What is "The Great tribulation"?

Timtofly · Jan 11, 2022

jgr said:
The word "harvest" does not appear in Matthew 24.

It does in Matthew 13. How many times will Christ and the angels come to earth?

jgr · Jan 11, 2022

Timtofly said:
It does in Matthew 13. How many times will Christ and the angels come to earth?

How many tribulations are in Matthew 13?

Timtofly · Jan 12, 2022

jgr said:
How many tribulations are in Matthew 13?

1

jgr · Jan 12, 2022

Timtofly said:
1

Same in Matthew 24.

Zao is life · Jan 12, 2022

claninja said:
well fulfilled means brought to completion.

I believe a virgin gave birth to Christ 2,000 years ago and “fulfilled” OT scriptures. I don’t believe another scenario of a virgin giving birth would fulfill these scriptures. Nor do I believe Christ will be born from a virgin again.

I believe Christ was lead like a lamb to the slaughter and “fulfilled” the OT scriptures. I don’t believe another scenario would fulfill these scripture. Nor do I believe Christ will be lead like a lamb to the slaughter again.

I believe the “great tribulation” or “hour of trial about to come upon the whole world” or “days of vengeance” of Daniel 12 and the olivet discourses refers to the Roman Empire wide persecution of Christians under nero, the Roman Empire wide civil war, and ultimately the destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70ad. For these days “fulfilled” all that was written

Luke 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

therefore, while other scenarios of tribulation for Christians may occur, they do not “fulfill” Daniel 12s great tribulation. This was “fulfilled” in the Destruction of Jerusalem per Christ’s words in the olivet discourse.

So if I'm not mistaken (please correct me if I'm wrong about anything I am assuming below) you obviously also believe in the Preterist belief that the temple that the man of sin "sat" (past tense) himself up in, "was" (past tense) a physical building (hieron) which remained standing in Jerusalem until 70 A.D, 40 years after the death of Christ,

Likewise, where Paul states in 2 Thessalonians 2 that Christ's return shall not come until the apostasy occurs and the man of sin seats himself up in the naos (the holy place consecrated to God where His Spirit dwells), you say that this apostasy occurred in the first century, and Christ has already returned? So I'm assuming that these are also the reasons why you say what you say above. If what I have assumed is the case, then I get it. I get where you're coming from.

@claninja I deleted the parts of this post that when I re-read, I realized were not friendly at all, because they were produced by the frustration I felt by my sudden realization that the reason you continued to argue so long in the other thread about the meaning of the word hieron, was because of a Preterist platform that cannot have the man of sin appearing at any other time, other than in the first century A.D. If I had known you were a Preterist, I would have understood long ago why you wouldn't let that disagreement (about the meaning of the word hieron) go.

To me, that's the problem with (any part of the church) adopting a basic eschatological platform from which to launch into the Apocalyptic/prophetic parts of scripture. You're (whoever has a platform) are going to interpret the Bible in terms of the platform, and the Bible may never re-form the platform.

Timtofly · Jan 12, 2022

jgr said:
Same in Matthew 24.

Then it is the one and only final harvest.

jgr · Jan 12, 2022

Timtofly said:
Then it is the one and only final harvest.

"Harvest" does not appear in Matthew 24.

Timtofly · Jan 12, 2022

jgr said:
"Harvest" does not appear in Matthew 24.

Is it the same tribulation in Matthew 13, or a different tribulation? How many final tribulations are there going to be? I already answered 1.

chad kincham · Jan 12, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
New Testament mentions of persecution and tribulation

Persecution:

Of Jesus: John 5:16

Of Christians:- Matthew 5: 19 & 12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1: 13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11.

Of the woman who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13.

Of the world at the hand of Christians: 0.00

Tribulation:

Of apostles or Christians:- Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9, 21 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:19 & 24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3; 1 Thessalonians 3: 4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14;

Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9

Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6

Great Tribulation:

Only three times does the New Testament use the Greek word megas (great) to describe the intensity of the tribulation (thlipsis):-

As the experience of Christians:- Revelation 2:22 (Greek words megas thlipsis); Revelation 7:14 (Greek words megas thlipsis).

Some say of Christians in the following verse, some say of Jews in A.D 70: Matthew 24:21 (Greek words megas thlipsis, see also Matthew 24:9, & Matthew 24:29).

Judgment and wrath vs tribulation in the Bible

1. Wrath: God's wrath has come upon a nation or nations at various times.
2. Judgment: God's judgment has come upon a nation or nations at various times.
3. Final Judgment. There are only two final judgments mentioned in the Bible.
4. Tribulation: A word which describes the experience of humans. The word is not necessarily linked to God's judgment.
5. Intense (great) tribulation.

WRATH
God's wrath has been poured out upon people and nations over the course of human history, but it has not necessarily been poured out upon the whole world in each case (for example: Exodus 15:3-7).

JUDGMENT
God's wrath being poured out upon a people is always a judgement, since it is always produced by God’s burning anger (thymós in the Greek; chârôn in the Hebrew), but it’s not always a final judgement:

A final judgement came upon Babylon (Jeremiah 50:13) when the wrath of God came upon the city, but a final judgement did not come upon Jerusalem when the wrath of God came upon the city (at the time Jerusalem was destroyed by the armies of Babylon).

FINAL JUDGMENT
The first time in the Bible that we read about humanity being finally judged is in the account of the flood in Genesis, when only the elect (Noah and his family) were saved.

The last time we read about humanity being finally judged is in the Revelation, where we read about fire coming down from heaven and destroying the armies of the rebellious nations who had surrounded the camp of the saints (Revelation 20:9).

TRIBULATION
(i) Tribulation is merely a word which describes the experience of humans, whether they be Jews or Gentiles, believers or unbelievers; and God’s elect people have experienced periods of tribulation more than once.

(ii) A period of tribulation being experienced by any people may or may not be what they are experiencing as a result of God's wrath, (for example, the tribulation that Christians experienced under the hand of Nero was not as a result of God's wrath coming upon them, nor was the tribulation Israel experienced under the hand of Pharaoh in Egypt),

but the plagues were being experienced by the Egyptians as a result of God's judgment, in much the same way as the seven last plagues will be experienced by those "who had the mark of the beast, and on those who worshiped his image" (Revelation 16:2).

Luke 21:23 describes Jesus’ prophecy regarding the tribulation that was to come upon the people of Jerusalem, and mentions this period of tribulation as coming about as a result of God’s wrath:

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress (ἀνάγκη anánkē) in the land and wrath (ὀργή orgḗ) on this people."

SAVED FROM WRATH

The beast of Revelation 13 will make war against the saints and overcome them (Revelation 13:7)

1 Thessalonians 5
9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 5
8 But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Luke 21 (talking about the wrath of God to come)
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts are weighed down with headaches and drinking and anxieties of this life; and that day should suddenly come on you;
35 for it shall come as a snare on all those sitting on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch therefore, praying in every season that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things which shall occur, and to stand before the Son of man.

The Greek word tēréō means to guard (from loss or injury), by keeping the eye upon:

John 17
6 I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave to Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have kept (tēréō) Your word.

11 And now I am in the world no longer, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep (tēréō) them in Your name, those whom You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept (tēréō) them in Your name. Those that You have given Me I have kept (tēréō), and none of them is lost, except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world that they might have My joy fulfilled in them.
14 I have given them Your Word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I do not pray for You to take them out of the world, but for You to keep (tēréō) them from the evil.

There is not one verse in the New Testament where tēréō does not mean to observe, to guard, to keep. Not one.

Revelation 3
10 Because you have kept (tēréō) the word of My patience, I also will keep (tēréō) you from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.

In Revelation 3:10, Jesus is telling the faithful in His church that He will guard them, keep them, keep His eye upon them during the hour of trial. He is not saying that He will take them out of the world before the hour of trial has even come.

Hour of trial:

Revelation 17
12 And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast.

16 and the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked. And they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

Revelation 18
10 standing afar off for fear of her torment, saying, Woe! Woe to the great city, Babylon, that strong city! For in one hour your judgment came.

New Jerusalem is a city of gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 21:18-21).
The Harlot is decked with gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 17:4). She acts like she's very holy, and claims to be on fire for Christ, "filled with the Spirit".

When Revelation 17:16 comes upon the harlot, it comes upon the entire church. Every time God purged Israel in the past of its "dross" or its tares, the faithful suffered too (such as when Babylon destroyed Jerusalem and all went into captivity);

and Jesus has (i) rebuked and warned the harlot about this in Revelation 2:20-23; and (2) counseled the lukewarm in Revelation 3:18; and (3) commended the faithful in Revelation 2:8-11 and Revelation 3:7-13; and (4) exhorted all Christians in His closing statement to each one of the seven churches.

We see the immediate aftermath of it all in Revelation 7:13-17; and read about it erupting in Revelation 13:7; Revelation 13:15; and Revelation 17:16.

The New Testament, like the entire Bible, makes a clear distinction between wrath and tribulation.

"PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE"

Huh? Isn't this conflating tribulation with wrath? What is "The Great Tribulation"?

Tribulation just means trouble. That is it’s definition.

The great tribulation is the 42 months that the beast we call the antichrist is given power to make war on the saints, give the mark of the beast, and execute those who won’t take it, and the time Gods wrath and judgment is poured out on the world.

Zao is life · Jan 12, 2022

[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]
Thanks for that. Thanks very much. I do see where you're coming from now.

I do find (what I view as) some logical fallacies in your arguments, but I don't want to point them out because I have a sense of the Lord restraining me right now from debating any of the points you put forward (it's not like you're denying the fundamental tenets of our faith in Christ, just speaking about how you view the Olivet Discourse, 2 Thessalonians 2, etc), and after assuming (falsely) in the other thread that you were just arguing to make me argue, it's time for me to be restrained a while.

I appreciate the fact that you laid it out so clearly, and you do have some good points also (although I believe you are maybe? applying facts to an already established position, whether or not the position is correct).

Thanks again brother.

Zao is life · Jan 12, 2022

chad kincham said:
Tribulation just means trouble. That is it’s definition.

The great tribulation is the 42 months that the beast we call the antichrist is given power to make war on the saints, give the mark of the beast, and execute those who won’t take it, and the time Gods wrath and judgment is poured out on the world.

Wish I could be a Preterist. But then I wouldn't be expecting anything. Wish I could be a Pre-Trib rapture-ist. But then I wouldn't be expecting anything. Wish I could be apathetic (No, no that I don't wish, and it won't work either).

chad kincham · Jan 12, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Wish I could be a Preterist. But then I wouldn't be expecting anything. Wish I could be a Pre-Trib rapture-ist. But then I wouldn't be expecting anything. Wish I could be apathetic (No, no that I don't wish, and it won't work either).

If you believe in the coming rapture and tribulation, then you’re expecting something.

jgr · Jan 13, 2022

Timtofly said:
Is it the same tribulation in Matthew 13, or a different tribulation? How many final tribulations are there going to be? I already answered 1.

There are numerous references to different tribulations throughout the NT.

None of them is identified as final.

Timtofly · Jan 13, 2022

jgr said:
There are numerous references to different tribulations throughout the NT.

None of them is identified as final.

So tribulation carries on into the NHNE?

sovereigngrace · Jan 13, 2022

Timtofly said:
So tribulation carries on into the NHNE?

Why do you have to twist what every posters say? Do you feel comfortable doing that? Are you not convicted?

claninja · Jan 13, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Thanks for that. Thanks very much. I do see where you're coming from now.

I do find (what I view as) some logical fallacies in your arguments, but I don't want to point them out because I have a sense of the Lord restraining me right now from debating any of the points you put forward (it's not like you're denying the fundamental tenets of our faith in Christ, just speaking about how you view the Olivet Discourse, 2 Thessalonians 2, etc), and after assuming (falsely) in the other thread that you were just arguing to make me argue, it's time for me to be restrained a while.

I appreciate the fact that you laid it out so clearly, and you do have some good points also (although I believe you are maybe? applying facts to an already established position, whether or not the position is correct).

Thanks again brother.

no problem brother.

Correct, the partial preterist position is already established.

I view the olivet discourse as completely fulfilled in light of the partial preterist understanding. Thus, I believe the “great tribulation” and the “coming of Christ” in the olivet discourse refer to destruction of Israel through Christ coming in judgement upon Them in 70ad BECAUSE Christ stated “this generation” would not pass away until those events occurred.

from CF rules:
“Partial Preterism: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero. The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.”

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Wish I could be a Preterist. But then I wouldn't be expecting anything.

However, as a partial preterist, I don’t believe the fulfillment of the olivet discourse precludes a future coming, judgement, and resurrection. There is still much to be expecting.

jgr · Jan 13, 2022

Timtofly said:
So tribulation carries on into the NHNE?

What tribulation do you think is final?

Zao is life · Jan 13, 2022

Jamdoc said:
I groan every time I hear someone regurgitate the phrase "the seven year tribulation".

Biblically speaking.. Great Tribulation as Jesus puts it, lasts from after the midpoint of the 70th week, when the Abomination of Desolation is set up, until the 6th seal.
Anything before that, and after that, is not Great Tribulation.

Matthew 24 15-22, Matthew 24:29-31, and Revelation 6:12-17 basically lay this out on their own.

Of note.. the first 5 seals of Revelation 6, are all actions caused by men, they are sovereignly permitted to happen as Jesus removes the seals that held back these things from happening (on a worldwide scale), now they become permitted, but, it's at the hands of men that all of them happen, until the 6th seal which is where God intervenes and does things that men cannot do.

It sounds like with minor differences we're seeing the same things. I see the seals as signifying something written in the scroll, and all seven seals have to be opened before we can "see" the contents of the scroll, so what you said above about the seals is interesting.

I also see the 6th seal, the armies seen in the sixth trumpet, and the armies of the beast seen in the 6th bowl of wrath (6 6 6), as possibly all being a Revelation about the same events.

But the word possibly = I don't assume I know. But the thundering and lightning and earthquake seen in all these: seventh seal, seventh trumpet, seventh bowl of wrath (7 7 7) I believe possibly is meant to take the reader's mind back to the seven priests and seven trumpets (Jericho) when the walls fell at the sounding of the seventh trumpet, the seventh time the people marched around the city on the seventh day.

But I don't sit excitedly trying to work it out, and I know I could be wrong about anything that comes into my mind and it doesn't mean it's fact just because it came into my mind. I just calmly sit and read and study and wait on the Lord to give me as much understanding as He wills to give me, and as little as He wills (because a little knowledge is a dangerous thing for some of us,. i.e me).

Zao is life · Jan 13, 2022

chad kincham said:
If you believe in coming rapture and tribulation, then you’re expecting something.

True.

Zao is life · Jan 13, 2022

claninja said:
no problem brother.

Correct, the partial preterist position is already established.

I view the olivet discourse as completely fulfilled in light of the partial preterist understanding. Thus, I believe the “great tribulation” and the “coming of Christ” in the olivet discourse refer to destruction of Israel through Christ coming in judgement upon Them in 70ad BECAUSE Christ stated “this generation” would not pass away until those events occurred.

from CF rules:
“Partial Preterism: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero. The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.”

However, as a partial preterist, I don’t believe the fulfillment of the olivet discourse precludes a future coming, judgement, and resurrection. There is still much to be expecting.

Thanks for that. It's a relief to know that you believe that the Lord's return and the resurrection of the dead is still future (I don't know why, but it's always a relief to me). The idea that the Lord has already returned is very "strange and foreign to my culture" (figuratively speaking).

When it comes to the Olivet Discourse I'm in the "Not sure", i.e "Could have all been fulfilled in A,D 70, but if so, then these verses don't really make sense" camp, which overlaps with the other camp I'm in: "Could both have been fulfilled, but is also going to be fulfilled."

What is "The Great tribulation"?

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