Can Salvation be lost?

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
OK, I already asked if you would explain how this verse does NOT SAY that recipients of eternal life will never perish.

Can you do it?

BobRyan said:

I show that it does not say to ignore the texts warning about the loss of forgiveness , the loss of salvation, being severed from Christ etc.

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This doesn't address my request in the least.

Texts you have yet to take a look at apparently (starting with the first one in the list)

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I just did. Now, can you explain John 10:28 and prove that Jesus wasn't teaching eternal security? I am convinced His words DO teach eternal security.

The text you are using relies heavily on extreme inference to get to the point of ignoring the rest of the Bible speaking of "full forgiveness revoked" and being "severed from Christ".

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This is just a smokescreen. You are basically ignoring His words, by relying on texts that YOU believe teach the opposite. I have dealt with Matt 18:32-35. Now, please deal with John 10:28.

If you can't prove that Jesus taught something other than eternal security, you will have failed to refute that verse as a verse teaching eternal security.

It is like a very rich man who gives the winning lottery ticket worth 1 billion dollars to another man AND with it provides a personal body guard service so that no one can steal that ticket from him before he has the chance to go and redeem it for 1 billion dollars.

But along the way the man given the gift - incinerates the winning ticket thinking to himself "the love of money is the root of all evil.. I choose to keep living my same life".

When he meets the wealthy individual who gave him the ticket the rich man asks "did someone steal that ticket from you?" and the answer is "no". And then he asks "did you not believe that it was a real ticket" and the answer is "no I knew it was real".

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This example fails to be relevant. Why? Because in the first paragraph is this:
"before he has the chance to go and redeem it". This shows that you don't believe what Jesus said in John 5:24. Jesus said in the clearest of words that those who believe HAVE (as in present tense possess) eternal life.

Jesus didn't say "those who believe have a promise of eternal life which can be redeemed later" or anything like that. Jesus said directly that present tense believers HAVE present tense eternal life.

That means the MOMENT one believes they POSSESS eternal life. Not a promise of having eternal life in the future.

Adam and Eve also knew they had eternal life and they also knew that no one could overpower God and steal that from them... and yet here we are today.

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This is wrong. A & E had no such guarantee. Where do you get that?

Gen 2-
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

In the Hebrew He said "when you eat from it, dying, you will certainly die". This is important to show that Adam experienced immediate spiritual death when he ate the fruit, and the dying process of his physical body began on that day.

So, Adam knew that rebelling against God would lead to death. He wasn't guaranteed eternal life at all.

So this "example" also fails to be relevant.

Failure was "possible" as it turns out, even in the best of circumstances.

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This conclusion also fails since the example is in error.

Now, can you address John 10:28 and prove to me that Jesus wasn't teaching eternal security? And keep in mind what Jesus said in John 5:24.

FreeGrace2 said:

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
OK, I already asked if you would explain how this verse does NOT SAY that recipients of eternal life will never perish.

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Agreed you did ask that and I responded with this

BobRyan said:

I show that it does not say to ignore the texts warning about the loss of forgiveness , the loss of salvation, being severed from Christ etc.

Texts you have yet to take a look at apparently (starting with the first one in the list)

The text you are using relies heavily on extreme inference to get to the point of ignoring the rest of the Bible speaking of "full forgiveness revoked" and being "severed from Christ".

It is like a very rich man who gives the winning lottery ticket worth 1 billion dollars to another man AND with it provides a personal body guard service so that no one can steal that ticket from him before he has the chance to go and redeem it for 1 billion dollars.

But along the way the man given the gift - incinerates the winning ticket thinking to himself "the love of money is the root of all evil.. I choose to keep living my same life".

When he meets the wealthy individual who gave him the ticket the rich man asks "did someone steal that ticket from you?" and the answer is "no". And then he asks "did you not believe that it was a real ticket" and the answer is "no I knew it was real".

==================

Adam and Eve also knew they had eternal life and they also knew that no one could overpower God and steal that from them... and yet here we are today. Failure was "possible" as it turns out, even in the best of circumstances.

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Texts you have yet to take a look at apparently (starting with the first one in the list)

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FreeGrace2 said:

I just did.

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Wow I completely missed your review of that first text in Matt 18 - explaining how its statement about full forgiveness being revoked - is somehow not the loss of salvation. I am not aware of an "unforgiven saved person" whose sins must be paid not by Christ - but by themselves. Will be searching for that post from you as per your response there.

found it...

FreeGrace2 said:

Matt 18:32-35
32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to.
33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’
34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

The title of ch 18 from v.21 on is; The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant.

So, it is a parable.

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Yes as you note "it is a parable" - but then Jesus says outside the parable "SO Shall My heavenly Father do to each one of you IF..."

The statement He makes outside the parable is also 'The Word of God" and is to be used for doctrine as we see in 2 Tim 3:16

However you do seem to say you would not like this to be so in the case of Matt 18 .. so I can understand that this might be a problem for the POV you are suggesting so far.

FreeGrace2 said:

I just did. Now, can you explain John 10:28 and prove that Jesus wasn't teaching eternal security? .

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I just did that twice.

Now can you go to the second text in the "much to be avoided list" since you state we should not pay attention to the teaching we find in Matt 18 as if it were really "SO" ?

FreeGrace2 said:

Now, please deal with John 10:28.

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I have answered it several times.. you need to then respond to my answer rather than requesting that the answer be posted "again".

BobRyan said:

The text you are using relies heavily on extreme inference to get to the point of ignoring the rest of the Bible speaking of "full forgiveness revoked" and being "severed from Christ".

It is like a very rich man who gives the winning lottery ticket worth 1 billion dollars to another man AND with it provides a personal body guard service so that no one can steal that ticket from him before he has the chance to go and redeem it for 1 billion dollars.

But along the way the man given the gift - incinerates the winning ticket thinking to himself "the love of money is the root of all evil.. I choose to keep living my same life".

When he meets the wealthy individual who gave him the ticket the rich man asks "did someone steal that ticket from you?" and the answer is "no". And then he asks "did you not believe that it was a real ticket" and the answer is "no I knew it was real".

==================

Adam and Eve also knew they had eternal life and they also knew that no one could overpower God and steal that from them... and yet here we are today. Failure was "possible" as it turns out, even in the best of circumstances.

Click to expand...

FreeGrace2 said:

This example fails to be relevant. Why? Because in the first paragraph is this:
"before he has the chance to go and redeem it". This shows that you don't believe what Jesus said in John 5:24.

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It shows that we are currently "standing on Earth" as humans - and are not yet raptured to heaven.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
OK, I already asked if you would explain how this verse does NOT SAY that recipients of eternal life will never perish.

BobRyan said:

Agreed you did ask that and I responded with this

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Your response failed to address John 10:28 at all. What you did was appeal to YOUR veres that you think teach OSNAS. That's not how to address a verse you need to explain.

In fact, John 10:28 proves that ALL the verses you have collected over the years that you think teach loss of salvation cannot possibly teach that, given what Jesus said so clearly.

Jesus taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
Previously, in John 5:24 Jesus taught that those who believe POSSESS eternal life. This means that the MOMENT one believes, they POSSESS eternal life, and John 10:28 applies to ALL who have believed.

This means that NO believer can perish. It is impossible, given what Jesus said.

And none of your list of verses trumps what Jesus said about it.

John 5:24 with 10:28 proves that you have terribly misunderstood your ENTIRE list of verses.

BobRyan said:

Wow I completely missed your review of that first text in Matt 18 - explaining how its statement about full forgiveness being revoked - is somehow not the loss of salvation. I am not aware of an "unforgiven saved person" whose sins must be paid not by Christ - but by themselves. Will be searching for that post from you as per your response there.

found it...



Yes as you note "it is a parable" - but then Jesus says outside the parable "SO Shall My heavenly Father do to each one of you IF..."

The statement He makes outside the parable is also 'The Word of God" and is to be used for doctrine as we see in 2 Tim 3:16

However you do seem to say you would not like this to be so in the case of Matt 18 .. so I can understand that this might be a problem for the POV you are suggesting so far.



I just did that twice.

Now can you go to the second text in the "much to be avoided list" since you state we should not pay attention to the teaching we find in Matt 18 as if it were really "SO" ?

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See post #825.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
This example fails to be relevant. Why? Because in the first paragraph is this:
"before he has the chance to go and redeem it". This shows that you don't believe what Jesus said in John 5:24.

BobRyan said:

It shows that we are currently "standing on Earth" as humans - and are not yet raptured to heaven.

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I have to conclude that you don't even understand the issues here.

Your "example" failed to even illustrate your theory of loss of salvation.

And why did you bring up the rapture?

btw, living believers will be caught up together with all the dead saints that come with Jesus and all of them will receive their glorified bodies. But, at that point, Jesus continues down to earth and sets up His Millennial kingdom. So NONE of the resurrected/raptured believers will go UP to heaven. And there are NO verses showing that.

BobRyan said:

saying it... and showing it - are two different things when it comes to that list of much avoided texts.

proof --
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1. Matt 18:32-35 - Christ teaches " full forgiveness revoked" at the end of the chapter
2. Ezek 18:20-28 - Entire chapter teaches "forgiveness revoked" and die in sins
3. John 15 - "branches in me" that are cut off and burned up
4. Matt 13:5-6,20-21 - Rocky ground example - teaches salvation revoked.
5. Rom 11:19-21 - those who "stand only by faith" - are to fear lest they are lost by failing to continue
6. 1 Cor 9:22-27 - Paul is exercising self discipline --lest after preaching the gospel to others I myself should be disqualified from it
7. Gal 5:4 - "you have been severed from Christ... you have fallen from grace"
8. Heb 6 - those who have escaped , who have found salvation - turning back again to being lost. Not able to "renew them again" back to being saved - in this very special case

As one might easily perceive - changing a warning about the saved being in danger of becoming lost (becoming severed from Christ, having full forgiveness revoked) is a far more weighty matter than "Warning the lost against becoming lost-er".

It is also a far more weighty matter than warning "the saved that they are in danger of still being saved but having 'less blessings' ".

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FreeGrace2 said:

I have to conclude that you don't even understand the issues here.

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I have to conclude you have no interest in looking into those texts

FreeGrace2 said:

Your "example" failed to even illustrate your theory of loss of salvation.

And why did you bring up the rapture?

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Because in my illustration I use "having the real ticket" as "having salvation" -- obviously
And I use "raptured to heaven" as another step/stage/event in a saved person's life - and so not claiming the rapture is "the moment a person is saved".

FreeGrace2 said:

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
OK, I already asked if you would explain how this verse does NOT SAY that recipients of eternal life will never perish.

Your response failed to address John 10:28 at all.

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on the contrary it marks the line where you are applying extreme inference inserted in the text and the problem with that is it requires all the texts I am asking you to look at -- "not exist"

John 10:28 says people are saved in this life - it does not say those texts I am trying to get you to look at - don't exist or should not be accepted as the teaching of Christ - as you did with Matt 18.

Matt 28 says
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

We have a command of Christ in Matt 18 and you say that because He illustrates that command with a parable - we can ignore it and not teach it to others. That is not a very compelling way to dismiss Christ's teaching in Matt 18.

In any case I then asked you to look at the "next" text in that list.

BobRyan said:

I have to conclude you have no interest in looking into those texts

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Because you have no interest (or ability?) to address my 2 verses that prove eternal security. Spoken from our Lord.

I did address the first one on the list and showed how it said nothing about losing salvation.

So, it's your turn to address mine.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Your "example" failed to even illustrate your theory of loss of salvation.

And why did you bring up the rapture?

BobRyan said:

Because in my illustration I use "having the real ticket" as "having salvation" -- obviously

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Doesn't defend or support your theory of loss of salvaton.

And I use "raptured to heaven" as another step/stage/event in a saved person's life - and so not claiming the rapture is "the moment a person is saved".

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Since no raptured believer will ever see heaven, this is just another theory in error.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
OK, I already asked if you would explain how this verse does NOT SAY that recipients of eternal life will never perish.

Your response failed to address John 10:28 at all.

BobRyan said:

on the contrary it marks the line where you are applying extreme inference inserted in the text

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There you go again. You haven't even showed "extreme inference". Until you actually address both verses; Jn 5:24 and 10:28 and prove that they don't teach eternal security in a very direct way, you cannot show any kind of "extrteme inference".

In fact, just the opposite it true. That's what you do with your verses. You use "extreme inference" to falsely conclude they teach loss of salvation.

I've already shown the first verse on your list doesn't teach that at all.

and the problem with that is it requires all the texts I am asking you to look at -- "not exist"

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Nope. Truth can be stated in 1 sentence.

John 10:28 says people are saved in this life

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No, it doesn't say that. Have you even read it yet? Jesus SAID that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Jesus was directly addressing eternal security.

iow, those who receive eternal life shall never perish. Real simple. But please show me where I am wrong about what that verse actually teaches.

- it does not say those texts I am trying to get you to look at

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Why bother with this? No verse wouls "say that".

Matt 28 says
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

We have a command of Christ in Matt 18 and you say that because He illustrates that command with a parable - we can ignore it and not teach it to others.

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I have no idea where you mind goes. What does Matt 28 have to do with Matt 18?

The problem is clear: you won't touch John 10:28 because even a grade school student can easily understand what Jesus said.

And what He said was that those given eternal life shall NEVER perish.

That is not a very compelling way to dismiss Christ's teaching in Matt 18.

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Don't be silly. I never did that. I proved that Matt 18 isn't about losing salvation.

In any case I then asked you to look at the "next" text in that list.

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No. You STILL haven't addressed John 10:28 and proved that Jesus taught something OTHER than eternal security.

In fact, in the post I'm responding to, you couldn't even properly summarize the verse.

It seems to me that you haven't yet read the verse, and have no interest in doing so.

Why?

FreeGrace2 said:

Since no raptured believer will ever see heaven, this is just another theory in error.

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I assume you get the basic point that people on Earth today are not in heaven, are not sinless, do not have glorified eternal bodies - but one day they will (however you may suppose that to happen) so "the point remains" . I am using my illustration to represent two points in the saved person's life.

this basic step is not rocket science. I am only trying to apply the very basics -- of two points in a saved person's life.

I don't know of any denomination that teaches that this life is the only one there is for a saved person.

BobRyan said:

I assume you get the basic point that people on Earth today are not in heaven, are not sinless, do not have glorified eternal bodies - but one day they will (however you may suppose that to happen) so "the point remains" .

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Of course, but the point is irrelevant to this discussion.

I am using my illustration to represent two points in the saved person's life.

this basic step is not rocket science. I am only trying to apply the very basics -- of two points in a saved person's life.

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Why mention "2 points" but then FAIL to list them?

Are you trying to keep me in suspense or ignorance, or what?

I don't know of any denomination that teaches that this life is the only one there is for a saved person.

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Again, an irrelevant comment to the discussion of whether salvation can be lost.

Can you actually get to the point here? Or not?

FreeGrace2 said:

Why mention "2 points" but then FAIL to list them?

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I already did

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Why mention "2 points" but then FAIL to list them?

BobRyan said:

I already did

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Well, gee. That's nice. Obviously I didn't see them. Is it too difficult to just give them again?

BobRyan said:

I assume you get the basic point that people on Earth today are not in heaven, are not sinless, do not have glorified eternal bodies - but one day they will (however you may suppose that to happen) so "the point remains" . I am using my illustration to represent two points in the saved person's life.

this basic step is not rocket science. I am only trying to apply the very basics -- of two points in a saved person's life.

I don't know of any denomination that teaches that this life is the only one there is for a saved person.

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Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Christian7777777 said:

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

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1 Cor 15:19 If we have hoped in Christ only in this life, we are of all people most to be pitied.

FreeGrace2 said:

Why mention "2 points" but then FAIL to list them?

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I already did

BobRyan said:

Because in my illustration I use "having the real ticket" as "having salvation" (the first point in a saved person's life -- obviously)
And I use "raptured to heaven" as another step/stage/event (second poiny) in a saved person's life - and so not claiming the rapture is "the moment a person is saved".

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I can put bullet points on them if you prefer.