There is a gap between that of Luke 21:20 and the coming recorded in verse 27.

Timtofly

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Jesus said "Behold the Fig tree AND ALL THE TREES".

What do you think He meant by all the trees"?

Are those words of His meaningless to you? Words you can simply ignore?
I am waiting for the Second Coming, not watching the Nations carry out their affairs.
 
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Timtofly

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Yet you exclude them from any application.

According to you, the apsotles did NOT "See all those things" (Matthew 24:33) even though Jesus said they would.

Again, the YOU never changes. It ALWAYS includes the Apostles:
33 So you also [Apostles standing here], when you[Apostles standing here] see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!
This is in regards to the blooming fig tree. They see it unfold on earth, but they certainly do not procreate nor die in Paradise.

Israel did not become a great nation between 30AD and 70AD.

The apostles did not see the end of the church age in 70AD. It is still going 1991 years later.
 
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Hammster

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Who is mentioning hermeneutics? You change topics, and ask questions leading away from the original point. I am just trying to keep up.
You never answered my question. You posed two questions that show how you do hermeneutics.
 
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trophy33

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It is understood if not explicit. Does every thing have to be explicit? Did Jesus explain every thing He said or did?
"It is understood" - how is it understood that fig trees represent Israel? Based on what?
 
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chad kincham

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I'm not meaning a small gap. I'm meaning one that consists of 2000 years or so, this assuming the coming recorded in verse 27 happens within our lifetimes.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Most ppl propose that the parallel of Luke 21:20 is Matthew 24:15-26. So let's examine that and see if that is indeed the case.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Let's skip ahead to verse 29.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Obviously, the tribulation of those days meant are meaning what is recorded in verse 15-26 above. It even clearly calls it tribulation in verse 21. It couldn't be any clearer then, that this great tribulation in verse 21 is what is meant by the tribulation of those days in verse 29. Yet, some will dispute even this. But why? What other tribulation days could it possibly be talking about if that is what this chapter was just talking about prior to verse 29?

If we make Matthew 24:21 parallel to Luke 21:20, this presents a cpl of problems, such as the following. Matthew 24:29 records---immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

When did any of that ever happen immediately after the fulfillment of Luke 21:20 in the first century? That's one problem this interpretation presents. Some ppl are Preterists though, so maybe to them there are none of these problems I'm insisting that there is. But not everyone are Preterists, though. A lot of us believe, thus agree, that the coming recorded in Luke 21:27, and the coming recorded in Matthew 24:30, these involve the 2nd coming in the end of this age, not a coming in another sense involving Jerusalem in 70 AD instead.

The other problem this interpretation presents is this, keeping in mind what I have been arguing up to this point involving Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:21.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I have been arguing that the trib of those days meant in verse 29 is meaning the great trib recorded in verse 21. I have been arguing that nothing recorded in Matthew 24:15-26 involves Jerusalem in the first century since what is recorded in verse 29 never immediately followed any events in the first century.

I have also been arguing that there is a gap of at least 2000 years after the fulfilling of Luke 21:20 and the coming recorded in verse 27 in that same chapter. If Matthew 24:15-26 is parallel to Luke 21:20, where then is this same 2000 year gap between what is recorded in Matthew 24:29 and the coming recorded in verse 30? There is no 2000 year gap between those verses. Obviously, there is a gap of some kind, but it couldn't possibly be a gap involving thousands of years.

In Luke 21:20 the 2nd coming is still several thousand years away. In Matthew 24:29, which is immediately after the trib of those days recorded in verses 15-26 in this same chapter, the 2nd coming is not still 2000 years or so away. It's at the door instead. Thus the other problem this interpretation presents if Matthew 24:15-26 is assumed the parallel of Luke 21:20.

Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 are all parallel accounts: each has the abomination of desolation, the day of the Lord, followed by a rapture.

You’re confusing Luke 21:20 with the events in 70 AD, but verse 20 occurs at the mid trib point, just before the gathering of the elect in a rapture.
 
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parousia70

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I am waiting for the Second Coming, not watching the Nations carry out their affairs.

So His words in this passage are meaningless to you then. You feel free to disgregard them as useless.
Gotcha.
 
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parousia70

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This is in regards to the blooming fig tree.
"And all the trees"

They see it unfold on earth, but they certainly do not procreate nor die in Paradise.
Huh?

Israel did not become a great nation between 30AD and 70AD.
Huh?

The apostles did not see the end of the church age in 70AD.

No scripture teaches the Church age has an end.

Scripture does teach, however, that the Church abides throughout ALL ages, forever:

Ephesians 3:21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Maybe you feel this passage is irrelevant and meaningless as well?
 
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Hammster

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I asked questions to clarify your position, not mine.
But my question to you was, do you pick and choose which words of Jesus to listen to? It’s relevant since both verses reference the same event, yet you only give weight to one. I was wondering why.
 
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parousia70

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You’re confusing Luke 21:20 with the events in 70 AD.

Would the original audience have confused it as well, when they acctually saw Jerusalem encompassed by armies in their generation?

How would they have known THAT particular encompassing and desolation of Jerusalem, that happened before that generation had passed, was NOT the one Jesus meant?
 
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chad kincham

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Would the original audience have confused it as well, when they acctually saw Jerusalem encompassed by armies in their generation?

How would they have known THAT particular encompassing and desolation of Jerusalem, that happened before that generation had passed, was NOT the one Jesus meant?

Excellent question!

They would know it by the sequence of events Jesus outlines that will precede the son of perdition/abomination of desolation event Jesus describes in verse 20.

Before that event there will be great earthquakes, famines, pestilences, terrifying events in the heavens, the seas and waves roaring, with great distress upon the earth, Luke 21:11 (plus verse 25 adds to the description of the events to happen when verse 21 occurs).

70 AD was a foreshadow fulfillment, and Christians actually did flee Judaea then due to remembering Jesus’ warning about seeing Judea surrounded by armies - but after the fact it’s obvious that the preceding events to the son of perdition/abomination of desolation event Jesus described in Luke 21:20, Matthew 24:15, and Mark 13:14, did not occur in 70 AD - which is why we now know it was a foreshadow fulfillment.
 
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Timtofly

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"It is understood" - how is it understood that fig trees represent Israel? Based on what?
Who else did Jesus curse? We are not talking about other nations, other than the one with the Temple set up in the Law of Moses.
 
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Timtofly

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"And all the trees"


Huh?


Huh?



No scripture teaches the Church age has an end.

Scripture does teach, however, that the Church abides throughout ALL ages, forever:

Ephesians 3:21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Maybe you feel this passage is irrelevant and meaningless as well?
Israel has not had an end either and the church did not replace Israel. Israel as a Nation will be forever, world without end.
 
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Timtofly

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But my question to you was, do you pick and choose which words of Jesus to listen to? It’s relevant since both verses reference the same event, yet you only give weight to one. I was wondering why.
Is that not wise as Jesus told people they could do a multitude of things, that are not the personal preferences of living life as a normal person in 2022?
 
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Hammster

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Is that not wise as Jesus told people they could do a multitude of things, that are not the personal preferences of living life as a normal person in 2022?
I can’t tell if you are just missing the point or if you are being purposely obtuse. I’ll assume the former for now.

Here are the verses in question:


“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;
— Matthew 24:32


Then He told them a parable: “Behold the fig tree and all the trees; as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near.
— Luke 21:29-31

They are both from the Olivet Discourse, and both speaking of the same thing. You’ve ignored one, and put great weight on the other, and I’m wondering on what basis you are doing so.
 
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trophy33

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Who else did Jesus curse? We are not talking about other nations, other than the one with the Temple set up in the Law of Moses.
So, you understand it by association. Jesus cursed a fig tree, Israel was judged, therefore the fig tree = Israel.
 
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parousia70

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Excellent question!
I know.

They would know it by the sequence of events Jesus outlines that will precede the son of perdition/abomination of desolation event Jesus describes in verse 20.

Before that event there will be great earthquakes, famines, pestilences, terrifying events in the heavens, the seas and waves roaring, with great distress upon the earth,

Well, all of those things did indeed take place in that generation as recorded in scripture and history.

Jesus promised His apostles that they will have famines, wars and rumors concerning wars. This prophecy had special significance during that period of the great Pax Romana ("Roman Peace"), when the outbreak of these wars transpired: Claudius' Roman war with Britain/East Anglia; at least three Jewish insurrections against Rome prior to the 60s AD (one violently put down by Cuspius Fadus); the Jewish/Alexandrian revolt upon Caligula's death; Claudius declares martial law in Palestine after the Jewish insurrection at the death of Agrippa I; the Germanic tribes in present-day Belgium and Germany made perpetual trouble for the legions throughout the reign; a smoldering Balkan war was in continuous progress. As these conflagrations escalated, Rome started its own civil wars in 68-70 that nearly toppled the empire. As Tacitus writes, "Four princes [Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Domitian] killed by the sword; three civil wars, several foreign wars; and mostly raging at the same time. Favorable events in the East [the subjection of the Jews], unfortunate ones in the West. Illyria disturbed, Gaul uneasy; Britain conquered and soon relinquished; the nations of Sarmatia and Suevia rising against us; the Parthians excited by the deception of a pseudo-Nero." For more on wars of this time and false prophets, see: Josephus: Antiquities, 20:5:1-4; 20:8:5-10; Wars, 2:10:1; 2:13:4-7; 6:5:2.

As for famines, Acts 11:28 records a worldwide famine. Josephus reports famines in Jerusalem in the 60s AD which killed hundreds of thousands during the Jewish War (AD 66-70). There were accounts of infanticide and cannibalism (as foretold in Deuteronomy 28:53,57) -- Jewish women cooked and ate their babies (Josephus; Wars 6:3:3-4; Wars 5:1:4).

Concerning earthquakes, Seneca writes: "How often have cities in Asia, how often in Achaia, been laid low by a single shock of earthquake! How many towns in Smyrna, how many in Macedonia, have been swallowed up! How often has Paphos collapsed! Not infrequently are tidings brought to us of the utter destruction of entire cities" (Seneca Ad Lucilium Epistulae Morales, trans. Richard M. Gummere, vol. 2, 437). Josephus says of Jerusalem, "the city was besieged on both sides...there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming" (Wars, 4:4:5).

There were also verifiable eyewitness accounts of the Many cosmic signs witnessed in the Roman-Jewish war as Fulfillment of the NT eschatological prophesies citing the arrival Horses, chariots, and angelic armies in the clouds, and the Brightness of the Lord falling on the temple itself.

These angelic armies in chariots battling in the clouds, voices, and glorious brightness of God were indeed witnessed at the temple and around Jerusalem as recorded INDEPENDENTLY by Josephus, Tacitus, and the Midrash in these legitimate history books (Josephus, Wars, 6:5:3; 2:22:1-2; 4:4:5; 6:5:2-3; Tacitus, Histories, v. 13; Midrash, Lam 2:11).

70 AD was a foreshadow fulfillment, and Christians actually did flee Judaea then due to remembering Jesus’ warning about seeing Judea surrounded by armies - but after the fact it’s obvious that the preceding events to the son of perdition/abomination of desolation event Jesus described in Luke 21:20, Matthew 24:15, and Mark 13:14, did not occur in 70 AD - which is why we now know it was a foreshadow fulfillment.

As demonstrated above, the events did indeed take place, so the original audience, as you agree, saw them and believed and heeded Jesus warning, correctly.

As for your "shadow fulfillment" claim, there is no such thing. there is Full-fillment, and not fulfillment.

However, Your appeal to "Type/Shadow" brings up an interesting question.

Is this your position concerning ALL prophecy? Can I assume that you believe there will be a future redemption of man through some future sacrifice? In other words, your thought here opens the door for a future Calvary. Perhaps the establishment of a new Church. Another virgin birth?

I have to ask: Where does the bible teach that? Quite simply, it doesn't. That position is entirely unbiblical, and has no root in apostolic belief or teaching (scripture). It is an allegory invented by later futurists, but was unknown to the apostles.

I think you, like so many, fail to understand the difference between Old Testament typology (shadows and types) with the realities of Christ and the New Covenant (which are not mere shadows and types).

Let's start with the crucifixion. What recent events look to be the GREATER fulfillment of the calvary event in our bibles? 9/11?? Columbine? Sandy Hook? Some other event coming soon? Abortion? Something has to fit...rule of multiple fulfillments.

Next, let's look at the virgin birth. Perhaps cloning is the greater fulfillment in our times of that shadow provided by Mary and Jesus? Something has to fit your rule of multiple fulfillments, right?

Christ's ministry of miraculous cures. No doubt that modern medicine is the GREATER messiah of our times for which Jesus was a mere shadow. Modern medicine has brought cures for ailments and diseases on a massive scale NEVER before done by anyone including Jesus. Surely you must maintain that Christ's healings were just a type for a far greater healing of the sick in our times?

Do I really need to keep going?

I have fairly applied the logic presented in your post to other important subjects of bible prophecy to illustrate just how inconsistent and absurd a "multiple fulfillments" concept is.

Where you seem to fail to understand is the O.T. theology of Messianic TYPOLOGY. Typology is the biblically supported doctrine wherein the apostles claim that the Mosaic Ministry (Temple, sacrifices, priesthood, etc) were foreshadowings of Jesus Christ. We all should study this important concept and recognize that the pattern ends once the Mosaic System is gone.

Please recognize that the terminus for this TYPOLOGICAL method of understanding the Old Covenant passages arrived 20 centuries ago -- and so to continue turning NEW COVENANT ERA things into mere types and shadows of yet-future-to-us events is not Biblically supported.

Typology is a timebound heremeneutic. Those shadows of the O.T. foretold the story of the Messianic Advent via things familiar to the Jews' way of life. Once Christ is come the shadows are done away (Col 2:16-17). The heavenly things that arrived in Christ's advent are the object for which the types only were shadows (Heb 8:4-5). These heavenly New Covenant things are the final destiny. The Law contained the shadow but not the very image of such great things (Heb 10:1-2). We have the heavenly things now. They have been delivered and they are the END product, not the mere means to some future and better end product. The eternal New Covenant IS the destination. One could say that the entire book of Hebrews, from chapter 1 to chapter 13, argues this exact point. The biblical answer answering this whole question is written down as the book of Hebrews (all).

The shadows are fulfilled in the present, eternal, New Covenant Age that was ushered in during the last days period of the typological Old Testament Age. The New Covenant delivered REALITIES, and not more types and shadows, as appears to be your assertion..

Like many OT types that foreshadowed NT realities, Daniels AoD, even though the Jews understood as fulfilled in Antiochus Epiphenes, Jesus instructs His audience that such OT fulfillment was only typological, and the Antitype was yet future to them....

Luke Extrapolates in the most detail on what/when the disciples would recognize as the fulfillment of the antitype, namely it would be when they saw "Jerusalem surrounded by Armies", and Jesus places further emphasis on the fact that such would be the antitype fulfillment when He instructs them that those would be "the days of vengeance in fulfillment of all things written"

While the apostles understood how OT types and shadows pointed to NT fulfillments, they did not in turn teach that NT fulfillments were types and shadows of some future, greater fulfillments.

Again, Do we await another Virgin Birth, another Crucifixion? another 3rd day rising out of the tomb? Do we await some future, greater sacrifice of Christ?..... then why would we await another "Surrounding of Jerusalem by armies in fulfillment of all things written?"
And why only 2? why not 12? or 20 or 200 more?

Once you open the door to "multiple fulfillment" there can be no terminus.

No, scripture does not allow for it, for again, Christ is not the shadow but the object itself. (Col 2:16-17)
 
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parousia70

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Israel has not had an end either and the church did not replace Israel. Israel as a Nation will be forever, world without end.

The church did not replace Israel, the Church has ALWAYS BEEN Israel.

The "church" is not something separate from Israel, but rather is the remnant of the faithful within Israel.

Acts 7:38 speaks of "the church in the wilderness" with Moses. Likewise, Isaiah pointed out that in times of Israel's great apostasies, the faithful of the nation were reduced to a tiny remnant of elect ones (Isaiah 1:8-9). So it was in the first century, where Paul identifies himself as an example of the faithful remnant (Romans 11:1-5).

The prophesied Remnant of the elect Jews followed God by following Jesus and his jewish apostles. They are True Faithful Israel. Their jewish brothers who disobeyed and fought against them were cut off from among the people, as stated in Acts 3:22-24. The Rock crushed them (1 Peter 2:7-8/Matthew 21:43-45), for they rejected the time of God's visitation (Luke 19:40-44). And this is the same pattern that took place in Isaiah's day and in Elijah's day -- i.e., the REMNANT of the jews is true Israel and the rest are destroyed and do not have any heritage (Romans 9:27/Romans 11:2-5).

Moreover, the apostles continually say that the members of the Nazarene sect are the true elect ones (2 Timothy 2:10; Col 3:12; Galatians 6:15-16; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 2:9-10 ). The Church is the faithful ones of Israel.

Israelites that accept Christ don't cease to be Israel, as you would have it. Rather, they are the obedient Israel, the remnant of Israel, the elect of Israel. They were the church long before a single gentile was added to their number years later. The Church is Jewish and is Israel at its very foundations and origins (the Israeli apostles).

Scripture consistently teaches The jews who refuse to get baptized get "cut off from among the people of God" (Acts 3:22-24) and cease to be "sons of Abraham." Such disobedient ones are called "sons of satan" (John 8:39-47/Revelation 2:9). The apostles and Mary and Joseph and their Jewish followers are TRUE ISRAEL and the true church. Those people went out and added gentiles to themselves as by a grafting in process to to the commonwealth of faithful, obedient Israel.

That is the end game...One Holy nation of believers from all ethnicities. There is no future "national restoration" of Israel apart from the Global reconciliation of the world through the Church.
There is no future, separate & distinct Nationwide repentance of the modern day, Geopolitical, Secular, Multi-Ethnic, Democratic Israel prophesied in ANY scripture.

Israel is made up of the following citizens:

(1) Jesus and his first century Jewish followers and converts (Gal 6:15-16; Phil 3:3; 1 Peter 2:9)

(2) The Old Testament believing jews and converts to the covenant (Eph 2:19-22)

(3) The gentile converts who were added in during Paul's ministry and made partakers of Israel (Eph 2:11-3:11; Col 2:24-27; Romans 11:17-23)


That is who Israel is according to the scriptures.

The Remnant of the elect Jews followed God by following Jesus and his jewish apostles. They are True Faithful Israel. Their jewish brothers who disobeyed and fought against them were cut off from among the people, as stated in Acts 3:22-24. The Rock crushed them (1 Pet 2:7-8/Mt 21:43-45), for they rejected the time of God's visitation (Luke 19:40-44). And this is the same pattern that took place in Isaiah's day and in Elijah's day -- i.e., the REMNANT of the jews is true Israel and the rest are destroyed and do not have any heritage (Rom 9:27/Rom 11:2-5).

You seem to have replaced the remnant of The true Israel with the Unfaithful wicked ones as the true Heirs today.

In contrast to that teaching, The Israelite apostles of the Jewish Messiah say I am a Jew (Rom 2:27-29), say I am "Abraham's seed" (Rom 4:16/Gal 3:29), say I am "the peculiar people, royal priesthood, holy nation" (1 Pet 2:9-10), say I am the circumcision-less Israel of God (Gal 6:15-16), say I am "no longer a stranger but a fellow citizen" (Eph 2:19), say I was once not a people but now am the people of God (1 Pet 2:10) and say I am the circumcision (Phil 3:2-3). Each and every one of these statements takes a key identifier/distinctive of Israel and labels me with it. Meanwhile, Christ calls the disobedient genetic sons of Abraham the "sons of satan" and the "synagogue of satan" (Rev 2:9/John 8:39-47), and St. John says that those who deny the Son have no claim whatsoever to the Father (1 Jn 2:23) All of which is in direct opposition to your teaching.

You appear to count only the disobedient Jews as Israel!
In your teaching, The obedient Israelites, who get baptized, somehow cease to be Israel. That's completely backwards. Completely. I hope you will someday teach the truth: namely, that the jews who refuse to get baptized get "cut off from among the people of God" (Acts 3:22-24) and cease to be "sons of Abraham." Such disobedient ones are called "sons of satan" (John 8:39-47/Rev 2:9). You appear to be turned completely around backwards with regard to this topic.

Jesus, The apostles and Mary and Joseph and their Jewish & Gentile followers are TRUE ISRAEL and the true church.
 
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parousia70

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Not what I said. Guess you are free to make judgments however you see fit.

Well, You claim that Jesus' admonition to watch for the budding of "all the trees" is not important to you, and you spend no time doing that, nor do you desire to.

How am I wrong in that assessment of your view?
 
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