 has the centurion watching Jesus as He died, not as He arose. It would be days later when He rises, and it would be when He is in His tomb. This is a bizarre passage, meaning some of it. And why isn't it also recorded in any of the parallel accounts?

"and coming out of the tomb after His resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many."
Matthew wrote his gospel quite a few years later. I would think he would have known by the time he wrote his gospel. I don't see why he would need to have mentioned Christ's resurrection in the same place he mentioned those who rose after the Lord's resurrection.

Zao is life · Jan 15, 2022

3 Resurrections said:
Sure, can do. But maybe I'd better put them in a post dedicated to that theme so as not to derail the theme of this particular post.

If you mean the theme of this particular thread, it does not matter. I started the thread, and my job is done. The theme is dealt with. I was showing that the New Testament does not teach the concept of a "spiritual resurrection" because each and every verse in the N.T that talks about the resurrection is unambiguously talking about the resurrection of the body.

So you can go ahead. The subject has already moved on from the OP

Zao is life · Jan 15, 2022

3 Resurrections said:
Sure, can do. But maybe I'd better put them in a post dedicated to that theme so as not to derail the theme of this particular post.

Obviously, if you want to start a new thread about it, I don't mind. But I also don't mind if you post that here. It's up to you.

DavidPT · Jan 15, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
"and coming out of the tomb after His resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many."
Matthew wrote his gospel quite a few years later. I would think he would have known by the time he wrote his gospel. I don't see why he would need to have mentioned Christ's resurrection in the same place he mentioned those who rose after the Lord's resurrection.

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

I guess it could mean that everything I have underlined involves that particular day, and what I don't have underlined is meaning days later because of what took place during what I have underlined. IOW, the events of that day only caused the graves to be opened at that time. Does that then mean no one bothered to close the graves back up from the time this happened until they arose days later? Apparently so.

Zao is life · Jan 15, 2022

3 Resurrections said:
Without a doubt, the 144,000 of Revelation 7 and Revelation 14 are one and the same group. Jewish children of faith only, raised from graves around Jerusalem that were opened by the earthquake at Christ's crucifixion, and who came from those various tribes listed (Dan and Ephraim excepted).

The 144,000 First-fruits are also in Revelation 14:14 as the "dried harvest", which the one like the newly-crowned Son of Man sitting on a cloud harvested with a sickle by Himself (no angelic assistants with this First resurrection). This crowned Son of Man "reaped the earth" (tes ges - the land of Israel...which "sickle" harvested the bodies of those 144,000 out of the ground that were "redeemed from the earth").

Those 144,000 Matthew 27:52-53 Firstfruits actually went into the city of Jerusalem and stood on Mount Zion (the actual Temple site) along with Christ - literally. We know that bodily, the newly-resurrected Christ was in Jerusalem that day visiting the disciples that evening (Luke 24:33-36). And we are told that the 144,000 "followed the Lamb wherever He went", so I have no doubt that Christ and the 144,000 resurrected Mathew 27 saints actually went into the Temple location and literally stood there assembled together at that time. In a city crammed with perhaps a couple million Passover celebrants, 144,000 resurrected individuals would truly have been "seen by many".

Makes me think of something Josephus wrote about the A.D 66-70 period:

CHARIOTS AND TROOPS OF SOLDIERS IN THEIR ARMOUR WERE SEEN RUNNING ABOUT AMONG THE CLOUDS, AND SURROUNDING CITIES.

QUOTE (from Josephus)
Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.
UNQUOTE

Zao is life · Jan 15, 2022

DavidPT said:
Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

I guess it could mean that everything I have underlined involves that particular day, and what I don't have underlined is meaning days later because of what took place during what I have underlined. IOW, the events of that day only caused the graves to be opened at that time. Does that then mean no one bothered to close the graves back up from the time this happened until they arose days later? Apparently so.

Ever heard of a "Markan Sandwich"? I noticed them long ago and I've found them all over biblical scripture: @DavidPT I laughed when I heard that scholars have been patting themselves on the backs because they discovered it in Mark's gospel. Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs.. the books of the prophets are full of Markan Sandwiches, i.e talking about a subject, interrupting the main subject with another subject, then returning to the first subject. I have a strong suspicion that Luke 21:20-24 is another Markan Sandwich.

It's a very, very, very common style in biblical scripture. @DavidPT Matthew does not have to write, "Oh, by the way, this took place a few days after this, and this a few days before that". He was familiar with biblical scripture and the way he wrote it would have been quite natural to him and his generation would not have thought it strange and asked questions like, "Oh, really? How many days later did the resurrection take place after the graves were opened?"

The graves may have been opened with the earthquake, but maybe they were not visible. Maybe they were tombs away from the city.

Maybe 1. Maybe 2. Maybe 3...

It's not necessary to have the finer details.

grafted branch · Jan 15, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Obviously, if you want to start a new thread about it, I don't mind. But I also don't mind if you post that here. It's up to you.

While we’re waiting for 3R to make a new tread I’ll give a brief explanation of why I think the 144,000 went to heaven shortly after they were resurrected.

In John 20:17 Jesus tells Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to the Father. In John 20:27 Thomas can thrust his hand into Jesus’s side. Jesus would’ve had to ascend to the Father and descend back to earth sometime in between these two events.

Some people interpret the word “touch” in John 20:17 as “cling to”, in other words Mary was not allowed to prevent Jesus from going. But in Luke 24:29 they were able to constrain Jesus. So there can be no doubt that Jesus did ascend to the Father and descend back to earth at some point.

The 144,000 follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. There is no evidence of anyone else ascending in Acts 1:9 except Jesus. So I conclude that they went to heaven shortly after their resurrection.

3R has done a lot of research on this and does see things differently than me but I just thought I would throw my two cents in for what it’s worth.

3 Resurrections · Jan 15, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
So you can go ahead. The subject has already moved on from the OP

Okay, will do. Ask and ye shall receive...

So, here's kind of a bare-bones list of most (not all) of the texts that refer to the identity and activity of the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected Jewish saints. Matthew is not the only one who wrote about them or predicted their coming.

Leviticus 23:10-12 - The "Sheaf Handful" of barley First-fruits, offered along with a single he-lamb without blemish. This was a picture foreshadowing "Christ the First-fruits" as the Passover Lamb and the many Matthew 27:52-53 saints resurrected that day by Christ.

Psalms 68:18-20 - The "multitude of captives" which would be led by the ascending Christ, and be received as "gifts for men". This text attributes to God the power of bringing about "the exodus from death".

Matthew 9:37-38 - The "laborers" sent into the harvest. In Christ's days, the "fields" were already white, and ripe for "harvesting". Christ told the disciples to pray the Lord of the harvest to "send forth laborers" into that harvest. When the group of Matthew 27:52-53 saints were raised and given as "gifts to men" (apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers), this was an answer to that prayer, and a real benefit to the disciples' evangelistic efforts in those days. This resurrected group would have had evangelistic capabilities far beyond that of normal living believers hampered by weakness, aging bodies, sickness, death, sinful temptations, dependent children, wives' and husbands' needs, etc.

Matthew 24:24 - The "elect" which could not be deceived. Though intense deception would be rife in those days surrounding the "Great Tribulation", with "false Christs" and "false prophets" leading many astray, it wasn't even possible for these resurrected "elect" saints in a state of incorruptibility to be deceived by this.

Ephesians 4:8-13 - The "multitude of captives" led out of the grave by the ascending Christ, and given as "gifts for men" in those first-century days. They would act in the roles of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers to help build up the early church, until they all came into the state of a "perfected man".

Hebrews 12:22-23 - The "spirits of just men made perfect". These perfected, just men in the early church had been "perfected" in the same sense that Jesus was "made perfect" in His bodily-resurrected state (Hebrews 5:9). These "perfected", just men were also called "the assembly of the first-born", and the "myriads of messengers" (of the resurrected human variety) who were "enrolled in heaven" - but who had not bodily arrived there yet.

Hebrews 13:1 - The "strangers" or "messengers" entertained unawares by the early church ("messengers" of the human variety). These "strangers" 3 John 1:5-7 said were going forth unto the Gentiles, taking nothing from them for their ministry. One of the criteria for admitting widows into the assembly for financial support was if they had entertained these "strangers" in their home. Gaius was commended in the church by these "strangers" for his charity in supporting their mission.

Hebrews 12:1 - The "cloud of witnesses" surrounding the early church. This was a great number of witnesses bodily present in the assemblies, similar to the other faithful ones who had also died and had just been listed in the "Hall of Faith". These others had not been "made perfect" yet, but would receive the "better resurrection" along with the Hebrews believers who would be "made perfect" along with them, just like the "cloud of witnesses" who had already been perfected with a bodily resurrection.

Romans 8:23 - The "First-fruits of the Spirit". This is not the "fruit of the Spirit". Paul said the church had these "First-fruits" among them (who came from the 144,000 First-fruits group). These "First-fruits" were also patiently waiting along with the rest of the believers for Christ's return. This would bring about the hoped-for redemption of the rest of the believers' bodies in the next bodily resurrection event, when the First-fruits would join them in meeting the Lord together in the air.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 - The "alive and remaining" saints. These saints had already been made alive by a resurrection process, (like Lazarus and Dorcas and the 144,000 First-fruits), but Paul said they had "remained" on earth until that time in a sort of sealed, reserved status. They were waiting on the next, second resurrection event, when they would together meet the Lord in the air with the other newly-resurrected saints. Only resurrected individuals would take part in this "rapture" - there would be no so-called "translated" living believers included, since that would contradict Hebrews 9:27 where it is "appointed unto men once to die, and after that the judgment."

John 5:25 - The "hour is coming" when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God. Jesus told the Jews that "the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live." In those days, the disciples and Christ were bodily raising people from the dead (the "now is" part of His statement). Yet an hour was coming in which the dead would live after hearing the voice of the Son of God (the Matthew 27 resurrected saints). Yet as marvelous as that was, there would be another hour coming in which ALL of the dead in the graves (John 5:28-29) would hear the voice of the Son of God - not just the many righteous Matthew 27 saints. Hymeneus and Philetus' heresy mistook this past, "first resurrection" of the Matthew 27 saints as being the only bodily resurrection that would ever take place.

Matthew 20:16 - "The last shall be first, and the first last". In the parable about the servants which served a full day compared to those who served only an hour, they all received the same reward for their service. This was a parable about the resurrection. No matter what point of history, or how rigorously God's servants were tasked to serve Him, and for whatever varying lengths of time, they all would receive the same reward of a bodily resurrection. The "first" group to be resurrected (the Matthew 27 saints) would not get to heaven first. They would have to wait and "remain" on the earth until the other dead saints in the grave had been raised from the dead. Then and only then would they be caught up, and together "meet the Lord in the air". The "last" to rise from the dead would be the "first" to be raptured, and the "first" to be resurrected would be the "last" to be caught up.

Luke 18:6-8 - The "elect" begging for vengeance. In this context about the unjust judge parable, Christ was comparing it to the patient waiting of those martyred saints who were persistently begging God for vengeance for their shed blood. Christ said He was going to avenge them "speedily". We see this same martyred group of souls again under the altar in ...

Revelation 6:9-11 - The martyred souls under the altar. Martyred for the word of God, these souls were begging God's vengeance for their shed blood. White robes (representing the righteousness of a perfected, resurrected body) were given to each one of them (to the Matthew 27:52-53 saints). They were then told to "rest for a little season" (when Satan was loosed for his "little season" starting in AD 33 at the end of the millennium) until the rest of their brethren who were about to be martyred, just as they were, had been accomplished. Heavy persecution of the church by the Jewish leadership under Saul started then, on the very day of Stephen's martyrdom, with sporadic outbreaks all during those first-century years.

Revelation 7:2-8 - The sealing of the 144,000 from Jewish tribes. This was a literal as well as a symbolic number of Jewish tribal members raised from those opened graves around Jerusalem in AD 33. These were sealed by the living God as a sign that they had a protected, reserved status during the coming days of tribulation for that first-century generation.

Revelation 12:17 - The "remnant of the woman's Seed". Since the Dragon's persecution of the early church was temporarily swallowed up with Paul's remarkable conversion, in great anger, Satan went instead to make war during his "little season" with the remnant of the woman's Seed (Christ the "Seed"). These were the ones keeping the commandments of God and that had the testimony of Jesus to spread with their evangelism. This word "remnant" crops up again several times in reference to the Matthew 27 saints.

Revelation 11:13 - The righteous "remnant" giving glory to God in Jerusalem. Inside Jerusalem during this sixth trumpet judgment, there was a "remnant" which glorified God for His judgments taking place in the city at that time. The others were not repenting of their wicked actions, but this righteous "remnant" was glorifying God for seeing His judgments take place within the city.

Revelation 14:1-5 - The 144,000 First-fruits described in detail. "Virgins", since there is no marriage in the resurrected state. "Not defiled by women", since the cult of "Jezebel" and the sensual "doctrine of Balaam" was corrupting many in the church in those days - but not these resurrected Matthew 27 First-fruits resurrected saints. "Redeemed from the earth" because these Matthew 27 saints had received the "redemption of the body" already by being raised out of the ground from those graves around Jerusalem. "No guile in their mouth" and "without fault before the throne of God" because resurrected saints cannot possibly utter a lie, and are in a state of sinless perfection. The "First-fruits unto God and to the Lamb" because they were part of the "First resurrection" event along with "Christ the First-fruits". The Matthew 27 saints "followed the Lamb" everywhere He went on earth during those 40 days before He finally ascended in Acts 1:9 - leaving them to "remain" on the earth for a "little season".

Revelation 14:14 - The "dried harvest" of the earth, reaped by the ascended Christ. The one sitting on a cloud like the Son of Man with a single crown on His head (of His newly-ordained high priesthood) held a sharp sickle with which He reaped the dried harvest of the earth. No angels assisted with this "harvest" of the earth (tes ges - the land of Israel). Christ alone reaped this harvest, as the ascending Christ alone brought those Matthew 27:52-53 saints out of their Jerusalem graves on His resurrection day.

Revelation 14:10 - The "holy messengers" along with the Lamb (of the human variety of messengers). Both the Lamb and these "messengers" were directly in the presence of those being tormented with fire and brimstone. The Lake of Fire (the "Second Death") being the "furnace of fire" in the city of Jerusalem which God used to destroy the city and the temple down to the ground for the second time. The "remnant" of the sealed 144,000 present within Jerusalem during its last state could not be hurt in any way by the "Second Death" conditions within the disintegrating city. Whether by starvation, plague, fire, sword, or demonic oppression, they were immune to being hurt by any of these things. God mercifully used these indestructible evangelists to offer the gospel to those within Jerusalem up to the very last minute.

Revelation 20:4-6 - The "remnant of the dead" called the "First resurrection". During the faithful saints' natural lifetime on earth at varying times of the millennium years, some had been martyred (like the prophets Jezebel slew); some had served faithfully until death and died naturally (like Daniel); and some had not given homage to the Beast in any way (like those Antiochus Epiphanes slew for being faithful to the Mosaic law). All these saints in their turn had demonstrated their faith in various ways at some point of "living and reigning with Christ" during those literal thousand years of the millennium (from 968 / 967 BC until AD 33).

But the comparatively small portion of all these dead saints, the ones called "the remnant of the dead" (aka the "First resurrection"), did not come to life again in that resurrection until the millennium was finished. This means the millennium "expired" when the AD 33 "First resurrection" of Christ and the Matthew 27 First-fruits had occurred. It had been a literal thousand years of a physical temple worship system, which was phased out in AD 33 when Christ became the "chief cornerstone" of the temple not made with hands.

An infuriated Satan was then loosed at that point from his millennial chain, and went out to do battle with the indestructible "remnant of the Woman's Seed" - the Matthew 27 saints which had "remained" on the earth. This is why John warned the believers in Revelation 12:12 that Satan's "short time" of being loosed and coming down to the earth in great wrath had already begun back then. But neither Satan's wrath nor the "Second Death" / Lake of Fire conditions in Jerusalem had any power over this sealed "remnant of the dead". They had a task to accomplish which no other group had ever been given. This is why the 144,000 were the only ones who could "learn that song", because their experience was a unique one in all of human history.

Revelation 20:9 - The "camp of the saints" inside Jerusalem, the "beloved city". The Devil was going to deceive the nations in the four quarters of the earth (the "four corners" of the land of Israel - Ezekiel 7:2) to gather them to battle. These deceived nations would come to simultaneously surround both the "camp of the saints" and the city of Jerusalem with the righteous "remnant" of the saints inside it, who were carrying out their evangelistic task up until the last minute.

Revelation 15:8 - The first permitted entry of resurrected mankind into heaven's temple. When the last of the 7 trumpets had been fulfilled, for the first time ever, resurrected mankind was allowed access into heaven's temple. Until that time, Christ had been the only one to be able to stand in God's presence in a resurrected human form as the "First-born" and the "First-begotten". He was the first ascended one to make the way possible for all the rest of His siblings to be "presented faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy". This was when the Matthew 27:52-53, resurrected 144,000 First-fruits saints would finally receive their well-earned reward for their "little season" of faithful service.

Timtofly · Jan 15, 2022

DavidPT said:
Too bad you're unable to be objective about this subject. If the first resurrection is bodily, that means it is already decided before one is even raised from the dead, as to whether they are saved or not. That means once they have part in the first resurrection they can never lose part in it, regardless that NOSAS is Biblical. Throw in Amil here and if assuming NOSAS, this indicates that those in Revelation 20:6 can be blessed and holy one minute, and that the 2nd death can have no power over them one minute, but the next minute, none of these things are any longer true. Which also means, though Revelation 20:6 indicates that everyone that has part in the first resurrection, they reign with Christ a thousand years, obviously meaning until the thousand years expire, but what if one falls away during the thousand years then dies before the thousand years even expires? How does even that not contradict the text?

There is only one way Amil can possibly be Biblical. And that is--OSAS is Biblical and NOSAS is not. I 100% disagree that NOSAS is not Biblical. OSAS means no one can lose their salvation. NOSAS means some can lose their salvation which obviously also means many can't lose their salvation. OSAS denies NOSAS. NOSAS only denies OSAS in some cases not all cases, therefore NOSAS is the more reasonable position of the two, and not only that, it is the only position of the two that actually agrees with the Bible. And since you are of the NOSAS camp rather than the OSAS camp, I will never understand how you can think two opposing views, Amil's version of the first resurrection and NOSAS are somehow compatable?

Premil's version of the first resurrection is not affected by OSAS nor NOSAS. It doesn't matter which of those two positions is the correct one and which one is the incorrect one, one's salvation would already be determined before one is even resurrected. Which means that anyone who doesn't remain saved until their dying breath, these never have part in the first resurrection nor ever did since the first resurrection is meaning after they have died, not before they died.

You know Amil do not even accept most of what Revelation 20 is about, just that it is a place holder of words, but really no information at all.

Timtofly · Jan 15, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
Nothing that I can see. Does the second death have power over you, right now David? I guarantee that it has no power over me right now. If you agree that it doesn't have any power over us right now, then it's your belief that the second death can not have power over someone one minute but then have power over them the next minute. How is that any different than what you're saying about how I interpret Revelation 20:6?

Of course it does the way Revelation 20:4-6 puts it. We have not even physically died nor have been physically ressurected.

The verse declares those who have had part in the first resurrection.

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

The reason the church has power over the second death is the second birth. Those who accept the second birth technically never taste death ever, but convincing people of that is a totally different animal.

You all, both Premil and Amil, are so set in theology and biased, any attempt to convince one that physical death is not death at all, not even sleep, seems a waste of time. It is the soul exchanging bodies immediately. It is actually being more alive than one is now in our condition. Since even though spiritually born into the family of God, we carry Adam's dead flesh and blood.

The NOSAS camp think one can spiritually die out of God's family. That is the second death, the LOF they burden themselves with. They would have to be so reprobate in their thinking that their names will be stricken from the Lamb's book of life and they will be sealed with the mark of the beast.

So the church is not affected by the second death because of the second birth, which no one can actually die out of. Any one reprobate, never wanted the second birth to begin with.

Those in Revelation 20:4 are not the church glorified. They physically did die, their head was chopped off. They did not immediately enter their new physical bodies, unless an angel literally transported them through time to that physical resurrection. Their souls obviously did not join the church in Paradise and glorified. They only had a physical resurrection as a group one time. Only that physical resurrection in Revelation 20:4 can apply to those certain souls, because it was a physical resurrection and not the second birth.

That is why Amil are wrong in conflating this future resurrection with the second birth of the Atonement of The Cross and Christ’s resurrection.

Timtofly · Jan 15, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Just as it's 100% clear in the New Testament that spiritual regeneration is through the spiritual birth (γεννάω gennáō) from above by the Spirit and is the prerequisite for the resurrection of the body with (synegeírō) Christ’s resurrection, so it's also 100% clear that without exception every passage and verse in the New Testament that talks about the Resurrection is unambiguously talking about the resurrection of the body [σῶμα sōma] from the dead.

Those beheaded after the Second Coming have not been spiritually born from above. Amil are just as confused, because they do not put these people dying after the Second Coming. According to Amil, literally no one can physically die after the Second Coming. All death takes place immediately before or at the Second Coming. There is no after the Second Coming.

Amil will say that is only because premill are biased and Revelation 20:4 actually happened at the Cross in the first century, not after the Second Coming. Amil are biased and see nothing happening after the Second Coming relating to death, even though the GWT is after, but that is not even a resurrection. Yet contrary to their bias, they claim this is the last resurrection, even though it is after the Second Coming and called the second death.

klutedavid · Jan 15, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Scroll down to beneath the image
View attachment 310982

THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD

This post and be viewed & downloaded in PDF, EPUB, Microsoft Word or Open Office Document format HERE (click)

Agnosmillennialist signing on.

"Agnosmillennialism" =

(i) I don't know whether or not Revelation 20's thousand years is a literal thousand years that follows the return of Christ.
(ii) I don't know whether or not Revelation 20's thousand years is a literal thousand years that precedes the return of Christ.
(iii) I don't know whether or not Revelation 20's thousand years is symbolic for the entire Age that precedes the return of Christ.

This post was very, very hard work, because I had to compile a complete and comprehensive list of each and every New Testament passage and verse that talks about the resurrection. As you will see when I provide the list below, it's very long.

THE GREEK WORDS FOUND IN THE VERSES LISTED ON THIS PAGE:

Noun: ἀνάστασις anástasis (“The Resurrection”)
A standing up again, i.e. (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, genitive case or by implication, (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth):--raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the dead, that should rise, rising again.

Noun: ἔγερσις égersis:
a resurgence (from death):--resurrection.

Verb: ἐγείρω egeírō: *
To waken (transitively or intransitively), i.e. rouse (literally, from sleep, from sitting or lying, from disease, from death; or figuratively, from obscurity, inactivity, ruins, nonexistence):--awake, lift (up), raise (again, up), rear up, (a-)rise (again, up), stand, take up.

Verb: ἀνίστημι anístēmi: *
To stand up (literal or figurative, transitive or intransitive):--arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up(-right).

* The verbs are sometimes employed for normal use, for example as in "Rise up! Let's go!", but the nouns are always talking about the resurrection from the dead.

συνεγείρω (synegeírō): Risen with Christ
The Greek word egeírō (ἐγείρω) is one of the the verbs found in the New Testament, very often used in reference to the bodily rising again from death. When syn appears prefixed to egeírō (synegeírō), it shows that the resurrection of the individual believer in Christ is something which occurs with Christ's resurrection. It's the same prefix we get with words like synthesis and synchronize.

FIRST UP: JESUS AND PAUL'S TEACHINGS ON THE RESURRECTION:

Jesus:

John 6:39, 40 & 44 ἀνίστημι anístēmi:
"And this is the will of Him who sent me, that every one who is beholding the Son, and is believing in him, may have life age-during; and I will [ἀνίστημι anístēmi] raise him up in the last day."

John 11:23-25 ἀνίστημι anístēmi, ἀνάστασις anástasis:
“Jesus said to her, Your brother shall [anístēmi] rise again. Martha said to Him, I know that he shall [ἀνίστημι anístēmi] in the [ἀνάστασις anástasis] resurrection at the last day.
Jesus said to her, I am the [ἀνάστασις anástasis] Resurrection and the Life! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live.”
Paul’s teaching on the resurrection:

Paul's doctrine regarding the Resurrection from the dead
(1 Corinthians 15:4; 12-23, 35-36, 42-45, 50-57):

The following words related to the resurrection appear in the passage to follow:-

ἀνάστασις anástasis
ἐγείρω egeírō
ἀπαρχή aparchḗ (first-fruits)
κοιμάω koimáō (sleep in death)
ζωοποιέω zōopoiéō (vitalize, re-vitalize,give life, quicken)
ἔπειτα épeita (afterward)
παρουσία parousía (appearance of Christ at his return)
σῶμα sōma (the body)

"..and that He was buried, and that He rose again [ἐγείρω egeírō] the third day according to the Scriptures;..

"But if Christ is proclaimed, that He was [ἐγείρω egeírō] raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no [ἀνάστασις anástasis] resurrection of the dead?

But if there is no [ἀνάστασις anástasis] resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been [ἐγείρω egeírō] raised.

And if Christ has not been [ἐγείρω egeírō] raised, then our proclamation is worthless, and your faith is also worthless.

And we are also found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified of God that He [ἐγείρω egeírō] raised Christ; whom He did not [ἐγείρω egeírō] raise if the dead are not [ἐγείρω egeírō] raised.

For if the dead are not [ἐγείρω egeírō] raised, then Christ is not [ἐγείρω egeírō] raised.

And if Christ is not [ἐγείρω egeírō] raised, your faith is foolish; you are yet in your sins.

Then also those that [κοιμάω koimáō] fell asleep in Christ were lost. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

But now Christ has [ἐγείρω egeírō] risen from the dead, and has become the [ἀπαρχή aparchḗ] firstfruit of those who [κοιμάω koimáō] slept.

For since death is through man, the [ἀνάστασις anástasis] resurrection of the dead also is through a Man.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be [ζωοποιέω zōopoiéō] made alive.

But each in his own order: Christ the [ἀπαρχή aparchḗ ] first-fruit, and [ἔπειτα épeita] afterward they who are Christ's at His [παρουσία parousía] coming.

If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead [ἐγείρω egeírō] rise not? let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we die.

But someone will say, How are the dead raised up, and with what [σῶμα sōma] body do they come?

Foolish one! What you sow is not [ζωοποιέω zōopoiéō] made alive unless it dies.

So also the [ἀνάστασις anástasis] resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is [ἐγείρω egeírō] raised in incorruption; it is sown in dishonor, it is [ἐγείρω egeírō] raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is [ἐγείρω egeírō] raised in power; it is sown a natural [σῶμα sōma] body, it is raised a spiritual [σῶμα sōma] body. There is a natural [σῶμα sōma] body, and there is a spiritual [σῶμα sōma] body. And so it is written, "The first man, Adam, was made a living soul," the last Adam was a life-giving Spirit.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

But when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and when this mortal shall put on immortality, then will take place the word that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?"

And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed; in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be [ἐγείρω egeírō] raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed."

BELOW FOLLOWS ALL THE OTHER VERSES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT THAT TALK ABOUT THE RESURRECTION

* Each verse is quoted in the table which appears under the text in the document for which the link is provided at the top and bottom of this post.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Matthew 22:23; Matthew 22:30; Matthew 22:31; Mark 12:18; Mark 12:23; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:27; Luke 20:33; Luke 20:35-36; Matthew 22:28; Matthew 27:52-53; Matthew 10:8; Matthew 11:5; Luke 7:22; Luke 7:14; Matthew 17:9; Matthew 20:19; Matthew 9:25; Luke 8:54; Matthew 14:2; Matthew 16:21; Luke 9:22; Matthew 17:23; Matthew 26:32; Mark 14:28; Matthew 27:52-53; Matthew 27:63-64; Matthew 28:6-7; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:6; Luke 24:34; Mark 16:14; Mark 6:14, Mark 6:16; Luke 9:7; Luke 14:13-14; Luke 20:37; John 2:19-21; John 5:21; John 12:1, John 12:9; John 12:17; John 5:28-29; John 21:14; Acts 1:22; Acts 2:24; Acts 2:31-32; Acts 3:15; Acts 3:26; Acts 4:1-2; Acts 4:10; Acts 4:33; Acts 5:30; Acts 10:40; Acts 13:30; Acts 13:33-37; Acts 17:18, Acts 17:31-32; Acts 23:6-8; Acts 24:15; Acts 24:21; Acts 26:8; Romans 1:4; Romans 4:23-25; Romans 6:4-5; Romans 6:9; Romans 7:4; Romans 8:11; Romans 8:34; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 6:14; 2 Corinthians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 4:14; 2 Corinthians 5:15; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:20; Ephesians 2:5-6; Ephesians 5:14; Philippians 3:10-11; Colossians 2:12-13; Colossians 3:1 (Compare with Romans 6:5); 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16; 2 Timothy 2:8; 2 Timothy 2:16-18; Hebrews 6:1-2; Hebrews 11:35; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 1 Peter 1:21; 1 Peter 3:18; 1 Peter 3:21; Revelation 20:4-6.

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The list above is comprehensive. Without exception each and every passage and verse in the New Testament which talks about the resurrection (rising again), is talking about the resurrection of the body (σῶμα sōma) from the dead, in the day that the body is raised a spiritual body.

Key verses:

John 2
19 Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise [ἐγείρω egeírō] it up.
20 Then the Jews said, This temple was forty-six years building, and will you rear it up [ἐγείρω egeírō] in three days?
21 But He spoke of the temple of His body [σῶμα sōma].

The above, followed by the verses below, is the key if you want to know whose resurrection doctrine to believe.

Colossians 3
1 If then you were raised with [συνεγείρω synegeírō] Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God.
2 Be mindful of things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For you died, and your life has been hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ our Life is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

1 Corinthians 15
20 But now Christ has risen [ἐγείρω egeírō] from the dead [νεκρός nekrós], and has become the firstfruit of those who slept.
21 For since death is through man, the resurrection [ἀνάστασις anástasis] of the dead also is through a Man.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead [νεκρός nekrós] in Christ shall rise [ἀνίστημι anístēmi] first [πρῶτον prōton].
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Spiritual regeneration (through spiritual birth from above by the Spirit), is the prerequisite for the resurrection of the body:

Just as new birth (γεννάω gennáō) from above relates to Spirit (πνεῦμα pneûma), every single passage and verse in the New Testament that talks about the Resurrection relates to the dead body [σῶμα sōma]:

"That which is gennáō (born) of the flesh is flesh; and that which is gennáō (born) of pneûma (the Spirit) is pneûma.” (John 3:6).

John 6:63 "It is the Spirit that makes alive [ζωοποιέω zōopoiéō] the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life."

1 Peter 1:3 says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has begotten us again to a living hope (Greek: záō elpís) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."

A. The word translated into "begotten us again" in the above verse is anagennáō. It's a combination of the words gennáō (beget) and aná (again):

B. Living hope (záō elpís): The word záō means to live, and the word elpís means to anticipate:

Just as Adam became a living soul when God breathed life into Him, so those who are born of the Spirit from above are now spiritually alive, and live in the hope (anticipation) of their bodily resurrection from the dead, which comes by Christ's resurrection from the dead.

This is confirmed again by Paul in Titus 3:5: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit".

The word "regeneration" in the above verse is a translation of the Greek word palingenesía [StrongsGreek G03824]. It's a combination of the words pálin (anew) and génesis (i.e generation).

Thayer's dictionary:
new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration.

The word is also found in Matthew 19:28:

“And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

Those who have been born of the Spirit from above are in Christ, who died in the flesh and was raised again from the dead, therefore those who are baptized by the Spirit of God into Christ (through new birth) have therefore also died with Christ and are raised with Christ (because they are now in Christ, and He in them):

"If you then be risen with [συνεγείρω synegeírō] Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is seated on the right hand of God." (Colossians 3:1).

"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection:" (Romans 6:5).

It's totally obvious that Jesus' resurrection is the first resurrection:

First (Greek) πρῶτον prōton:-

Acts 26:23
"That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first (πρῶτον prōton) that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

Revelation 20:6
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first (πρῶτον prōton) resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

New Testament concepts regarding death and resurrection:

1. Adam's death, which came to all mankind.
2. Christ's Resurrection. He IS the Resurrection and the life. Those who are raised are raised with (synegeírō) Christ.
3. The second death.

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THE ONLY BIBLICAL, SOUND AND CORRECT CONCLUSION

Just as it's 100% clear in the New Testament that spiritual regeneration is through the spiritual birth (γεννάω gennáō) from above by the Spirit and is the prerequisite for the resurrection of the body with (synegeírō) Christ’s resurrection, so it's also 100% clear that every single passage and verse in the New Testament that talks about the Resurrection is talking about the resurrection of the body [σῶμα sōma] from the dead.

Therefore the term " spiritual 'resurrection' " does not apply to any passages or verses in the New Testament which talk about the resurrection.

.. unless Revelation 20:4-6 is the only exception in the entire New Testament.

If (IF) the resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6 is literal, then it either took place in the days following the death of Nero on June 9th, A.D 68, or it's still coming.

Or Revelation 20:4-6 is the only exception in the entire New Testament.

Agnosmillennialist signing off.

This post and be viewed & downloaded in PDF, EPUB, Microsoft Word or Open Office Document format HERE (click)

That is an enormous amount of work. You are a driven man.

Alas, I am already seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.

I care not for interpretations or viewpoints in eschatology.

Timtofly · Jan 16, 2022

3 Resurrections said:
Yes, it definitely was. I'm with you on this one. That was a "remnant of the dead" which came to life again at that time, and was called "the First Resurrection".

How many besides John the Baptist lost their heads? So John the Baptist is still alive on earth today, or did he leave after 1000 years?

Timtofly · Jan 16, 2022

grafted branch said:
Yes, I think the resurrection in Matthew 27:52-53 gets overlooked far too often.

To me the first resurrection in Revelation 20:5 is an event that encompassed both Christ and those in Matthew 27.

There definitely can’t be any future resurrection that’s called the first resurrection.

Matthew 27's resurrection at the Cross was the Last Day resurrection of all OT redeemed. They left Abraham's bosom and ascended to heaven with Christ on Sunday.

All the redeemed left their graves that day in physical bodies. In fact, permanent incorruptible physical bodies. Not glorified, because glorification happens at the Second Coming when both the OT and NT meet in midair and are glorified at the same time.

So any verses in the OT or Gospels concerning the Last Day resurrection, was fulfilled at the Cross. No more Last Day resurrections ever, because none of the epistles to the churches talked about a last day resurrection but a rapture and meeting Christ in the air event. The dead in Christ rising first is an ongoing phenomenon, because no one after the Cross could even taste death, much less be resurrected from it. Now those in Revelation 20:4 are beheaded after the Second Coming. They physically die and are physically resurrected later. But that was the first day of the millennium, not a last day resurrection.

Of course after 1991 years, the majority of the church is already present in Paradise, and waiting for the rest of us still alive on earth to be changed.

Whose Resurrection Doctrine should we believe?

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That's 666 YEARS, folks

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That's 666 YEARS, folks

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That's 666 YEARS, folks

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