What is the great army in Joel?

Acts29 said:

The issue I have here is "assuming" who Joel spoke to is relevent. There have been many thousands of prophets throughout history in Israel. 99% of what they said was never written down. It seems reasonable that the ones that did record their revelations were recorded because they did not apply to the current generation at that time. They will apply at some future time. God is eternal and time is not a factor. His words could be many thousands of years in advance just as easily as one year in advance. That is why I think focusing closely on what is written rather than leaning on ones own understanding works best. (General statement. Not accusing you at all.)

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How is it not relevant who was being written to? Does the intended audience ever have relevance when you read the Bible? Just like Isaiah, Jeremiah, and a lot of the other prophets, Joel was warning of Israel's destruction because of their sins. That's not an assumption, that's history.

Peter also said in acts 2 that what was happening was spoken of in Joel.

*The other post is there now*

Acts29 said:

I'm glad the disagreement isn't taken too far. I'm with you there!

My understanding that all the prophets wrote about the time of the end is not making it about "we or us." There were thousands of prophets in Israel's history that guided the people at the time. Only a select few were ever written down. Why? They were written down to passed on from generation to generation because they did not apply at that time. What about the people that lived between 300-1800 AD? What prophecies applied in their day? None.

It isn't about us to begin with. It is about the revelation of Jesus Christ. What did Nebuchadnezzar, Antiochus Epiphanes, Rome, or even 70 AD have to do with the revelation of Jesus Christ? It is, and has always been, about Him and His kingdom from the very beginning. When the prophecies begin to actually be fulfilled it will be a wakeup call to anyone paying attention. Prophecy is the mercy of God to a people just before Jesus comes. It isn't fortune telling or predicting the future to show off.

There have been countless wars all throughout history that have nothing to do with scripture. So, I don't see why Isaiah had to only write about an ancient Babylon that nothing to do with the revelation of Jesus Christ. Trying to make Joel about history doesn't work either. The actual text just doesn't line up with what happened. Either God is very dramatic, promising much and delivering little, or He wasn't talking about ancient Babylon at all. The fact that we still see God talking about Babylon in Revelation makes it pretty plain to me.

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I agree that it's ultimately and only about Jesus: The blood of Christ became necessary for anyone to receive grace and have a relationship with God the moment Adam ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

I also agree that the prophecies about the end of this Age contained in the Revelation are not about ancient Babylon. But the same applies with regards to the prophecies about the destruction of ancient Babylon: they are not about the end of this Age.

You've removed all the steps from God's unfolding plan that God took along the way. Every generation since Adam, including Seth's, Noah's, Shem's and Abraham's and all generations that followed, has been as important to God and to His Messiah, and to His method of bringing the Messiah into the world, as our generation or the generation that will be living at the time that the final 3.5 years of this Age (which precede the return of Christ), commences.

Of course God also spoke through His prophets to, and about the generations which preceded ours.

[QUOTE="There is a saying among traditional Jewish scholars that, " pattern is prophecy", which is also suggesting that things which have happened before may happen again, as well. Pictures of past events may be telling us things about prophesied future events as well."Unquote

I like that saying, because it's true. If the Rabbis recognize that "pattern is prophecy" it makes me shudder to think that maybe Rabbis who do not even believe in Jesus may have a better understanding of the Revelation that most Christians do.[/QUOTE]

Maybe, but the majority of modern day rabbis are talmudic rabbis and are very strongly opposed to the possibility that Jesus is the Messiah. The talmud came from Babylon, it's the word of man and not the word of God. The earlier form of Judaism was Mosaic Judaism, which is much closer to what Jesus was teaching. Modern day Judaism has many different books and some of them are definitely not very Godly at all. Modern day Christianity has been becoming less biblical and less well grounded in many churches and some people neither read the bible for themselves and have limited understanding of the traditional Jewish background of the bible.

Some aspects of earlier Jewish understanding, help to explain some sayings in the bible, which are translated from Hebrew figures of speech and make actual ways of expressing scriptual arguements easiers to comprehend. Obviously we need to not be influenced by anything which is not sound Christian teaching, or Christian doctrine. Understanding figure of speech which are used to illustrate doctrinal arguements and understanding are extremely helpful and are already included the both the old testament and the new testament will help us to clearly appreciate what is behind many words, which we don't realise mean a lot more than we may be thinking.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

You're talking about the first Babylonia, not the Babylonian Empire that Isaiah was prophesying about, which only came into existence after 620 BC, when Nabopolassar seized control over much of Babylonia. He only defeated the kings of Assyria and managed to establish the Babylonian Empire that Isaiah was prophesying about, some years later.

The destruction of the Babylon that Isaiah was prophesying about, came swiftly.

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I think that your knowledge of babylonian history is probably greater than mine. I was talking in general about the times of the captivity of the children of Israel in Babylon.

Trusting in Him said:

Maybe, but the majority of modern day rabbis are talmudic rabbis and are very strongly opposed to the possibility that Jesus is the Messiah. The talmud came from Babylon, it's the word of man and not the word of God. The earlier form of Judaism was Mosaic Judaism, which is much closer to what Jesus was teaching. Modern day Judaism has many different books and some of them are definitely not very Godly at all. Modern day Christianity has been becoming less biblical and less well grounded in many churches and some people neither read the bible for themselves and have limited understanding of the traditional Jewish background of the bible.

Some aspects of earlier Jewish understanding, help to explain some sayings in the bible, which are translated from Hebrew figures of speech and make actual ways of expressing scriptual arguements easiers to comprehend. Obviously we need to not be influenced by anything which is not sound Christian teaching, or Christian doctrine. Understanding figure of speech which are used to illustrate doctrinal arguements and understanding are extremely helpful and are already included the both the old testament and the new testament will help us to clearly appreciate what is behind many words, which we don't realise mean a lot more than we may be thinking.

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Yes, I agree. I'm not at all interested in what Rabbis say when it's to do with what they think about Jesus, or about anything that lies in our future, or how they interpret scriptures like Isaiah 2:2,

but I also do think that when it comes to what certain expressions mean, that pop up repeatedly in prophecy (and in some Psalms), they could teach Christians a thing or two about when not to take a statement up literally, and they could probably teach Christians a thing or two about what you say above regarding figures of speech used by Christ and His apostles.

So my policy when it comes to anything Rabbis say is, "swallow the fish and spit out the bones".

Acts29 said:

What is this great army? Where/when does it fit into your understanding of prophecy? Thanks.

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What Joel is describing is a Coronal Mass Ejection, an explosion of the suns surface. That it will have cosmic effects, is proved by Joel 2:30-31
It will make the sun suddenly flash 7 times brighter and the moon reflect as brightly as the sun, Isaiah 30:26a
Then as the main mass strikes the earth, at mid day ME time, Zephaniah 2:4, Malachi 4:1 & 3, it will affect all the world as it rotates: Joel 2:2-3....as the morning comes, devouring fire will leap over the mountains; before it is verdant life, behind is a desolate waste. Hosea 4:3, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +
The sun being darkened, Joel 2:31, is because the approaching mass will obscure the sun and the moon will flare bright red as it is struck by the superheated Hydrogen plasma, causing a thermoluminescent reaction, with the metallic oxides on the moons surface.

We have been warned in over 100 prophesies about this forthcoming worldwide disaster. The Lord will send His fiery wrath; Amos 1, Psalms 11:4-6, 2 Peter 3:7
We need to be prepared; physically and spiritually for this and be ready to call on the Name of the Lord and to trust in His protection. Isaiah 41:13 & 43:2, +

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Or the armies of Babylon, and again later on, Rome, and possibly also the above army. But Judah and Jerusalem may have joined the above army against the saints in Christ.

We have to be careful not to exalt what God does not exalt.

Philippians 2
9 Therefore God has highly exalted Him, and has given Him a name which is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth;
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

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I think that prophecies can have multiple fulfillments. Fulfilled in part, then later in full. So this is a possibility. The Babylonians could be a partial fulfillment or "type" of the final fulfillment in Revelation.

Trusting in Him said:

I think that your knowledge of babylonian history is probably greater than mine. I was talking in general about the times of the captivity of the children of Israel in Babylon.

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I don't really have a detailed knowledge, just the very basics. The first Babylonian Empire that @Acts29 was talking about, that was in decline for hundreds of years, was established by Nimrod:

Genesis 10
8 And Cush fathered Nimrod. He began to be a mighty one in the earth.
9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD. Therefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.
10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.
11 Out of that land he went forth to Assyria. And he built Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah,
12 and Resen between Nineveh and Calah, which is a great city.

But the territories remained (just like the territories in Europe after the gradual decline of the Roman Empire, some of which later became incorporated into "The Holy Roman Empire").

In the case of ancient Babylon it was Nabopolassar who subdued all these peoples under him and a few years later, the Assyrian king's armies were defeated and (what was then a neo-Babylonian) Empire was born. It was after 615 B.C that it was established, and only lasted until circa 539 B.C when Babylon was invaded by Cyrus or one of the Persian kings - 76 years.

Torah Keeper said:

I think that prophecies can have multiple fulfillments. Fulfilled in part, then later in full. So this is a possibility. The Babylonians could be a partial fulfillment or "type" of the final fulfillment in Revelation.

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Likewise I agree partly, lol.

A biblical type of the last days global new world order and its ten kings, definitely. Same spirit as was found in ancient Babylon, and indeed the daughter of ancient Babylon, just as Rome was.

But I believe the question we need to ask when reading prophecies about the destruction of Babylon should be, "was this Babylon that is being referred to here by Isaiah (or whichever prophet) destroyed, or not?"; and, "How completely was she destroyed?"

Acts29 said:

The prophets that are written down, were written so they could be passed to future generations. 99% of what prophets said to Israel was never written down. Those words applied to the people at that time. The written words were well understood to apply to later generations. You assume the people the day were the intended audience, but that just isn't the case. The people of the day knew this.

If Peter said Joel was happening in his day, why do you think it was about ancient Babylon? Examine Joel carefully. Is there anything in it that took place in during the Babylonian invasion? If not, why keep assuming?

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I suppose I gave quick answers as I was as work.

Yes there are signs of things that were to come in Joel. But the main point was the impending destruction of Israel and the first temple. Just like most of the other prophets. They were future for Joel, not us. The army in Joel would have been the army that destroyed Israel the first time.

The future happenings were pointing to the destruction of Jerusalem and the second temple in 70ad. Daniel points to it as well. Those things started being fulfilled once Jesus showed up. That's why I was saying Peter claimed Joel was being fulfilled.

You guys are funny.Have any of you thought about technology and the role of robotics? But just read chapter 2.And try to think outside of the box. Here is a clip from the movie I Robot.

Acts29 said:

Joel 1:1 - 2:9 describes a great army coming against Israel. I will pluck out a few verses for information gathering purposes. (LXX version)

Joel 1:5 “Awake, you drunkards, from your wine, and weep: mourn, all you that drink wine to drunkenness: for joy and gladness and removed are from your mouth. 6 For a strong and innumerable nation is come up against My land, their teeth are lion’s teeth, and their back teeth those of a lion’s cub. 7 They have ruined My vine, and utterly broken My fig-trees: they have utterly searched My vine, and cast it down; they have peeled its branches.

Joel 1:9 The meat-offering and drink-offering are removed from the house of Yehovah: mourn, you priests that serve at the altar of Yehovah. ... 13 “Gird yourselves with sackcloth, and lament, you priests: mourn, you that serve at the altar: go in, sleep in sackcloth, you that minister to God: for the meat-offering and drink-offering are withheld from the house of your God. ... 16 Your meat has been destroyed before your eyes, joy and gladness from out of the house of your God.

There must be a Temple, sacrifices, etc. when this army comes.

Joel 1:11 the farmers are consumed: mourn your property on account of the wheat and barley; for the harvest has perished from off the field.

Must be an early Springtime event.

Joel 1:15 Alas, Alas, Alas for the day! For the day of Yehovah is near, and it will come as trouble upon trouble. ... 2:1 “Sound the trumpet in Zion, make a proclamation in My holy mountain, and let all the inhabitants of the land be confounded: for the day of Yehovah is near

The Day of the Lord is near, not here. So, it seems this will occur just before the Day of the Lord.

Joel 2:2 ... a numerous and strong people shall be spread upon the mountains as the morning; there has not been from the beginning one like it, and after it there shall not be again even to the years of many generations.

A unique event that has never happened before, not will happen again, for at least many generations.

Joel 2:3 Before them is a consuming fire, and behind them is a flame kindled: the land before them is as a paradise of delight, and behind them a desolate plain:
NKJV 2:3 A fire devours before them, And behind them a flame burns; The land is like the Garden of Eden before them, And behind them a desolate wilderness

This occurs at a time of great peace and prosperity. Then, the land is desolate when they leave.

Joel 2:4 Their appearance is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they pursue. 5 As the sound of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, and as the sound of a flame of fire devouring stubble, and as a numerous and strong people setting themselves in array for battle. 6 Before them shall the people be crushed: every face shall be as the blackness of a cauldron. 7 As warriors shall they run, and as men of war shall they mount on the walls; and each shall move in his right path, and they shall not turn aside from their tracks: 8 and not one shall stand aloof from his brother: they shall go on weighed down with their arms, and they fall upon their weapons, yet shall they in no way be destroyed. 9 They shall seize upon the city, and run upon the walls, and go up upon the houses, and enter in through the windows as thieves.

They appear as horses and horsemen, yet they cannot be harmed by any weapons. Leaping on to tops of mountains? Entering windows like thieves? Are these people?

Joel 2:10 Before them the earth shall be confounded, and the sky shall be shaken: the sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their light. 11 And Yehovah shall utter His voice before His host: for His camp is very great: for the execution of His word is mighty. For the day of Yehovah is great, very glorious, and who shall be able to resist it?

It appears that the great army is the host of heaven, and not a human army. Though, I do note that this is the Day of the Lord. Whereas earlier, the Day of the Lord was near. So, there could be a difference.

Joel 2:13 And rend your hearts, and not your garments, and turn to Yehovah your God: for He is merciful and compassionate, long-suffering, and plentiful in mercy, and repents of evils. 14 Who knows if He will return, and repent, and leave a blessing behind Him, even a meat-offering and a drink-offering to Yehovah your God?”

It certainly appears that Yehovah is leading this army Himself. "He may return and leave a blessing behind Him."

Joel 2:15 Sound the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, proclaim a solemn service: 16 gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the infants at the breast: let the Bridegroom go forth of His chamber, and the bride out of her closet.

Perhaps, the coming of the Bridegroom that Jesus talked about in Matthew 25?

Temple in place. Early springtime event. Prior to the Day of the Lord. A time of peace and prosperity. (Perhaps, the "peace and safety" Paul talked about?) A unique event that has never happened before.

What is this great army? Where/when does it fit into your understanding of prophecy? Thanks.

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I think you missed, " afterwards".....this was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost leaving nothing left to be fulfilled.
“And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

Acts29 said:

I appreciate your efforts here. I do. I just cannot accept the "literary hyperbole" theory. I know it is the first thing taught at Bible college. There is a fatal flaw with the theory, imo. If God did not really mean what He said and His word is hyperbole, it is like a piece of artwork. The interpretation is in the eye of the beholder. To me, that would make the Bible worthless. I have to believe Day of the Lord means Day of the Lord. I have to believe the sun and moon going dark means the sun and moon will go dark. To consider otherwise would just be unbelief and leaning on ones own understanding to me. I do understand many feel differently about this, but it is just something I cannot accept. Thanks.

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Why did Paul teach that we need spiritual discernment to understand scripture (1 Cor 2:9-16) if it all just means what it says? Are Jesus's parables and much of the books of Daniel and Revelation worthless because they don't mean what they say in a literal sense? Of course not. So, I couldn't disagree more with you about this.

Acts29 said:

Are you saying the army of Yehovah is a coronal mass ejection? Or, the mass ejection is part of this event?

The army is described as horsemen and chariots. The host of Yehovah. Etc. I am guessing you are saying the coronal mass ejection coincides with the coming of the host? Not sure I follow exactly.

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The Prophet Joel uses the metaphor of an army; a vast horde, to describe the overpowering mass that will strike the earth on the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath. He knew nothing about the sun and its 11 year cycles of sunspot activity.

It is not and cannot be a human army. The effects described simply don't fit.
Did you or anyone bother to look up the supporting scriptures I provided? And there is plenty more that make a CME instigated by the Lord, as the only explanation for what will happen to change the world and set the scene for all the prophesied things to happen before Jesus Returns.

Maria Billingsley said:

I think you missed, " afterwards".....this was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost leaving nothing left to be fulfilled.
“And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

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The day of Pentecost appears to be only a partial fulfillment of Joel. After this Joel writes of the coming Day of the Lord, with all of its cosmic implications.

And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.
- Joel 2:30-31

The apostle Peter makes it very clear that the Day of the Lord is yet to come.

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
- 2 Peter 3:9-13


The invasions of Assyria and Babylon and the destruction wrought by Rome on Jerusalem, are all types of God's wrath on a disobedient nation. God's final emptying of wrath comes in destruction of the heavens and earth itself, described in the trumpets and bowls of Revelation, including what appears to be a final destroying army he sends against the rebellious city.

Some push the idea that all of these cosmic descriptors (sun, moon, stars, heavens, etc.) are just metaphors for the rulers of the earth. Peter's 2nd epistle seems to be one big admonishment for this error. He rebukes the church for not believing in these judgments and asserts in no uncertain terms that the earth is destined for cosmic destruction upon the Lord's return.

lifepsyop said:

The day of Pentecost appears to be only a partial fulfillment of Joel. After this Joel writes of the coming Day of the Lord, with all of its cosmic implications.

And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.
- Joel 2:30-31

The apostle Peter makes it very clear that the Day of the Lord is yet to come.

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
- 2 Peter 3:9-13


The invasions of Assyria and Babylon and the destruction wrought by Rome on Jerusalem, are all types of God's wrath on a disobedient nation. God's final emptying of wrath comes in destruction of the heavens and earth itself, described in the trumpets and bowls of Revelation, including what appears to be a final destroying army he sends against the rebellious city.

Some push the idea that all of these cosmic descriptors (sun, moon, stars, heavens, etc.) are just metaphors for the rulers of the earth. Peter's 2nd epistle seems to be one big admonishment for this error. He rebukes the church for not believing in these judgments and asserts in no uncertain terms that the earth is destined for cosmic destruction upon the Lord's return.

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Judgment and the end of the age, Temple Judaism, came to an end in 70AD. There is nothing left to be fulfilled in the future, except the second comming of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
Blessings

lifepsyop said:

the earth is destined for cosmic destruction upon the Lord's return.

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The Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath does not happen at the Return of Jesus. Then; He merely destroys the armies of the AC by the Sword of His Word. Revelation 19:11-21
Then commences His Millennium reign.

The Sixth Seal is the Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath; at least 10 years before the Return. It will set the scene for all the rest of the prophesied things before the Return.