the idea that the Old Testament is only metaphorical

lifepsyop · Jan 12, 2022

I have been listening to a popular Bible scholar who is very knowledgeable on the types and patterns found throughout scripture that tie all of the books together into one repeated theme and story of God's judgment and salvation. This person's teachings are edifying and reveal the magisterial beauty of how Jesus came to fulfill what was foreshadowed in so many accounts of ancient Israel.

I recently found this person making the statement that He does not actually believe the events of the Old Testament really happened, particularly the Pentateuch, putting him in the same camp that I've found many other highly knowledgeable Bible scholars residing in. These teachers' message is that the accounts of Genesis, Exodus, etc. did not really happen in history and that you're "missing the point" if you try to defend them as such. Their truth is only to be found in the symbolic story or metaphorical expression of God's salvation. But it would be folly to actually believe they happened.

When I hear learned Bible scholars making this claim, I keep saying to myself, Why not both? Why not the beauty of the metaphor and the power of the actual event? Why not give God all the glory by both believing in the power of His judgment and salvation in real history, and also realizing that they are symbolically pointing to greater fulfillment?

Listening to these scholars, I sometimes get the sense of almost a veneration they seem to have for the *non-historicity* of the Bible, as if the idea of Old Testament events actually occurring would somehow diminish the great spiritual power derived from the symbolism of the text. This seems totally backwards to me, as discovering the reality of the events described in Genesis, Exodus, etc. would only serve to emphasize God's real power and glory in His works upon the earth.

This "Scripture only as metaphor" idea seems completely at odds with what the scripture itself says loudly and repeatedly about giving God glory because of the works he has done on the earth in the sight of Israel. It seems to be in direct contradiction with Peter's letters, who directly warns of the error of disbelief in God's real and actual judgments upon the earth, as a warning of the judgment to come. (2 Peter 3)

As a final consideration... Peter, Paul, and Jesus himself all speak of the God's wrath upon the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

According to modern day Bible scholars, this judgment is supposed to be metaphorical or symbolic. And yet just last year, researchers have discovered overwhelming evidence of a "cosmic airburst" that literally destroyed these cities on the Dead Sea with fire raining down from the heavens, in the approximate Abrahamic time period.

So this is an awkward position to be in. The Genesis account of Sodom and Gomorrah seems to have actually happened. And yet esteemed Bible scholars claim the account was only ever meant to be a spiritual metaphor. Perhaps only just a few Genesis accounts real and then the rest metaphors? Even more awkward.

This is the article published in Nature:
A Tunguska sized airburst destroyed Tall el-Hammam a Middle Bronze Age city in the Jordan Valley near the Dead Sea | Scientific Reports (nature.com)

Sodom and Gomorrah: Biblical Archaeology - YouTube

It is my hope that Bible scholars finally come to believe that God did what He said He did... He really brought Israel out of Egypt as it is described in the Exodus... and that the reality of the actual event in history just makes the symbolism and metaphor foreshadowing God's ultimate fulfillment of prophecy that more powerful. God gets all the glory!

Thanks for reading

Maria Billingsley · Jan 12, 2022

lifepsyop said:
I have been listening to a popular Bible scholar who is very knowledgeable on the types and patterns found throughout scripture that tie all of the books together into one repeated theme and story of God's judgment and salvation. This person's teachings are edifying and reveal the magisterial beauty of how Jesus came to fulfill what was foreshadowed in so many accounts of ancient Israel.

I recently found this person making the statement that He does not actually believe the events of the Old Testament really happened, particularly the Pentateuch, putting him in the same camp that I've found many other highly knowledgeable Bible scholars residing in. These teachers' message is that the accounts of Genesis, Exodus, etc. did not really happen in history and that you're "missing the point" if you try to defend them as such. Their truth is only to be found in the symbolic story or metaphorical expression of God's salvation. But it would be folly to actually believe they happened.

When I hear learned Bible scholars making this claim, I keep saying to myself, Why not both? Why not the beauty of the metaphor and the power of the actual event? Why not give God all the glory by both believing in the power of His judgment and salvation in real history, and also realizing that they are symbolically pointing to greater fulfillment?

Listening to these scholars, I sometimes get the sense of almost a veneration they seem to have for the *non-historicity* of the Bible, as if the idea of Old Testament events actually occurring would somehow diminish the great spiritual power derived from the symbolism of the text. This seems totally backwards to me, as discovering the reality of the events described in Genesis, Exodus, etc. would only serve to emphasize God's real power and glory in His works upon the earth.

This "Scripture only as metaphor" idea seems completely at odds with what the scripture itself says loudly and repeatedly about giving God glory because of the works he has done on the earth in the sight of Israel. It seems to be in direct contradiction with Peter's letters, who directly warns of the error of disbelief in God's real and actual judgments upon the earth, as a warning of the judgment to come. (2 Peter 3)

As a final consideration... Peter, Paul, and Jesus himself all speak of the God's wrath upon the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

According to modern day Bible scholars, this judgment is supposed to be metaphorical or symbolic. And yet just last year, researchers have discovered overwhelming evidence of a "cosmic airburst" that literally destroyed these cities on the Dead Sea with fire raining down from the heavens, in the approximate Abrahamic time period.

So this is an awkward position to be in. The Genesis account of Sodom and Gomorrah seems to have actually happened. And yet esteemed Bible scholars claim the account was only ever meant to be a spiritual metaphor. Perhaps only just a few Genesis accounts real and then the rest metaphors? Even more awkward.

This is the article published in Nature:
A Tunguska sized airburst destroyed Tall el-Hammam a Middle Bronze Age city in the Jordan Valley near the Dead Sea | Scientific Reports (nature.com)

Sodom and Gomorrah: Biblical Archaeology - YouTube

It is my hope that Bible scholars finally come to believe that God did what He said He did... He really brought Israel out of Egypt as it is described in the Exodus... and that the reality of the actual event in history just makes the symbolism and metaphor foreshadowing God's ultimate fulfillment of prophecy that more powerful. God gets all the glory!

Thanks for reading

I think Bart Ehrman scholar-ed himself right out of Christianity. Unfortunate.
Blessings.

sandman · Jan 12, 2022

lifepsyop said:
I have been listening to a popular Bible scholar who is very knowledgeable on the types and patterns found throughout scripture that tie all of the books together into one repeated theme and story of God's judgment and salvation. This person's teachings are edifying and reveal the magisterial beauty of how Jesus came to fulfill what was foreshadowed in so many accounts of ancient Israel.

I recently found this person making the statement that He does not actually believe the events of the Old Testament really happened, particularly the Pentateuch, putting him in the same camp that I've found many other highly knowledgeable Bible scholars residing in. These teachers' message is that the accounts of Genesis, Exodus, etc. did not really happen in history and that you're "missing the point" if you try to defend them as such. Their truth is only to be found in the symbolic story or metaphorical expression of God's salvation. But it would be folly to actually believe they happened.

When I hear learned Bible scholars making this claim, I keep saying to myself, Why not both? Why not the beauty of the metaphor and the power of the actual event? Why not give God all the glory by both believing in the power of His judgment and salvation in real history, and also realizing that they are symbolically pointing to greater fulfillment?

Listening to these scholars, I sometimes get the sense of almost a veneration they seem to have for the *non-historicity* of the Bible, as if the idea of Old Testament events actually occurring would somehow diminish the great spiritual power derived from the symbolism of the text. This seems totally backwards to me, as discovering the reality of the events described in Genesis, Exodus, etc. would only serve to emphasize God's real power and glory in His works upon the earth.

This "Scripture only as metaphor" idea seems completely at odds with what the scripture itself says loudly and repeatedly about giving God glory because of the works he has done on the earth in the sight of Israel. It seems to be in direct contradiction with Peter's letters, who directly warns of the error of disbelief in God's real and actual judgments upon the earth, as a warning of the judgment to come. (2 Peter 3)

As a final consideration... Peter, Paul, and Jesus himself all speak of the God's wrath upon the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

According to modern day Bible scholars, this judgment is supposed to be metaphorical or symbolic. And yet just last year, researchers have discovered overwhelming evidence of a "cosmic airburst" that literally destroyed these cities on the Dead Sea with fire raining down from the heavens, in the approximate Abrahamic time period.

So this is an awkward position to be in. The Genesis account of Sodom and Gomorrah seems to have actually happened. And yet esteemed Bible scholars claim the account was only ever meant to be a spiritual metaphor. Perhaps only just a few Genesis accounts real and then the rest metaphors? Even more awkward.

This is the article published in Nature:
A Tunguska sized airburst destroyed Tall el-Hammam a Middle Bronze Age city in the Jordan Valley near the Dead Sea | Scientific Reports (nature.com)

Sodom and Gomorrah: Biblical Archaeology - YouTube

It is my hope that Bible scholars finally come to believe that God did what He said He did... He really brought Israel out of Egypt as it is described in the Exodus... and that the reality of the actual event in history just makes the symbolism and metaphor foreshadowing God's ultimate fulfillment of prophecy that more powerful. God gets all the glory!

Thanks for reading

I have no problem with people like that…and it doesn’t mean that everything they teach is wrong….you just have to know how to separate truth from error.

One of the things to remember, is what happened in paradise.

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Since that time, man has been trying to elevate himself above the truths of God…

Always look to ….where is the profit ( how is this blessing or benefiting Gods people) and who or where is the glory going ….is it going to God or man. I think in this case it is plain to see that those who teach this as a metaphor are the ones getting the glory …not God.

ChetSinger · Jan 12, 2022

I am sometimes bemused by believers who have no problem accepting the historicity and miracles of the New Testament, and then cannot seem to accept the historicity and miracles of the Old Testament.

eleos1954 · Jan 12, 2022

lifepsyop said:
I have been listening to a popular Bible scholar who is very knowledgeable on the types and patterns found throughout scripture that tie all of the books together into one repeated theme and story of God's judgment and salvation. This person's teachings are edifying and reveal the magisterial beauty of how Jesus came to fulfill what was foreshadowed in so many accounts of ancient Israel.

I recently found this person making the statement that He does not actually believe the events of the Old Testament really happened, particularly the Pentateuch, putting him in the same camp that I've found many other highly knowledgeable Bible scholars residing in. These teachers' message is that the accounts of Genesis, Exodus, etc. did not really happen in history and that you're "missing the point" if you try to defend them as such. Their truth is only to be found in the symbolic story or metaphorical expression of God's salvation. But it would be folly to actually believe they happened.

When I hear learned Bible scholars making this claim, I keep saying to myself, Why not both? Why not the beauty of the metaphor and the power of the actual event? Why not give God all the glory by both believing in the power of His judgment and salvation in real history, and also realizing that they are symbolically pointing to greater fulfillment?

Listening to these scholars, I sometimes get the sense of almost a veneration they seem to have for the *non-historicity* of the Bible, as if the idea of Old Testament events actually occurring would somehow diminish the great spiritual power derived from the symbolism of the text. This seems totally backwards to me, as discovering the reality of the events described in Genesis, Exodus, etc. would only serve to emphasize God's real power and glory in His works upon the earth.

This "Scripture only as metaphor" idea seems completely at odds with what the scripture itself says loudly and repeatedly about giving God glory because of the works he has done on the earth in the sight of Israel. It seems to be in direct contradiction with Peter's letters, who directly warns of the error of disbelief in God's real and actual judgments upon the earth, as a warning of the judgment to come. (2 Peter 3)

As a final consideration... Peter, Paul, and Jesus himself all speak of the God's wrath upon the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

According to modern day Bible scholars, this judgment is supposed to be metaphorical or symbolic. And yet just last year, researchers have discovered overwhelming evidence of a "cosmic airburst" that literally destroyed these cities on the Dead Sea with fire raining down from the heavens, in the approximate Abrahamic time period.

So this is an awkward position to be in. The Genesis account of Sodom and Gomorrah seems to have actually happened. And yet esteemed Bible scholars claim the account was only ever meant to be a spiritual metaphor. Perhaps only just a few Genesis accounts real and then the rest metaphors? Even more awkward.

This is the article published in Nature:
A Tunguska sized airburst destroyed Tall el-Hammam a Middle Bronze Age city in the Jordan Valley near the Dead Sea | Scientific Reports (nature.com)

Sodom and Gomorrah: Biblical Archaeology - YouTube

It is my hope that Bible scholars finally come to believe that God did what He said He did... He really brought Israel out of Egypt as it is described in the Exodus... and that the reality of the actual event in history just makes the symbolism and metaphor foreshadowing God's ultimate fulfillment of prophecy that more powerful. God gets all the glory!

Thanks for reading

Jesus taught from the OT and referred back to it on many occasions ... ie He came not to destroy ... but to fill fully

Matthew 5:17 (“Do not think that I have come to abolish Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”).

Jesus many times affirmed what happened in the OT .... ie like in the days of Noah .... sign of Jonah etc.

This person is in error ... we can trust the Word of God.

Soyeong · Jan 12, 2022

lifepsyop said:
I have been listening to a popular Bible scholar who is very knowledgeable on the types and patterns found throughout scripture that tie all of the books together into one repeated theme and story of God's judgment and salvation. This person's teachings are edifying and reveal the magisterial beauty of how Jesus came to fulfill what was foreshadowed in so many accounts of ancient Israel.

I recently found this person making the statement that He does not actually believe the events of the Old Testament really happened, particularly the Pentateuch, putting him in the same camp that I've found many other highly knowledgeable Bible scholars residing in. These teachers' message is that the accounts of Genesis, Exodus, etc. did not really happen in history and that you're "missing the point" if you try to defend them as such. Their truth is only to be found in the symbolic story or metaphorical expression of God's salvation. But it would be folly to actually believe they happened.

When I hear learned Bible scholars making this claim, I keep saying to myself, Why not both? Why not the beauty of the metaphor and the power of the actual event? Why not give God all the glory by both believing in the power of His judgment and salvation in real history, and also realizing that they are symbolically pointing to greater fulfillment?

Listening to these scholars, I sometimes get the sense of almost a veneration they seem to have for the *non-historicity* of the Bible, as if the idea of Old Testament events actually occurring would somehow diminish the great spiritual power derived from the symbolism of the text. This seems totally backwards to me, as discovering the reality of the events described in Genesis, Exodus, etc. would only serve to emphasize God's real power and glory in His works upon the earth.

This "Scripture only as metaphor" idea seems completely at odds with what the scripture itself says loudly and repeatedly about giving God glory because of the works he has done on the earth in the sight of Israel. It seems to be in direct contradiction with Peter's letters, who directly warns of the error of disbelief in God's real and actual judgments upon the earth, as a warning of the judgment to come. (2 Peter 3)

As a final consideration... Peter, Paul, and Jesus himself all speak of the God's wrath upon the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

According to modern day Bible scholars, this judgment is supposed to be metaphorical or symbolic. And yet just last year, researchers have discovered overwhelming evidence of a "cosmic airburst" that literally destroyed these cities on the Dead Sea with fire raining down from the heavens, in the approximate Abrahamic time period.

So this is an awkward position to be in. The Genesis account of Sodom and Gomorrah seems to have actually happened. And yet esteemed Bible scholars claim the account was only ever meant to be a spiritual metaphor. Perhaps only just a few Genesis accounts real and then the rest metaphors? Even more awkward.

This is the article published in Nature:
A Tunguska sized airburst destroyed Tall el-Hammam a Middle Bronze Age city in the Jordan Valley near the Dead Sea | Scientific Reports (nature.com)

Sodom and Gomorrah: Biblical Archaeology - YouTube

It is my hope that Bible scholars finally come to believe that God did what He said He did... He really brought Israel out of Egypt as it is described in the Exodus... and that the reality of the actual event in history just makes the symbolism and metaphor foreshadowing God's ultimate fulfillment of prophecy that more powerful. God gets all the glory!

Thanks for reading

A story does not need to be historical in order to convey truths, such as Beauty and the Beast conveying truths about the human condition. However, for example, Abraham lived to be 175 years, so we are only told about only get a handful of stories out of the many events that we could have been told about his life, so there is something important that the stories that were picked teach us about the nature of who God is. It doesn't make sense to thing that these stories teach us truths about the way that God expresses His nature, but also doubt that God would have actually acted that way in history.

BNR32FAN · Jan 12, 2022

lifepsyop said:
I have been listening to a popular Bible scholar who is very knowledgeable on the types and patterns found throughout scripture that tie all of the books together into one repeated theme and story of God's judgment and salvation. This person's teachings are edifying and reveal the magisterial beauty of how Jesus came to fulfill what was foreshadowed in so many accounts of ancient Israel.

I recently found this person making the statement that He does not actually believe the events of the Old Testament really happened, particularly the Pentateuch, putting him in the same camp that I've found many other highly knowledgeable Bible scholars residing in. These teachers' message is that the accounts of Genesis, Exodus, etc. did not really happen in history and that you're "missing the point" if you try to defend them as such. Their truth is only to be found in the symbolic story or metaphorical expression of God's salvation. But it would be folly to actually believe they happened.

When I hear learned Bible scholars making this claim, I keep saying to myself, Why not both? Why not the beauty of the metaphor and the power of the actual event? Why not give God all the glory by both believing in the power of His judgment and salvation in real history, and also realizing that they are symbolically pointing to greater fulfillment?

Listening to these scholars, I sometimes get the sense of almost a veneration they seem to have for the *non-historicity* of the Bible, as if the idea of Old Testament events actually occurring would somehow diminish the great spiritual power derived from the symbolism of the text. This seems totally backwards to me, as discovering the reality of the events described in Genesis, Exodus, etc. would only serve to emphasize God's real power and glory in His works upon the earth.

This "Scripture only as metaphor" idea seems completely at odds with what the scripture itself says loudly and repeatedly about giving God glory because of the works he has done on the earth in the sight of Israel. It seems to be in direct contradiction with Peter's letters, who directly warns of the error of disbelief in God's real and actual judgments upon the earth, as a warning of the judgment to come. (2 Peter 3)

As a final consideration... Peter, Paul, and Jesus himself all speak of the God's wrath upon the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

According to modern day Bible scholars, this judgment is supposed to be metaphorical or symbolic. And yet just last year, researchers have discovered overwhelming evidence of a "cosmic airburst" that literally destroyed these cities on the Dead Sea with fire raining down from the heavens, in the approximate Abrahamic time period.

So this is an awkward position to be in. The Genesis account of Sodom and Gomorrah seems to have actually happened. And yet esteemed Bible scholars claim the account was only ever meant to be a spiritual metaphor. Perhaps only just a few Genesis accounts real and then the rest metaphors? Even more awkward.

This is the article published in Nature:
A Tunguska sized airburst destroyed Tall el-Hammam a Middle Bronze Age city in the Jordan Valley near the Dead Sea | Scientific Reports (nature.com)

Sodom and Gomorrah: Biblical Archaeology - YouTube

It is my hope that Bible scholars finally come to believe that God did what He said He did... He really brought Israel out of Egypt as it is described in the Exodus... and that the reality of the actual event in history just makes the symbolism and metaphor foreshadowing God's ultimate fulfillment of prophecy that more powerful. God gets all the glory!

Thanks for reading

Perhaps these “esteemed scholars” shouldn’t be held in such high regard.

disciple Clint · Jan 13, 2022

lifepsyop said:
I have been listening to a popular Bible scholar who is very knowledgeable on the types and patterns found throughout scripture that tie all of the books together into one repeated theme and story of God's judgment and salvation. This person's teachings are edifying and reveal the magisterial beauty of how Jesus came to fulfill what was foreshadowed in so many accounts of ancient Israel.

I recently found this person making the statement that He does not actually believe the events of the Old Testament really happened, particularly the Pentateuch, putting him in the same camp that I've found many other highly knowledgeable Bible scholars residing in. These teachers' message is that the accounts of Genesis, Exodus, etc. did not really happen in history and that you're "missing the point" if you try to defend them as such. Their truth is only to be found in the symbolic story or metaphorical expression of God's salvation. But it would be folly to actually believe they happened.

When I hear learned Bible scholars making this claim, I keep saying to myself, Why not both? Why not the beauty of the metaphor and the power of the actual event? Why not give God all the glory by both believing in the power of His judgment and salvation in real history, and also realizing that they are symbolically pointing to greater fulfillment?

Listening to these scholars, I sometimes get the sense of almost a veneration they seem to have for the *non-historicity* of the Bible, as if the idea of Old Testament events actually occurring would somehow diminish the great spiritual power derived from the symbolism of the text. This seems totally backwards to me, as discovering the reality of the events described in Genesis, Exodus, etc. would only serve to emphasize God's real power and glory in His works upon the earth.

This "Scripture only as metaphor" idea seems completely at odds with what the scripture itself says loudly and repeatedly about giving God glory because of the works he has done on the earth in the sight of Israel. It seems to be in direct contradiction with Peter's letters, who directly warns of the error of disbelief in God's real and actual judgments upon the earth, as a warning of the judgment to come. (2 Peter 3)

As a final consideration... Peter, Paul, and Jesus himself all speak of the God's wrath upon the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

According to modern day Bible scholars, this judgment is supposed to be metaphorical or symbolic. And yet just last year, researchers have discovered overwhelming evidence of a "cosmic airburst" that literally destroyed these cities on the Dead Sea with fire raining down from the heavens, in the approximate Abrahamic time period.

So this is an awkward position to be in. The Genesis account of Sodom and Gomorrah seems to have actually happened. And yet esteemed Bible scholars claim the account was only ever meant to be a spiritual metaphor. Perhaps only just a few Genesis accounts real and then the rest metaphors? Even more awkward.

This is the article published in Nature:
A Tunguska sized airburst destroyed Tall el-Hammam a Middle Bronze Age city in the Jordan Valley near the Dead Sea | Scientific Reports (nature.com)

Sodom and Gomorrah: Biblical Archaeology - YouTube

It is my hope that Bible scholars finally come to believe that God did what He said He did... He really brought Israel out of Egypt as it is described in the Exodus... and that the reality of the actual event in history just makes the symbolism and metaphor foreshadowing God's ultimate fulfillment of prophecy that more powerful. God gets all the glory!

Thanks for reading

I think we have to understand that God is trying to explain things to people of the time who do not have the knowledge about science and other things that we have today. So not everything is intended to be taken literally.
Revealing the Christ: Understanding Augustine’s “Allegory”

Confused-by-christianity · Jan 13, 2022

lifepsyop said:
...the accounts of Genesis, Exodus, etc. did not really happen in history and that you're "missing the point" if you try to defend them as such. Their truth is only to be found in the symbolic story or metaphorical expression of God's salvation. ...

That has always been my assumption. In a number of cases, I didn't think I was supposed to take the scripture as a literal description of how stuff took place "materially".

Some of the assumptions I make when reading the bible are:

It's a spiritual book which can help me grow spiritually and philosophically but I shouldn't leave my senses at the door.
The people who wrote it weren't perfect and probably put their own nonsense in it.
God didn't write the bible but inspired it.
God lets us believe mistaken things - God sees our mistaken beliefs as a phase in our development that we are supposed to outgrow. He reveals truth to us bit by bit, as much as we can handle at the time. We are supposed to progress morally.
The bible is more like a really good song that inspires you to get up and dance. That doesn't mean all the lyrics in the song are factually correct - they don't need to be for it to move you.
It is a tool that you are to use as a lever to augment your own spiritual growth
A lot of things are actually the author's interpretation of events and not necessarily God telling you what happened. They reflect the spirituality of the time.

I wonder if any christians think the same as me?? I'm sure some do. I'm sure a lot don't haha

lifepsyop · Jan 13, 2022

disciple Clint said:
I think we have to understand that God is trying to explain things to people of the time who do not have the knowledge about science and other things that we have today. So not everything is intended to be taken literally.

The plagues of Egypt and the parting of the Red Sea
The pillar and cloud and manna in the wilderness
The destruction of Jericho and the conquest of Canaan
... to name a few events

Whether or not one has a scientific background has no relevance here. These accounts are not attempts to explain the Creation of the universe or anything like that but are written as eyewitness experiences of an entire nation in the midst of recorded human history. Yet these are the accounts that educated Bible scholars will say are only myths and metaphorical figures.

Why is the non-historical "metaphor only" interpretation imposed upon the Old Testament accounts in this way? Why not simply believe these events are true as they are written?

For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

- John 5:46-47

Confused-by-christianity · Jan 13, 2022

lifepsyop said:
...
Why is the non-historical "metaphor only" interpretation imposed upon the Old Testament accounts in this way? Why not simply believe these events are true as they are written?

The scholars might actually have a point.
If they are right, then you shouldn't be simply believing the events as they are written.
If you're supposed to be reading the OT as metaphor and instead you're determined to take it literally - I'd say it's not really carrying out God's will.

I assumed God gave abraham a little something to chew over, then the Israelites got a little more to work with, then Jesus gave more.???

hedrick · Jan 13, 2022

ChetSinger said:
I am sometimes bemused by believers who have no problem accepting the historicity and miracles of the New Testament, and then cannot seem to accept the historicity and miracles of the Old Testament.

The NT was written when there were still people around who had witnessed the events, or shortly after their death. The OT is not. And history, archaeology and science contradict various parts of the OT. The problem isn’t miracles, but what is known about history and the world.

lifepsyop · Jan 13, 2022

Soyeong said:
A story does not need to be historical in order to convey truths, such as Beauty and the Beast conveying truths about the human condition. However, for example, Abraham lived to be 175 years, so we are only told about only get a handful of stories out of the many events that we could have been told about his life, so there is something important that the stories that were picked teach us about the nature of who God is.

It doesn't make sense to thing that these stories teach us truths about the way that God expresses His nature, but also doubt that God would have actually acted that way in history.

I think about the Cross and the resurrection of Jesus. It is a symbol of our salvation, and a picture of our own future resurrection, but it would be utter folly to limit such an account to a symbolic, metaphorical, or literary device, and not understand that the events actually happened in reality, with real blood shed on a real wooden cross, and a real dead and buried body coming back to life.

God tells beautiful symbolic stories, but He paints these pictures with reality itself... and writes out His stories with real events rooted in history. Being the Creator and ultimate authority over this reality, the physical, actual, historical world is itself a type of language for Him to manipulate to His will.

It's frustrating to watch teachers who have spent so much time studying His word, hold themselves back from simply believing it as a child would. I tend to think the "wisdom of men" has just gotten too strong a hold on these individuals and they fear being looked down upon by their colleagues and peers. So calling the OT a metaphor is a way of trying to keep a foot in both worlds, by venerating the literary artistry of the Old Testamanet on one hand, and on the other hand conforming to an academic tradition that demands the OT be viewed as myth.

lifepsyop · Jan 13, 2022

Confused-by-christianity said:
The scholars might actually have a point.
If they are right, then you shouldn't be simply believing the events as they are written.
If you're supposed to be reading the OT as metaphor and instead you're determined to take it literally - I'd say it's not really carrying out God's will.

I do not discount the metaphorical, symbolic, literary quality of the scripture at all. The Bible is magisterial and the way it flows together is in my view, evidence of its divine authorship in itself. And believing the Biblical events are real history that really happened does not detract from its metaphorical quality at all. If anything, it reinforces the spiritual truth that is being communicated.

However, to say the OT must only be viewed as metaphor.... this is a perspective that is forced upon scripture, an interpretation imposed upon written accounts of events that by all appearances are written as historical accounts, filled to the brim with historical details.

Also, and perhaps most importantly, this "metaphor-only" belief also directly contradicts the views of Jesus and the apostles, who always spoke and wrote as if it were real history. This is kind of a big deal.

So why? Why should one force this interpretation that the OT is only metaphor?

lifepsyop · Jan 13, 2022

hedrick said:
The NT was written when there were still people around who had witnessed the events, or shortly after their death. The OT is not.

How do you know the accounts of the Old Testament were not written by witnesses?

Jesus himself says that Moses wrote parts of the Old Testament (at least up until he died before Israel entered Canaan)... "For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me." - John 5:46

hedrick said:
And history, archaeology and science contradict various parts of the OT. The problem isn’t miracles, but what is known about history and the world.

Of course they contradict. And the science of men has been wrong about history a million times over. So who are you going to believe? That is your choice.

There are a myriad of examples of OT locations and events that were once believed to be mythological by the academic and scientific world... now accepted as real history. (see the Sodom and Gomorrah reference in the OP for the most recent example)

Confused-by-christianity · Jan 13, 2022

lifepsyop said:
.... this is a perspective that is forced upon scripture, an interpretation imposed upon written accounts of events that by all appearances are written as historical accounts, filled to the brim with historical details.

I never saw biblical scholars as "forcing" anything on scripture - but I guess that's my experience and yours is different.

lifepsyop said:
.... Also, and perhaps most importantly, this "metaphor-only" belief also directly contradicts the views of Jesus

Personally - I don't know about that.
My assumption again here - but I assumed Jesus lead people to higher truths but also worked within the people's existing worldview sometimes - without necessarily correcting them on everything.
So for example - A boy might have had epilepsy and the crowd might have considered it a demon.

Jesus might not have corrected them - explained every detail of epilepsy to the crowd and then explained it was a healing of a medical ailment not the exorcism of a demon etc etc He might have just healed the boy and let everyone get on.

lifepsyop said:
....and the apostles, who always spoke and wrote as if it were real history. This is kind of a big deal.

haha Yeah - they probably did believe it literally.
I look back at them and think they were mistaken in they think reality is pieced together.
Ironically - they are in heaven now looking at me probably seeing how mistaken I am in my view of reality haha

lifepsyop said:
....So why? Why should one force this interpretation that the OT is only metaphor?

I can't say I've experienced anyone "forcing" this one on us. I don't know if anyone can "force" you to view the OT as metaphorical.
It's your choice.

Confused-by-christianity · Jan 13, 2022

lifepsyop said:
There are a myriad of examples of OT locations and events that were once believed to be mythological by the academic and scientific world... now accepted as real history. (see the Sodom and Gomorrah reference in the OP for the most recent example)

I love this about science.

If they are wrong - they say so. It's about the truth.

(Well - in theory haha I'm sure egos get bruised just as easily in the scientific community as the religious community - no one likes being wrong ;-) )

lifepsyop · Jan 13, 2022

Confused-by-christianity said:
My assumption again here - but I assumed Jesus lead people to higher truths but also worked within the people's existing worldview sometimes - without necessarily correcting them on everything.

But Jesus proclaimed that he was actually fulfilling the OT scriptures. (Luke 4:21)

Clearly, he considered the Old Testament to be more than just a cultural worldview for the purposes of relating to one another, don't you think?

Confused-by-christianity said:
So for example - A boy might have had epilepsy and the crowd might have considered it a demon.

Jesus might not have corrected them - explained every detail of epilepsy to the crowd and then explained it was a healing of a medical ailment not the exorcism of a demon etc etc He might have just healed the boy and let everyone get on.

Well, why are you imposing a naturalistic limitation onto the New Testament? Why must demons not exist? Because it offends our sensibilities?

What do you do with the account of Jesus directly conversing with demons and sending them into a herd of pigs who proceed to freak out and run themselves off a cliff? What is the 'natural' interpretation of this event? By imposing your own wisdom and understanding of things, you will run into many problems like this, finding yourself having to fight against what is plainly written in the text.

Confused-by-christianity said:
I can't say I've experienced anyone "forcing" this one on us. I don't know if anyone can "force" you to view the OT as metaphorical.

What I mean is that there are many Bible scholars who will insist that the OT be only interpreted metaphorically, and that it is foolish to believe the events actually happened in history.

Confused-by-christianity · Jan 13, 2022

lifepsyop said:
But Jesus proclaimed that he was actually fulfilling the OT scriptures. (Luke 4:21)
Clearly, he considered the Old Testament to be more than just a cultural worldview for the purposes of relating to one another, don't you think?

I wouldn't think that because Luke quotes Jesus as saying this, that that means Jesus had a literal view (or a metaphorical view) of the entire OT.

lifepsyop said:
... Why must demons not exist?

I didn't say that.

lifepsyop said:
... Because it offends our sensibilities?

Huh??

lifepsyop said:
...What do you do with the account of Jesus directly conversing with demons and sending them into a herd of pigs who proceed to freak out and run themselves off a cliff? What is the 'natural' interpretation of this event?

I think you've misunderstood what I was trying to say.

lifepsyop said:
... By imposing your own wisdom and understanding of things, you will run into many problems like this, finding yourself having to fight against what is plainly written in the text.

???

lifepsyop said:
... What I mean is that there are many Bible scholars who will insist that the OT be only interpreted metaphorically, and that it is foolish to believe the events actually happened in history.

I wouldn't worry about it. All people can do is present a case and try to convince you. If you remain unconvinced - that is your prerogative.
People tell me their view of the bible and christianity all the time. Sometimes - they aggressively assert that their view is the right one - but in the end, that's all they can do. If I remain (in good conscience) unconvinced - then they can't force anything on me.

They can insist - and threaten to take action. But that doesn't mean much - the only action they can really take against me is ... ????? cut me out of their church or cut relationship ties with me???

lifepsyop · Jan 13, 2022

Confused-by-christianity said:
I love this about science.

If they are wrong - they say so. It's about the truth.

(Well - in theory haha I'm sure egos get bruised just as easily in the scientific community as the religious community - no one likes being wrong ;-) )

Yea, if we are searching for myths, one of the biggest is that the scientific community pursues the truth of things disinterestedly and objectively and are happy to be proven wrong with evidence. Everyone brings their own philosophical commitments to the table, and everyone hates to be wrong.

And remember, scientists and academics had to first go through years and years of schooling in which they would be taught matter-of-factly that the Old Testament is essentially mythology with only a kernel of historical truth to it. It has become an established academic tradition to say so, (no matter how much evidence for the OT actually emerges from the buried rubble of the middle-east.)

the idea that the Old Testament is only metaphorical

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