Can Salvation be lost?

FreeGrace2

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BobRyan said:
Because in my illustration I use "having the real ticket" as "having salvation" (the first point in a saved person's life -- obviously)
And I use "raptured to heaven" as another step/stage/event (second poiny) in a saved person's life - and so not claiming the rapture is "the moment a person is saved".
I can put bullet points on them if you prefer.
Where in the Bible do you find any mention of a "rapture to heaven"? That certainly is the common view of most Christians regarding "the rapture". But where does the Bible describe that?

In fact, there are NO verses that make this point or claim. None.

Rather, the Bible clearly presents the resurrection, which would include a 'rapture', as being a single event, not several, or a series of events.

Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14 and Acts 24:15 all speak of the resurrection in the singular.

So does 1 Cor 15:23, and specifically included ALL believers from ALL time periods.

And Rev 20:4,5 clearly describes the resurrection of Trib martyrs as the FIRST resurrection.

Oh, and btw, Acts 24:15 clearly shows there will be one resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved. That's 2 TOTAL. So Rev 20:5 doesn't teach that there will be another resurrection for the saved. There is only one. And it will occur "when He comes" a reference to the Second Advent in 1 Cor 15:23 and in 2 Thess 2:1, again including the gathering (rapture) with the Second Advent of Christ.

If you disagree, please address the verses I have cited and prove that they say something other than there is only 1 resurrection for the saved and 1 for the lost.

I would greatly appreciate it. I don't want to misread Scripture any more than you do.
 
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BobRyan

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Where in the Bible do you find any mention of a "rapture to heaven"?

God takes the saints to heaven...

Saints are taken to heaven at the Rev 19 appearing of Christ


John 14
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

"I Go to prepare a place for you, and if I go I will come again and receive you to Myself so that where I am there you may be also"

Matt 6 "Our Father who is IN HEAVEN"

Matt 5:12 "For GREAT is your reward in Heaven"
1Peter 1:4 Our inheritance is IN Heaven

Phil 1:23 Our citizenship in Heaven – from which we eagerly await Jesus


2 Timothy 4:18
The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.


Matt 5:10 "For yours is the Kingdom of Heaven"
Matt 6:10 "Lay up for YOURSELVES treasure in Heaven"

Heb 11:

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he left, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as a stranger in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. ....

13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen and welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country which they left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one.

Two distinct points in the saved person's life - not one.

1 Cor 15: 19 If we have hoped in Christ only in this life, we are of all people most to be pitied.

==================

That certainly is the common view of most Christians regarding "the rapture".

But where does the Bible describe that?

In the texts above "for example"
 
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BobRyan

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Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14 and Acts 24:15 all speak of the resurrection in the singular.

Does not help your argument since that is still "two distinct points" in the saved person's life... this life and also "the next", just as my illustration for all the texts in the list you are not discussing - points out.

1 Cor 15:19 If we have hoped in Christ only in this life, we are of all people most to be pitied.

==================

John 5 - two resurrections. one for the saved and one for the lost
Rev 20 -- two resurrection. one for the saved and one for the lost

John 5:
Two Resurrections
25 Truly, truly, I say to you, a time is coming and even now has arrived, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not be amazed at this; for a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come out: those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the bad deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
 
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BobRyan

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I have dealt with Matt 18:32-35.

you dealt with that "forgiveness revoked" teaching of Christ in Matt 18 -- by saying we should pay no attention to it since it includes a parable before vs 35.

INSIDE the parable:
Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his master *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his master, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed him.​


OUTSIDE the parable:
35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”​

You are in essence turning vs 35 into "so shall my Father NOT do to each one of you - because after all that was merely a parable" -- and then claiming that is "the same" thing.

How about "sola scriptura" testing of your doctrine in that case???
 
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BobRyan

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More from the list of texts you are not looking at --

But for those who not only happen to sin one day... but in fact turn and reject their former connection with Christ - Rom 11 says "He is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in unbelief"

Rom 11:
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.

Pretty clear



========================== Texts which were noted here



Bible warnings about forgiveness revoked and being severed from Christ - fallen from Grace

  1. Matt 18:32-35 - Christ teaches " full forgiveness revoked" at the end of the chapter
  2. Ezek 18:20-28 - Entire chapter teaches "forgiveness revoked" and die in sins
  3. John 15 - "branches in me" that are cut off and burned up
  4. Matt 13:5-6,20-21 - Rocky ground example - teaches salvation revoked.
  5. Rom 11:19-21 - those who "stand only by faith" - are to fear lest they are lost by failing to continue
  6. 1 Cor 9:22-27 - Paul is exercising self discipline --lest after preaching the gospel to others I myself should be disqualified from it
  7. Gal 5:4 - "you have been severed from Christ... you have fallen from grace"
  8. Heb 6 - those who have escaped , who have found salvation - turning back again to being lost. Not able to "renew them again" back to being saved - in this very special case

As one might easily perceive - changing a warning about the saved being in danger of becoming lost (becoming severed from Christ, having full forgiveness revoked) is a far more weighty matter than "Warning the lost against becoming lost-er".

It is also a far more weighty matter than warning "the saved that they are in danger of still being saved but having 'less blessings' ".
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Where in the Bible do you find any mention of a "rapture to heaven"?
I asked where in the Bible? These statements do not provide any evidence.

John 14
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

"I Go to prepare a place for you, and if I go I will come again and receive you to Myself so that where I am there you may be also"

Matt 6 "Our Father who is IN HEAVEN"

Matt 5:12 "For GREAT is your reward in Heaven"
1Peter 1:4 Our inheritance is IN Heaven

Phil 1:23 Our citizenship in Heaven – from which we eagerly await Jesus
John 14:1-6 was said DURING Jesus' ministry BEFORE He was crucified. So when He DID ascend, He DID prepare a place for His disciples, just as He said He would.

Jesus was giving assurance that they would be IN heaven when they died. This passage is NOT about the resurrection or the rapture.

2 Timothy 4:18
The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
Paul was clearly talking about his trip to heaven when he would DIE. Nothiing about the rapture.

Matt 5:10 "For yours is the Kingdom of Heaven"
Matt 6:10 "Lay up for YOURSELVES treasure in Heaven"
All this was said to people who would die and GO to heaven.

Heb 11:

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he left, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as a stranger in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. ....

13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen and welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country which they left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one.
All this refers to Rev 21, which is AFTER the Millennial reign of King Jesus.

Two distinct points in the saved person's life - not one.

1 Cor 15: 19 If we have hoped in Christ only in this life, we are of all people most to be pitied.

In the texts above "for example"
I'm not seeing any points here. Could you number your points when you mention a specific number? Thanks.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14 and Acts 24:15 all speak of the resurrection in the singular.
Does not help your argument since that is still "two distinct points" in the saved person's life...
I still have no idea what your "2 distinct points" are, or even why they are relevant.

As to your comment about the verses I cited "not helping my argument", I guess words just don't mean anything, huh?

All the verses mention the resurrection in the singular. If you argue against a singular resurrection, that's your fault. I am sticking with what the Bible says.

Whatever your "2 points" are, they are trumped and refuted by the Bible.

this life and also "the next", just as my illustration for all the texts in the list you are not discussing - points out.
I believe that every Christian knows there is "this life" and "also the next life". What is your point about that common knowledge?

1 Cor 15:19 If we have hoped in Christ only in this life, we are of all people most to be pitied.
Yes, Paul was emphasizing that there IS life after death.

John 5 - two resurrections. one for the saved and one for the lost
Rev 20 -- two resurrection. one for the saved and one for the lost

John 5:
Two Resurrections
25 Truly, truly, I say to you, a time is coming and even now has arrived, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not be amazed at this; for a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come out: those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the bad deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
This what Acts 24:15 (one of my citations) is about. ONE resurrection for the saved and ONE for the unsaved.

You've made MY point. Now, what is it about your 2 points that are so relevant?
 
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FreeGrace2

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you dealt with that "forgiveness revoked" teaching of Christ in Matt 18 -- by saying we should pay no attention to it since it includes a parable before vs 35.
I don't think LYING is a very good trait for a believer. You wanna take that back?

Or show which post # where I said "we should pay no attention to it".

In fact, I explained what it means to be forgiven. This isn't about forensic forgiveness, as it seems you presume. It's about fellowship forgiveness, which EVERY believer SHOULD BE quite aware of. In 1 John 1:9 only by confession of our sins will we be forgiven and cleansed or purified. That is for fellowship restoration. But it's just amazing how many believers have no idea what I'm talking about.

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his master *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his master, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

You are in essence turning vs 35 into "so shall my Father NOT do to each one of you - because after all that was merely a parable" -- and then claiming that is "the same" thing.

How about "sola scriptura" testing of your doctrine in that case???
How about understanding some basic principles and doctrines about spiritual growth and how to get back INTO fellowship when you sin?

Applying this text to salvation forgiveness leads the believer down the path to false doctrine.
 
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FreeGrace2

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More from the list of texts you are not looking at --
Rom 11:
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.

Pretty clear
I agree. So why do you misunderstand it so much? In 1st Century Palestine and Jewish history (OT), to be "cut off" meant to die physically. Not lose salvation.

Again, you apparently believe that "falling from grace" and "being severed from Christ" means loss of salvation. If that were true, then what Jesus SAID in John 5:24 and 10:28 HAVE TO BE A LIE. Are you comfortable with that?

You have failed to address either verse and explain WHY they can't mean what I believe they mean. In fact, the wording is so simple and clear it's just amazing how many believers misunderstand them.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I agree. So why do you misunderstand it so much? In 1st Century Palestine and Jewish history (OT), to be "cut off" meant to die physically. Not lose salvation.


Again, you apparently believe that "falling from grace" and "being severed from Christ" means loss of salvation. If that were true, then what Jesus SAID in John 5:24 a

The bible is one continues book, and everything has to reconcile.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

The devil believes in God, but that doesn't mean he will not come into judgement and will have everlasting life. Belief is another word for obedience. We see this example clearly in Hebrews 4 where they use the word unbelief interchangeable with disobedience. You don't want to wait until the last minute and hope that believing is all that us required to get into heaven when scripture tells us we are saved by grace, which does not delete sin Romans 6:1-2 through our faith which does not void the law but establishes the law Romans 3:31 and we obey God because that's how we express love to God according to God though our obedience to His law John 14:15, John 15:10, 1 John 5:3, Exodus 20:6 and how Jesus knows us Matthew 7:21-23, 1 John 2:4 - What do you think Jesus is going to say to those who claim they love Him, but don't show it? That is why we are told to be doers of the law Romans 2:13, Be doers of the Word James 1:22 and we are told right before the Revelation of Jesus Christ Blessed are they that DO His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14 so it might not be a good idea to isolate certain scriptures because we don't want to be disappointed when Jesus comes who will be judging us based on our actions

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Revelation 22:7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.

9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” 10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. 11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

Jesus Testifies to the Churches
12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

God bless
 
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BobRyan

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Rom 11:
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.

Pretty clear


Well then ... let's reflect on that point of agreement for a few minutes.


ok... minutes have passed...

next.

"cut off" meant to die physically. Not lose salvation. .

nonesense...

Dead people don't "change there mind and determine not to "continue in unbelief" while dead.

23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.

The idea that your insert of this being "a physically dead person" -- who just changed their mind then was brought back to life -- is a huge bend-and-wrench for that text.
 
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FreeGrace2

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It helps to read things in context. Everything is conditional including John 5:24.
I would appreciate an explanation of what you mean by "Jn 5:24 is conditional". There are no words in that verse that comprise a conditional statement.

It's not wise to isolate one scripture and ignore everything else.
Are you suggesting something like counting up all the verses you think that say one thing and all the verses that state the contrary, and just go with the most verses??

The bible is one continues book, and everything has to reconcile.
Exactly!! Which is why John 5:24 and 10:28 are so critical. These verses are the most straightforward and plainly stated verses in the Bible about eternal security.

Unfortunately, those who don't believe in eternal security, usually for emotional reasons, simply discount these verses, or say other verses "explain" them.

Nonsense. These 2 verses absolutely NAIL eternal security. There is NO getting around them. One either believes exactly what the verses say or they don't.

There is NO wriggle room.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

The devil believes in God, but that doesn't mean he will not come into judgement and will have everlasting life.
The verse says nothing about 'believing IN God' for salvation. The verse does say, in the Greek, "believing the One who sent Me". Big difference. iow, 5:24 is about believing what God the Father has said about His Son as Savior.

Belief is another word for obedience.
It is not. Belief is trust. That is NOT obedience.

We see this example clearly in Hebrews 4 where they use the word unbelief interchangeable with disobedience.
Don't forget 3:19, which also directly applied to Moses himself, for disobeying a command by God to speak to the rock. And the bible equates that with not trusting God.

You don't want to wait until the last minute and hope that believing is all that us required to get into heaven when scripture tells us we are saved by grace, which does not delete sin
"delete sin"??? Really? Don't you know that Jesus Christ died for all sins? He already "deleted sin".

1 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
First, it is 2 Cor, not 1 Cor. Second, this judgment is for the purpose of either receiving reward, or losing out on reward because of our actions. It has NOTHING to do with our saved state.

Revelation 22:7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” 10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. 11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”
Jesus Testifies to the Churches
12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
God bless
There is just so much to have to explain to you, it's impossible to address all this in 1 or many posts.

Even if I did, it seems to me your mind has already been made up and there is no need for facts.

When Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, there is nothing to explain.

It is very clear. Once given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish. Period.

That means EVERY verse that is viewed/understood as losing salvation has been grossly misunderstood.

You have lots to figure out.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
"cut off" meant to die physically. Not lose salvation. .
nonesense...
Really? Let's see about that.

Dead people don't "change there mind and determine not to "continue in unbelief" while dead.

23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.

The idea that your insert of this being "a physically dead person" -- who just changed their mind then was brought back to life -- is a huge bend-and-wrench for that text.
What you have done is created a yo-yo kind of salvation. Spiritually dead one minute, but spiritually alive, all based on your beliefs at the moment.

What I forgot to mention is that "cut off" was also understood by the Jews as being cut off from God's blessings to His chosen people. And being cut off from their service to Him.

The Jews were, and many still are, quite proud that God chose them to serve Him.

In any case, the Bible does NOT teach that salvation can be lost, and especially that salvation can be lost and found, lost and found, lost and found, as you seem to believe.

Jesus SAID that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Straightforward. No need of explaining. Once eternal life is received, the recipient shall never perish. Period.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I would appreciate an explanation of what you mean by "Jn 5:24 is conditional". There are no words in that verse that comprise a conditional statement.

Yes it is conditional. First you have to hear and then you have to believe in Him (God). Like I explained previous the bible uses belief and obedience interchangeably as shown in Hebrews 4. The devil believes is he going to Heaven? According to your theory he would be, but the scripture doesn't teach that, so we should probably not try to isolate one scripture and delete the rest of scripture.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life

Just like John 10:25 you have to read all the scripture for the proper context. Lots of conditional promises:

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

You seem to be disregarding all these important scriptures that lead up John 10:28. First you have to believe- how do you believe in God, but not obey what He asks? If you beleive God you will believe in what He is asking. And Jesus has to know us. How does Jesus know us? Jesus tells us:

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Are you suggesting we should ignore this warning from Jesus? or this warning from John?

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I am not sure why anyone would want to do the least of what God asks.

We have free will, you can believe whatever you want, but Jesus said IF you love Me, keep My commandments, so that seems pretty clear to me and definitely not unreasonable to ask considering He is our Creator and Redeemer!

Perhaps something to pray about?
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
I would appreciate an explanation of what you mean by "Jn 5:24 is conditional". There are no words in that verse that comprise a conditional statement.
Yes it is conditional. First you have to hear and then you have to believe in Him (God).
Of course salvation is conditioned upon believing in Christ for salvation. There are NO OTHER conditions for "is not condemned". That's what I meant.

However, Jesus didn't state the verse as a condition, but rather, a result of believing. So it still isn't a conditional statement. They contain "if...then..." construction.

Like I explained previous the bible uses belief and obedience interchangeably as shown in Hebrews 4.
As I explained, no it doesn't.

The devil believes is he going to Heaven?
Don't be ridiculous.

According to your theory he would be
No theory, and I don't teach that.

but the scripture doesn't teach that, so we should probably not try to isolate one scripture and delete the rest of scripture.
I challenge you to quote the single best and most clear verse that shows that salvation can be lost.

s
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life
What is the result of hearing the gospel and believing it? POSSESSING eternal life.

Now, what did Jesus SAY about the result of those who POSSESS eternal life in John 10:28? Will you answer that?

Just like John 10:25 you have to read all the scripture for the proper context. Lots of conditional promises:

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”
Please just answer my question about v.28. What is the RESULT of being given eternal life?

You seem to be disregarding all these important scriptures that lead up John 10:28.
No, I'm not. They have NO effect on the clear words of Jesus.

Please just answer my question. What did Jesus SAY the result of receiving eternal life in v.28?

First you have to believe- how do you believe in God, but not obey what He asks? If you beleive God you will believe in what He is asking. And Jesus has to know us. How does Jesus know us? Jesus tells us:

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Do you seriously think this crowd ever believed in Him for salvation?

Are you suggesting we should ignore this warning from Jesus? or this warning from John?

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Many believers (saved people) do not have the truth in them. And they LIE.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
I would appreciate an explanation of what you mean by "Jn 5:24 is conditional". There are no words in that verse that comprise a conditional statement.

Of course salvation is conditioned upon believing in Christ for salvation. There are NO OTHER conditions for "is not condemned". That's what I meant.

However, Jesus didn't state the verse as a condition, but rather, a result of believing. So it still isn't a conditional statement. They contain "if...then..." construction.


As I explained, no it doesn't.


Don't be ridiculous.


No theory, and I don't teach that.


I challenge you to quote the single best and most clear verse that shows that salvation can be lost.

s
What is the result of hearing the gospel and believing it? POSSESSING eternal life.

Now, what did Jesus SAY about the result of those who POSSESS eternal life in John 10:28? Will you answer that?


Please just answer my question about v.28. What is the RESULT of being given eternal life?


No, I'm not. They have NO effect on the clear words of Jesus.

Please just answer my question. What did Jesus SAY the result of receiving eternal life in v.28?


Do you seriously think this crowd ever believed in Him for salvation?


Many believers (saved people) do not have the truth in them. And they LIE.

I think it’s important to understand that all scripture is from God.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,2 Timothy 3:16

The whole Bible has to reconcile and while Jesus wants to offer salvation to everyone, not everyone accepts this free gift by not following the manual that was given us, God’s Holy Bible.

Sin is what separated us from God and the whole bible is how we can get back to God and the scripture tells us exactly what we need to do when following it and being led by the Holy Spirit, which is given when we obey. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32

When Jesus walked this earth what did He preach?

From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Matthew 4:17

So that's something we have to do so clearly stated by the mouth of Jesus. Repent from what? Sin. What is sin? It is defined as breaking God’s laws. 1 John 3:4, Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7 and breaking one commandment is like breaking them all. James 2:10-12, Matthew 5:19

We are told:

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

It really can’t be clearer! We can believe in the promises of Jesus of eternal life, but we need to follow the instruction manual otherwise we might miss a few steps.

I hope @LoveGodsWord doesn’t mind me reposting something he wrote up on another thread which really sums up our Salvation through scripture beautifully:

According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins. According to the scriptures, obedience to Gods' law is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and according to James there is no such thing as faith that does not have the fruit of obedience to Gods' Word. As posted to your friend faith without works is simply the dead faith of devils according to James 2:17-26. Gods Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) *1 John 2:3-4. This is why Jesus says "unless a man is born again" into Gods' new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-36 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 "we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven" (see John 3:3-7and compare with 1 John 3:6-9).

I would prayerfully read this and every scripture, we don't know what will happen tomorrow so living a life that Jesus left for our example and believing the words Jesus taught, not just some of them, but all of them, we want Jesus to know us when He returns, and we are known by Christ through our obedience Matthew 7:23, 1 John 2:4 and that is how we express our love to Christ through our obedience John 14:15, John 15:10, Exodus 20:6, 1 John 5:3, not my words, but God's Word! This idea that we can live however we want, break God's laws, be rebellious to God and not repent and turn from sin but as long as you just believe you will be saved, you don't want Jesus to say this to us when He comes back:

Matthew 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’


Many believers (saved people) do not have the truth in them. And they LIE.

According to scripture there is no truth in you when you claim to know God, but don't obey.

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

His sheep hear His voice, and He asks:
If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15

How can you ask God for eternal life, but not show Him love in return through our obedience when keeping the commandments of God is not burdensome 1 John 5:3 and brings you peace?

Isaiah 48:13 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.

God bless
 
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I think it’s important to understand that all scripture is from God.
Of course it is.

All Scripture
is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,2 Timothy 3:16

The whole Bible has to reconcile and while Jesus wants to offer salvation to everyone, not everyone accepts this free gift by not following the manual that was given us, God’s Holy Bible.
Keep in mind that NO verse can contradict any other verse. All verses DO harmonize, meaning that there is NOTHING to "reconcile", as if some verses teach the opposite of other verses. That cannot be true.

Sin is what separated us from God and the whole bible is how we can get back to God
Not exactly. The good news of eternal life is ONE part of the whole Bible. Salvation is obtained by believing the verses that tell us the BASIS of having eternal life. The rest of the Bible is about HOW to live the Christian life, by being filled with the Spirit, the consequences of sin, which is God's painful discipline and the FACT that all believers are eternally secure.

and the scripture tells us exactly what we need to do when following it and being led by the Holy Spirit, which is given when we obey. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32
No, obedience is NOT the same or equal to believing in the work of Christ for salvation.

The Greek words are different and mean different things.

When Jesus walked this earth what did He preach?
A lot of things.
1. He is the ONLY way to the Father. John 14:6
2. salvation is eternally secure. John 5:24 with 10:28
3. etc, etc, etc.

From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Matthew 4:17
The Greek word means to change the mind. Everyone who comes to Christ in faith has changed their mind.

So that's something we have to do so clearly stated by the mouth of Jesus. Repent from what? Sin.
Actually, change our mind about a lot of things.
1. There IS an afterlife.
2. There are only 2 locations in the afterlife; with God or without God.
3. One will be with God by grace through faith in Christ. Eph 2:8,9
4. Those who have not believed will be condemned and cast into the lake of fire. Jn 3:18, 2 Thess 2:12 and Rev 20:15.

What is sin? It is defined as breaking God’s laws. 1 John 3:4, Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7 and breaking one commandment is like breaking them all. James 2:10-12, Matthew 5:19
Correct. All are sinners. All are condemned. Only faith in Christ removes the condemnation and provides an eternally secure salvationn.

We are told:

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

It really can’t be clearer!
I agree, but it is so sad how many people just don't understand this verse. Many assume that this means wilful sin results in loss of salvation. Not true. This verse is directly related to 10:18 - And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

You see, once Christ paid the sin penalty for everyone, no sacrifice is necessary. He is the supreme sacrifice. No other sacrifice will do.

We can believe in the promises of Jesus of eternal life
Jesus did not "promise" eternal life in John 5:24 or 10:28. He specifically SAID that whoever believes (present tense) in Him HAS (present tense - possession) eternal life.

Not a promise, but the ACTUAL gift itself!! Do you believe this?

Then, in 10:28, He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Do you believe this?

but we need to follow the instruction manual otherwise we might miss a few steps.
This is not the gospel. The "instruction manual" does NOT contradict eternal security which Jesus taught very clearly.

According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9.
If LGW had stoppeed here, things would be fine. But it's all the extra that really DOESN'T apply to salvation that is added to the gospel that is the problem.

Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins. According to the scriptures, obedience to Gods' law is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and according to James there is no such thing as faith that does not have the fruit of obedience to Gods' Word. As posted to your friend faith without works is simply the dead faith of devils according to James 2:17-26. Gods Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) *1 John 2:3-4. This is why Jesus says "unless a man is born again" into Gods' new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-36 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 "we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven" (see John 3:3-7and compare with 1 John 3:6-9).
Unfortunately, it is an error to think that James was teaching that lack of fruit means lack of salvation. Ain't so. In fact, James was encouraging even admonishing his audience of SAVED Jews to demonstrate their faith by their works.

I would prayerfully read this and every scripture
I've been reading through the NT monthly for about 2 decades, prayerfully.

This idea that we can live however we want, break God's laws, be rebellious to God and not repent and turn from sin but as long as you just believe you will be saved, you don't want Jesus to say this to us when He comes back:

Matthew 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Are you aware that the one thing that crowd in Matt 7:21-23 lacked was faith alone in Christ? That is the ONLY REASON He could say to them "I never knew you".

If they HAD believed in Him, they would have been given eternal life by Him, and on THAT BASIS, shall NEVER PERISH, according to Jesus' words in John 10:28.

According to scripture there is no truth in you when you claim to know God, but don't obey.
There are many saved people who don't know the truth. This is seen and proved by the various and contradictory doctrines that believers hold to.

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Yep, a very ignorant believer.

His sheep hear His voice, and He asks:
If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15
Yep. And this is NOT about salvation. It's about service through love.

How can you ask God for eternal life, but not show Him love in return through our obedience when keeping the commandments of God is not burdensome 1 John 5:3 and brings you peace?
I think you are quite confused. Where does the Bible tell us to "ask God for eternal life"? Nowhere. The Bible tells us to believe in the Son of God and you will POSSESS eternal life.
 
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John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 5:24 does not say what you claim. It says the opposite. It clearly says he who believes HAS (as in possesses) eternal life.

It doesn't say "has a promise of a future eternal life".

There is NO mention of a promise in John 5:24. It speaks about POSSESSION of eternal life. Very clearly.

I am, but it seems that you aren't.

I would never advise arguing against Jesus.

Je said, in John 10:28, "I give them (believers-John 5:24) eternal life and they shall never perish.

Please note that there is NO condition for recipients of eternal life to avoid perishing.

iow, recipients of eternal life shall not (cannot) perish.

How do you turn this verse into a verse that suggests one can lose eternal life?

Eternal life means having an immortal spiritual body that cannot suffer physical death. It's only given at the resurrection/rapture. As a mortal, we are still susceptible to physical death, unless the rapture occurs tomorrow to take us away. But until then, I'm afraid that 'eternal life' remains a promise.
 
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