Paul on the Law: Galatians 3

Clare73 · Jan 11, 2022

daq said:
If this is true then why does Paul say of the flesh that he serves the torah-instruction concerning sin, in Romans 7:25?

Paul is referring to his experience of being a Jew (and Pharisee), before he believed in Christ (Romans 7:24-25).

Clare73 · Jan 11, 2022

daq said:
Amen!

Matthew 5:29 ASV
29 And if thy right eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body be cast into hell [Gehenna].

It's a shame that people are offended at the teachings of Paul and that they cannot even tell that, just as he says, he is teaching the commandments of the Master, (1 Corinthians 14:37).

Romans 7:14-25 KJV
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Why should this offend anyone? If your carcass is sold under sin then should you not cut it off and all its deeds so that it doesn't take you with it when it perishes? Oh well, everyone has their own choice to make, just as Moses in the Torah, the Messiah in the Gospel accounts, and Paul in his letters have taught.

Be careful that the letters of Paul do not slay you, for those words of his are surely true: for indeed the letter kills, but that does not only apply to the Torah, it applies to your choice of understanding

Good grief. . .

The "letter" is the written code (the law, in contrast to the Holy "Spirit"). . .it kills because "all you rely on observing the law are under a curse" (Galatians 3:10)

Clare73 · Jan 11, 2022

daq said:
Hi Carl, I'll post the questions separately and give it a go.

Observing the Torah according to the flesh: which is to walk in the "works of the law", which is the Pharisaic natural minded interpretations of the Torah.

Nope. . .relying on law-keeping for justification (righteousness) which is by faith only, apart from faith's works (law keeping).

They had apparently backslidden back into the old Pharisaic natural minded way of understanding the Torah:

Nope. . .they were relying on law-keeping for justification (righteousness) instead of faith only, apart from faith works (law keeping).

one is walking according to the natural minded understanding of the Torah, and even all of the scripture, then the same has chosen death, and that is according to Paul and even according to the Torah. There are two ways of understanding: one is life, (Messiah), and the other is death, (natural minded thinking and understanding).

Nope. . .they were to avoid seeking salvation/justification by law-keeping, for it is only by faith, apart from faith's works (law keeping).

Clare73 · Jan 11, 2022

HARK! said:
We could come up with all sorts of simple hypothetical explanations that fit the narrative effortlessly; but that wouldn't be exercising due diligence.

The fact is that the word salvation appears nowhere in this letter.

But "justification" does; i.e., righteousness by faith only, apart from faith's works (as is salvation), and that is what the issue is.

daq · Jan 11, 2022

Clare73 said:
Paul is referring to his experience of being a Jew (and Pharisee), before he believed in Christ (Romans 7:24-25).

If I already stated that I don't accept that theory from someone else then why would I accept the same theory from you?

Clare73 said:
Good grief. . .

The "letter" is the written code (the law, in contrast to the Holy "Spirit"). . .it kills because "all you rely on observing the law are under a curse" (Galatians 3:10)

Good grief to you too, but nope, I don't believe this theory either.

Clare73 said:
Nope. . .relying on law-keeping for justification (righteousness) which is by faith only, apart from faith's works (law keeping).

Nope. . .they were relying on law-keeping for justification (righteousness) instead of faith only, apart from faith works (law keeping).

Nope. . .they were to avoid seeking salvation/justification by law-keeping, for it is only by faith, apart from faith's works (law keeping).

Nope, nope, and nope.

I'm not interested in pontifications and empty assertions so, unless you can support the things you assert with relevant and properly understood scripture, we are at an impasse.

Clare73 · Jan 11, 2022

daq said:
If I already stated that I don't accept that theory from someone else then why would I accept the same theory from you?

What "theory" do you accept?

grief to you too, but nope, I don't believe this theory either.

Not a theory, clearly stated in the Scripture provided.

Nope, nope and nope. . .

Scripture provided in the passage.

You simply don't believe the NT.

BobRyan · Jan 11, 2022

chad kincham said:
Except the law of Moses had not one drop of grace, or faith, in it - deliberately. .

1. Moses and Elijah stand with Christ in glory in Matt 17 --- before the cross ever happened.
2. In Moses' writing we have the life of Abraham and Gal 3:8 says "the gospel was preached to Abraham"
3. Gen 3 contains what is called the "protoevangelium" (also known as the protevangelium, proto-evangelium or protoevangelion) - the first gospel prophecy.
4. All saints in OT and NT are saved by grace through faith and that is because Gal 1:6-9 informs us that there has ever and only been - "one Gospel" not two.
5. In Matt 19 Jesus said to "KEEP the commandments" and is asked "Which ones?" - he then quotes only from the "Law of Moses"

daq · Jan 11, 2022

Clare73 said:
What "theory" do you accept?

My understanding of Paul in Romans 7 is not a theory unless you can prove otherwise. I read the text as from a teacher to a student. The teacher never said anything to me in Romans 7 about him speaking of himself before he became a believer. I already quoted his words and they are plain as day to anyone willing to believe what he says.

Clare73 said:
You simply don't believe the NT.

Says the one who keeps denying plain and obvious teachings of Paul. The fact that you now make false accusations only shows that we are indeed at an impasse because you don't have any evidence from the scripture for your assertions. There was just in the last few days a discussion in one of the threads in Sabbath and the Law, about dogma, and you asserted there also that Paul means the Torah when he uses the word dogma. If you will foist your own dogma on the writings of Paul then what will you do to those who actually believe his writings? Exactly what you are doing here: pushing your own dogma.

BobRyan · Jan 11, 2022

Dkh587 said:
Is it grace or mercy that we need when we transgress the law?

When we disobey, we need mercy, not grace, or more correctly translated, favor.

I’m sure you know that favor & mercy are 2 separate words.

Grace is what allows us to receive mercy.

Clare73 · Jan 11, 2022

daq said:
My understanding of Paul in Romans 7 is not a theory unless you can prove otherwise. I read the text as from a teacher to a student. The teacher never said anything to me in Romans 7 about him speaking of himself before he became a believer.

That would be your "theory."

There was just in the last few days a discussion in one of the threads in Sabbath and the Law, about dogma, and
you asserted there also that Paul means the Torah when he uses the word dogma.

You have me mixed up with someone else.

"The Law (of Moses)" means the Torah (Luke 24:44).

daq · Jan 11, 2022

Clare73 said:
That would be your "theory."

Then prove it from the context. Prove from the context that Paul is speaking about his former life. Prove your own assertion. Otherwise it's just your own dogma.

Clare73 said:
You have me mixed up with someone else.

No, I do not.

Bruce Leiter · Jan 11, 2022

HARK! said:
There was no question. This is a study on how Paul's teachings relate to the Torah. This portion of this extensive study covers Galatians 3. The OP is the comment.

Paul taught almost exclusively from the TaNaK.

What is the TaNaK? Please write in plain English instead of these acronyms.

Clare73 · Jan 11, 2022

daq said:
Then prove it from the context.
Prove from the context that Paul is speaking about his former life.

It's not that complicated.

Prove your own assertion. Otherwise it's just your own dogma.

And you certainly have a lot of experience with asserting "your own dogma."

Paul after his conversion was no longer under the Law of Moses, (1 Corinthians 9:20), but rather under the law of Christ, which is the law of God (1 Corinthians 9:21), as well as "any other commandment there may be," as stated in Romans 13:8-10.

In Romans 7:7 Paul is still under the law; i.e., before his conversion, which experience he describes in Romans 7:7-23. . .until the end of the passage in his deliverance in Christ (7:25a), followed by a summary of the passage (7:25b) of Romans 7:13-24.

No, I do not.

"The Law (of Moses)" also means the Torah (Luke 24:44; Matthew 7:12, 22:40).

HARK! · Jan 11, 2022

Clare73 said:
Paul is referring to his experience of being a Jew (and Pharisee), before he believed in Christ (Romans 7:24-25).

Well that could, optimistically, be true; if we climbed way out on a limb, and started grasping for straws; but it still wouldn't work. Paul is speaking in the present tense. We'd have to be doing a little time traveling, back and forth, with him; before he even finished his sentence.

Clare73 · Jan 11, 2022

HARK! said:
Well that could, optimistically, be true; if we climbed way out on a limb, and started grasping for straws; but it still wouldn't work.
Paul is speaking in the present tense. We'd have to be doing a little time traveling, back and forth, with him; before he even finished his sentence.

Romans 7:7-13 are past tense.

If Romans 7:14-23 is present tense as you say, that makes 7:24 future tense, having not yet occurred... time travel indeed! . .his deliverance before he even knew about it.

Don't think so. . .it's merely past tense from vv.7-23, and present tense in v.25a,
with a summary of the past (vv.7-23) in v. 25b.

HARK! · Jan 11, 2022

Clare73 said:
Romans 7:7-13 are past tense.

If Romans 7:14-23 is present tense as you say, that makes 7:24 future tense, having not yet occurred... time travel indeed! . .his deliverance before he even knew about it.

Don't think so. . .it's merely past tense from vv.7-23, and present tense in v.25a,
with a summary of the past (vv.7-23) in v. 25b.

Paul says the same thing here:

(CLV) Ga 5:17
For the flesh is lusting against the spirit, yet the spirit against the flesh. Now these are opposing one another, lest you should be doing these whatever you may want.

This applies to past, present, and future...no need to time travel to understand this message.

Clare73 · Jan 11, 2022

HARK! said:
Paul says the same thing here:

(CLV) Ga 5:17
For the flesh is lusting against the spirit, yet the spirit against the flesh. Now these are opposing one another, lest you should be doing these whatever you may want.

Half a text is a pretext.

And "the rest of the story". . .

"Those who belong to Jesus Christ have crucified (slain) the sinful nature with its passions and desires.
Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit." (Galatians 5:24-25).

This applies to past, present, and future...

Don't think so. . .the conflict applies only to the past.

no need to time travel to understand this message.

Agreed. . .it's about the present for the believer.

HARK! · Jan 11, 2022

Clare73 said:
Don't think so. . .the conflict applies only to the past.

This war continues, even for those who walk perfectly.

(CLV) Hb 4:15
For we have not a Chief Priest not able to sympathize with our infirmities, but One Who has been tried in all respects like us, apart from sin.

I would go on to say that the more perfectly we walk, the greater the number of warriors that fight against our ruach.

Clare73 · Jan 11, 2022

HARK! said:
This war continues, even for those who walk perfectly.

(CLV) Hb 4:15
For we have not a Chief Priest not able to sympathize with our infirmities, but One Who has been tried in all respects like us, apart from sin.

And "infirmities" (weaknesses) do not refer to the sinful nature with its controlling passions and desires, which have been crucified by those who belong to Christ and who now live by the Spirit (Galatians 5:24-25).

I would go on to say that the more perfectly we walk, the greater the number of warriors that fight against our ruach.

Which is the opposite of being controlled by passions and desires.

HARK! · Jan 11, 2022

Clare73 said:
And "infirmities" (weaknesses) do not refer to the sinful nature with its controlling passions and desires, which have been crucified by those who belong to Christ and who now live by the Spirit (Galatians 5:24-25).

Which is the opposite of being controlled by passions and desires.

I said nothing about being controlled. Being controlled and being tempted are two very different things.

Clare73 said:
Which is the opposite of being controlled by passions and desires.

I understand the difference between being controlled and being at war. I would detail the differences for you; but that is not the topic of this thread.

Paul on the Law: Galatians 3

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