There is a gap between that of Luke 21:20 and the coming recorded in verse 27.

DavidPT

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Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 are all parallel accounts: each has the abomination of desolation, the day of the Lord, followed by a rapture.

You’re confusing Luke 21:20 with the events in 70 AD, but verse 20 occurs at the mid trib point, just before the gathering of the elect in a rapture.


There was a time in the past, since I assumed all of these were parallels, and since I took Matthew 24:15-26 to be future and in the end of this age, I then applied the same to Luke 21:20 like you are doing here. It was Luke 21:24 that eventually caused me to change my position concerning Luke 21:20.
 
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Timtofly

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I can’t tell if you are just missing the point or if you are being purposely obtuse. I’ll assume the former for now.

Here are the verses in question:


“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;
— Matthew 24:32


Then He told them a parable: “Behold the fig tree and all the trees; as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near.
— Luke 21:29-31

They are both from the Olivet Discourse, and both speaking of the same thing. You’ve ignored one, and put great weight on the other, and I’m wondering on what basis you are doing so.
Are you saying that the "trees" should have all been mentioned in Matthew and Mark?

I am not being obtuse. Luke left out the cursing of the fig tree. Both Mark and Matthew include it, and do not include the "other trees". Mark 13:28-29

28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
 
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parousia70

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29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

James 5:8-9
8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9 Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!

How could James have been so wrong?
Surely He was aware of Jesus' admonition above, and knew it could NOT have been "nigh & at the doors" BEFORE "all those things" came to pass, no?
 
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parousia70

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There was a time in the past, since I assumed all of these were parallels, and since I took Matthew 24:15-26 to be future and in the end of this age, I then applied the same to Luke 21:20 like you are doing here. It was Luke 21:24 that eventually caused me to change my position concerning Luke 21:20.


They are All parallel, just not future to us.

COMPARE THIS:

Luke 21:20-23
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

TO THIS:

Matthew 24:15-20
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

AND TO THIS:
Mark 13:
14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. 16 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.

All three passages speak of the same "WHEN YOU SEE" the same "DESOLATION" The Same "TIME TO FLEE" the same "THOSE DAYS" of "WOE TO THE PREGNANT AND NURSING" and the Same "DISTRESS/TRIBULATION"
 
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Hammster

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Are you saying that the "trees" should have all been mentioned in Matthew and Mark?
No. I’m saying that you are ignoring Luke and pretending that only Matthew exists, and trying to fit a theology in there that doesn’t belong.
 
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Timtofly

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The church did not replace Israel, the Church has ALWAYS BEEN Israel.

The "church" is not something separate from Israel, but rather is the remnant of the faithful within Israel.

Acts 7:38 speaks of "the church in the wilderness" with Moses. Likewise, Isaiah pointed out that in times of Israel's great apostasies, the faithful of the nation were reduced to a tiny remnant of elect ones (Isaiah 1:8-9). So it was in the first century, where Paul identifies himself as an example of the faithful remnant (Romans 11:1-5).

The prophesied Remnant of the elect Jews followed God by following Jesus and his jewish apostles. They are True Faithful Israel. Their jewish brothers who disobeyed and fought against them were cut off from among the people, as stated in Acts 3:22-24. The Rock crushed them (1 Peter 2:7-8/Matthew 21:43-45), for they rejected the time of God's visitation (Luke 19:40-44). And this is the same pattern that took place in Isaiah's day and in Elijah's day -- i.e., the REMNANT of the jews is true Israel and the rest are destroyed and do not have any heritage (Romans 9:27/Romans 11:2-5).

Moreover, the apostles continually say that the members of the Nazarene sect are the true elect ones (2 Timothy 2:10; Col 3:12; Galatians 6:15-16; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 2:9-10 ). The Church is the faithful ones of Israel.

Israelites that accept Christ don't cease to be Israel, as you would have it. Rather, they are the obedient Israel, the remnant of Israel, the elect of Israel. They were the church long before a single gentile was added to their number years later. The Church is Jewish and is Israel at its very foundations and origins (the Israeli apostles).

Scripture consistently teaches The jews who refuse to get baptized get "cut off from among the people of God" (Acts 3:22-24) and cease to be "sons of Abraham." Such disobedient ones are called "sons of satan" (John 8:39-47/Revelation 2:9). The apostles and Mary and Joseph and their Jewish followers are TRUE ISRAEL and the true church. Those people went out and added gentiles to themselves as by a grafting in process to to the commonwealth of faithful, obedient Israel.

That is the end game...One Holy nation of believers from all ethnicities. There is no future "national restoration" of Israel apart from the Global reconciliation of the world through the Church.
There is no future, separate & distinct Nationwide repentance of the modern day, Geopolitical, Secular, Multi-Ethnic, Democratic Israel prophesied in ANY scripture.

Israel is made up of the following citizens:

(1) Jesus and his first century Jewish followers and converts (Gal 6:15-16; Phil 3:3; 1 Peter 2:9)

(2) The Old Testament believing jews and converts to the covenant (Eph 2:19-22)

(3) The gentile converts who were added in during Paul's ministry and made partakers of Israel (Eph 2:11-3:11; Col 2:24-27; Romans 11:17-23)


That is who Israel is according to the scriptures.

The Remnant of the elect Jews followed God by following Jesus and his jewish apostles. They are True Faithful Israel. Their jewish brothers who disobeyed and fought against them were cut off from among the people, as stated in Acts 3:22-24. The Rock crushed them (1 Pet 2:7-8/Mt 21:43-45), for they rejected the time of God's visitation (Luke 19:40-44). And this is the same pattern that took place in Isaiah's day and in Elijah's day -- i.e., the REMNANT of the jews is true Israel and the rest are destroyed and do not have any heritage (Rom 9:27/Rom 11:2-5).

You seem to have replaced the remnant of The true Israel with the Unfaithful wicked ones as the true Heirs today.

In contrast to that teaching, The Israelite apostles of the Jewish Messiah say I am a Jew (Rom 2:27-29), say I am "Abraham's seed" (Rom 4:16/Gal 3:29), say I am "the peculiar people, royal priesthood, holy nation" (1 Pet 2:9-10), say I am the circumcision-less Israel of God (Gal 6:15-16), say I am "no longer a stranger but a fellow citizen" (Eph 2:19), say I was once not a people but now am the people of God (1 Pet 2:10) and say I am the circumcision (Phil 3:2-3). Each and every one of these statements takes a key identifier/distinctive of Israel and labels me with it. Meanwhile, Christ calls the disobedient genetic sons of Abraham the "sons of satan" and the "synagogue of satan" (Rev 2:9/John 8:39-47), and St. John says that those who deny the Son have no claim whatsoever to the Father (1 Jn 2:23) All of which is in direct opposition to your teaching.

You appear to count only the disobedient Jews as Israel!
In your teaching, The obedient Israelites, who get baptized, somehow cease to be Israel. That's completely backwards. Completely. I hope you will someday teach the truth: namely, that the jews who refuse to get baptized get "cut off from among the people of God" (Acts 3:22-24) and cease to be "sons of Abraham." Such disobedient ones are called "sons of satan" (John 8:39-47/Rev 2:9). You appear to be turned completely around backwards with regard to this topic.

Jesus, The apostles and Mary and Joseph and their Jewish & Gentile followers are TRUE ISRAEL and the true church.
The church started in the Garden, thousands of years prior to Israel being born.
 
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Timtofly

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Well, You claim that Jesus' admonition to watch for the budding of "all the trees" is not important to you, and you spend no time doing that, nor do you desire to.

How am I wrong in that assessment of your view?
Is it a requirement to study all nations, or just an opinion on personal likes and dislikes? I am not an evangelist nor missionary that has spent time researching the inner workings of the whole earth. Each member of the body of Christ has their own strengths and weaknesses. Not sure why some posters here seem to make an issue out of other members weaknesses.
 
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Timtofly

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James 5:8-9
8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9 Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!

How could James have been so wrong?
Surely He was aware of Jesus' admonition above, and knew it could NOT have been "nigh & at the doors" BEFORE "all those things" came to pass, no?
I am reasonably patient, it seems according to James the rich are not that patient.

"Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days."
 
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Timtofly

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No. I’m saying that you are ignoring Luke and pretending that only Matthew exists, and trying to fit a theology in there that doesn’t belong.
Or the other way around since Mark and Matthew agree, but Luke does not?
 
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Hammster

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Or the other way around since Mark and Matthew agree, but Luke does not?
They aren’t contradicting. In fact, there are no contradictions in scripture. That’s something you may want to look into before proceeding
 
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parousia70

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I am reasonably patient, it seems according to James the rich are not that patient.
Jesus said it would only be near and at the doors after certain signs were seen… James said it was near and at the doors in his day.

How can you believe anything James says if you assert he was so completely wrong on something as critical as the timing?
 
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parousia70

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Is it a requirement to study all nations, or just an opinion on personal likes and dislikes?

Is it a requirement to watch for the budding of the Fig tree or just an opinion on personal likes and dislikes?
 
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parousia70

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The church started in the Garden, thousands of years prior to Israel being born.
Scripture for that?

Again, please show us from scripture how Israelites who get baptized and obediently follow Israel’s King Jesus Christ, cease to be Israel.
 
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DavidPT

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They are All parallel, just not future to us.

COMPARE THIS:

Luke 21:20-23
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

TO THIS:

Matthew 24:15-20
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

AND TO THIS:
Mark 13:
14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. 16 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.

All three passages speak of the same "WHEN YOU SEE" the same "DESOLATION" The Same "TIME TO FLEE" the same "THOSE DAYS" of "WOE TO THE PREGNANT AND NURSING" and the Same "DISTRESS/TRIBULATION"


Should we be combining Matthew 24:15-26 and Mark 13:14-23 with that of Luke 21:20-24. that is the one hundred thousand dollar question? No doubt we should be combining Matthew 24:15-26 and Mark 13:14-23. But should that also include combining Luke 21:20-24 with them? Verse 24 we probably should be, but verse 24 is not verse 20 though verse 20 is what leads to what is recorded in verse 24.

If Luke 21:20 is involving all the same things Matthew 24:15-26 and Mark 13:14-23 are involving, where is there any mention in Luke 21:20 involving an AOD? If Matthew 24:15-26 and Mark 13:14-23 are involving everything Luke 21:20-24 is involving, where is there in Matthew 24:15-26 and Mark 13:14-23 involving being led away captive into all nations? All 3 accounts involve fleeing into the mountains. Is that the same as being led away captive into all nations? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I'm not certain myself.
 
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parousia70

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If Luke 21:20 is involving all the same things Matthew 24:15-26 and Mark 13:14-23 are involving, where is there any mention in Luke 21:20 involving an AOD?
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’

14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,

I have found nothing in any scripture to warrant the claim that all three passages do NOT refer to the same "when you see" the same "Desolation", the same time to "Then flee Judea" and the same "those days of Woe for the pregnant and nursing".
 
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DavidPT

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20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’

14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,

I have found nothing in any scripture to warrant the claim that all three passages do NOT refer to the same "when you see" the same "Desolation", the same time to "Then flee Judea" and the same "those days of Woe for the pregnant and nursing".


If all 3 accounts are parallel then it simply means I was right all along when I used to apply Luke 21:20 to the end of this age because that's what I did with Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

There was no abomination of desolation, standing in the holy place, standing where it ought not, in the first century, because if there would have been someone by now should be able to tell us excactly what it was since it shouldn't still be a mystery.

God was the one that wanted Jerusalem and the temple destroyed at the time. That means if it involved an abomination, God was the one responsible for it. I don't find that to be reasonable at all. If He wanted those places destroyed at the time, which He clearly did, He didn't need to concoct an abomination in order to achieve this. God is against abominations, not for them instead.
 
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Timtofly

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They aren’t contradicting. In fact, there are no contradictions in scripture. That’s something you may want to look into before proceeding
You are the one with the issues between the Gospels, not me. You are the one making the big deal of "the trees" not me. You are the one who thinks the other two should say "the trees" like Luke does, not me.

If this were not the case, you would have dropped the point many replies ago. I never said Luke contradicts the other two. I have no reason for there to be a contradiction.
 
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Timtofly

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Jesus said it would only be near and at the doors after certain signs were seen… James said it was near and at the doors in his day.

How can you believe anything James says if you assert he was so completely wrong on something as critical as the timing?
Are you saying James is wrong? I did not even bring James up, you did.
 
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