David Bentley Hart on Hell

Der Alte · Jan 10, 2022

JulieB67 said:
The thing about most of these verses is that they are basically applying death with the death of physical body and how we that are still living in our earthly bodies view them -the dead.
Solomon wrote Ecclesiastes to the man that walks under the sun, again earthly people. It's a wonderful book that we can apply on our to live our lives to the fullest and what really matters- concerning the fruits of our labor, much of life being full of vanity (emptiness, etc)
Throughout the book concerning the dead though he talks about how they have no reward, etc they basically have no more use, concerning, life on "earth". Even the memory of them fades which is so true concerning even within our own family trees. Who can name people in their family so many generations back? He's right- they start to fade. They have no more reward on this earth. Whatever they had belongs to someone else and so on.
Once we are done with these flesh bodies they have no more purpose. They return to dust but the spirit still goes back to God who gave it. It's that dust in the grave that can't think, praise, have reward, etc.

Is it you opinion that God did not inspire any of the verses I quoted, that they all about what the writer could see? Without any statement to that effect anywhere in scripture how would the then contemporaneous people would understand it?

Proverbs 24:20 for the evildoer has no future hope and the lamp or the wicked will be snuffed out.
Which is ironic coming from you because you don't believe the wicked will be "snuffed out".

Was this also not inspired by God? Please tell me what "the evildoer has no future hope" "really means."

JulieB67 · Jan 10, 2022

Andrewn said:
What do you make of

Ecc 3:19 For the fate of the children of Adam and the fate of animals is the same. As one dies, so dies the other; they all have the same spirit. People have no advantage over animals since everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place; all come from dust, and all return to dust. 21 Who knows if the spirits of the children of Adam go upward and the spirits of animals go downward to the earth?

I think it's basically stating while we are still on earth, the same thing befalls man and beast in the flesh. We are both made from the earth and once we die, our "flesh" bodies return to the earth.

Ecclesiastes 3:18 "I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts."

Ecclesiastes 3:19 "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even on thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity."

Ecclesiastes 3:20 "All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again."

Ecclesiastes 3:21 "Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?"

The first part is of course the silver cord breaking and returning to the Father.

The second part is where man and beast are different. Man definitely has the higher spirit here although I have my opinions on animals in the eternity and think we will have them. I truly believe God loves all of his creations and we can see that some animals will lie with each other and so on. But also we just cannot lean onto our own understanding of some things too and just trust him on certain things.

ETA and I know the word "breath/spirit are both translated from "ruwach" but we know it can have different meanings when applied to different verses. It can mean to breath or it can also apply to a being, mind and so on.

And the next verse goes back to Solomon's overall theme,

Ecclesiastes 3:22 "Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?"

Andrewn said:

Proverbs and Ecclesiastes are great. But if we build theology on them we end up in far field. This is what prosperity gospel preachers did.

Click to expand...

Well, I think the entire bible is profitable, because we certainly can't understand the end, if we don't understand the beginnings. It's God's letter to us, overall plan, etc. Christ often asks, "Haven't you read?" He's talking about the OT. And Paul states that things happened back then for our ensample.

But yes, I agree. People can't fixate on certain books, etc on that being their guide. I feel the same way about verses as well. I think the entire bible needs to be taken as a whole.

Der Alte · Jan 10, 2022

Andrewn said:
* * * Most of your supporting quotations are from the OT. As a Christian, I believe in progressive revelation. The OT is extremely useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. But Christian theology is based on the Christian Scriptures. So, I will only comment on verses from the NT. * * *

The Old Testament was the only Bible that Jesus and His disciples had and they quoted it 283 times. That's good enough for me.

JulieB67 · Jan 10, 2022

Der Alte said:
Was this also not inspired by God? Please tell me what "the evildoer has no future hope" "really means."

I believe all scripture is inspired by God just as he is the one that gave Solomon his wisdom. And seeing as all wisdom comes from God, of course it's inspired by him. That does not change what I had written.

I believe this verse just as it's written,

12) Proverbs 24:20 for the evildoer has no future hope and the lamp or the wicked will be snuffed out.

And the translation I go by has the very same meaning,

Proverbs 24:20 "For there shall be no reward to the evil man; The candle of the wicked shall be put out."

What happens when a candle is put out? It gives no more flame/light. It has been extinguished.

As you once posted to me that you had already posted your beliefs, I also have posted mine. But once again, I believe that the wicked will "perish" be fully destroyed in the LOF. That's why the evildoer has no future hope. Whereas you don't believe they will be "snuffed out/put out" in the LOF but live there for the eternity.

Andrewn · Jan 10, 2022

Der Alte said:
The Old Testament was the only Bible that Jesus and His disciples had and they quoted it 283 times. That's good enough for me.

The NT actually contains about 855 quotes and allusions of the OT.

Luk 24:25 He said to them, “O fools! And slow of heart to believe what the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter His glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

http://scwtenor.com/harmony/wp-cont...in-the-Old-Testament-in-the-New-Testament.pdf

Der Alte · Jan 10, 2022

JulieB67 said:
I believe all scripture is inspired by God just as he is the one that gave Solomon his wisdom. And seeing as all wisdom comes from God, of course it's inspired by him. That does not change what I had written.
I believe this verse just as it's written,
12) Proverbs 24:20 for the evildoer has no future hope and the lamp or the wicked will be snuffed out.
And the translation I go by has the very same meaning,
Proverbs 24:20 "For there shall be no reward to the evil man; The candle of the wicked shall be put out."
What happens when a candle is put out? It gives no more flame/light. It has been extinguished.
As you once posted to me that you had already posted your beliefs, I also have posted mine. But once again, I believe that the wicked will "perish" be fully destroyed in the LOF. That's why the evildoer has no future hope. Whereas you don't believe they will be "snuffed out/put out" in the LOF but live there for the eternity.

I believe all the verses I posted but I also believe Jesus. And every verse I quoted means exactly what they say. None of the words need to be explained what they "really mean."
Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12

[A fate worse than death. DA]
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA]

…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught, e.g., “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it very likely would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4

…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times if the Jewish teaching on hell was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, e.g.

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17).
Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16 | USCCB

Light of the East · Jan 10, 2022

Der Alte said:
I am puzzled. How does Paul saying 22 categories of people have no inheritance in the kingdom of God equal "His [Paul] real theology seems consistently universalist?"

Because you don't understand what Paul is saying. He is not speaking about the eternal state. He is speaking about whether one, upon death, enters into the eternal kingdom or into the cleansing of the Lake of Fire. You are determined to see Paul's statements as a description of the final state of souls. Of course, the problem with this is that once you do so, you set up contradictions in the Scriptures.

Light of the East · Jan 10, 2022

QUOTE="Der Alte, I believe all the verses I posted but I also believe Jesus. And every verse I quoted means exactly what they say. None of the words need to be explained what they "really mean."
Jesus taught e.g.,

You are so full of it! The Greek doesn't read that way. Let me correct these for you.

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into age-lasting (aionios) fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41

• "these shall go away into age-lasting correction, Matthew 25:46"

• "the fire of the garbage dump of Jerusalem [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"

• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50 The furnace (κάμινος kaminos) is a smelting furnace. If you were half the biblical scholar you fancy yourself to be, you would know this. Smelting furnaces are for cleansing out impurities, not for destruction.

• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]

This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with your fanciful idea of an eternal hell. Jesus is warning those listening that anyone who offended His "little ones" (not children, the disciples) will suffer a horrendous fate when Jerusalem is destroyed in AD 70.

• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23

Depart from me - where? Into the cleansing furnace (κάμινος kaminos) where your sins will be cleansed, and you will be changed. Again, you are doing what all hellists do - reading into the text what you wish to see without doing any deeper research.

• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]

There is a whole article on this misappropriation of what Jesus said. Of course, when I need it, I can't find it. The gist of it is that the sentence structure does not lend itself to Judas being the subject of woe unto that man. The woe unto man is Jesus Himself, and in human terms, it would have been better for Him if Judas had not been born.

• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12

[A fate worse than death. DA]

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell.

Not what Jewish sources I have read say. Eternal hell did not come into Jewish thought until the Helenization of the Jews in the beginning of the second century. Stop reading corrupted sources that support your view.

In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA]

…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.

Eternal torture is not vengeance. It is sadism. How come you don't understand the difference? You are like the guy who owns a hammer and suddenly, everything he looks at looks like a nail to him.

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” No, He said "age-lasting correction" (kolasis) What kind of sadistic God to you believe in anyway???

….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment. They didn't believe in the Resurrection and you source them?? I don't make a habit out of sourcing people who have been proven wrong.

Der Alte · Jan 10, 2022

Light of the East said:
Because you don't understand what Paul is saying. He is not speaking about the eternal state. He is speaking about whether one, upon death, enters into the eternal kingdom or into the cleansing of the Lake of Fire. You are determined to see Paul's statements as a description of the final state of souls. Of course, the problem with this is that once you do so, you set up contradictions in the Scriptures.

Rather it is you who does not understand what Paul is saying. He said what he meant and meant what he said. In the 4 passages I quoted 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:5, 1 Corinthians 3:17 Paul mentioned 22 groups of people of whom he said they have no inheritance in the kingdom of God. I would say that is as definite as he could have stated that. One vs. I quoted Paul said whoever defiled the temple God would destroy. He didn't say what would happen before.
If you think there are contradictions please identify them and I will reconcile them.

Der Alte · Jan 10, 2022

Light of the East said:
QUOTE="Der Alte, I believe all the verses I posted but I also believe Jesus. And every verse I quoted means exactly what they say. None of the words need to be explained what they "really mean."
Jesus taught e.g.,

You are so full of it! The Greek doesn't read that way. Let me correct these for you.

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into age-lasting (aionios) fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41

• "these shall go away into age-lasting correction, Matthew 25:46"

• "the fire of the garbage dump of Jerusalem [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"

• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50 The furnace (κάμινος kaminos) is a smelting furnace. If you were half the biblical scholar you fancy yourself to be, you would know this. Smelting furnaces are for cleansing out impurities, not for destruction.

• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]

This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with your fanciful idea of an eternal hell. Jesus is warning those listening that anyone who offended His "little ones" (not children, the disciples) will suffer a horrendous fate when Jerusalem is destroyed in AD 70.

• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23

Depart from me - where? Into the cleansing furnace (κάμινος kaminos) where your sins will be cleansed, and you will be changed. Again, you are doing what all hellists do - reading into the text what you wish to see without doing any deeper research.

• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]

There is a whole article on this misappropriation of what Jesus said. Of course, when I need it, I can't find it. The gist of it is that the sentence structure does not lend itself to Judas being the subject of woe unto that man. The woe unto man is Jesus Himself, and in human terms, it would have been better for Him if Judas had not been born.

• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
[A fate worse than death. DA]

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell.

Not what Jewish sources I have read say. Eternal hell did not come into Jewish thought until the Helenization of the Jews in the beginning of the second century. Stop reading corrupted sources that support your view.

In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA]
…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.

Eternal torture is not vengeance. It is sadism. How come you don't understand the difference? You are like the guy who owns a hammer and suddenly, everything he looks at looks like a nail to him.

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” No, He said "age-lasting correction" (kolasis) What kind of sadistic God to you believe in anyway???

….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment. They didn't believe in the Resurrection and you source them?? I don't make a habit out of sourcing people who have been proven wrong.

Der Alte · Jan 10, 2022

Light of the East said:
[QUOTE="Der Alte, I believe all the verses I posted but I also believe Jesus. And every verse I quoted means exactly what they say. None of the words need to be explained what they "really mean."

Jesus taught e.g.,
You are so full of it! The Greek doesn't read that way. Let me correct these for you.

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into age-lasting (aionios) fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into age-lasting correction, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of the garbage dump of Jerusalem [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48" * * *[/QUOTE]

Whenever I post a reply to someone I expect them to actually do some self study not just repeat back whatever their so-called leaders/teachers/pastors have told them. I have been active at this forum for more than 2 decades. I have heard every specious argument and out-of-context proof text. I realized early on that they all get repeated on this forum on almost a daily basis so I started saving my responses. I review my saved responses frequently and make changes, additions and deletions as necessary. I will respond to each one of the above comments in separate posts.
The word "aionios" correctly translated "eternal" in all my posts is an adjective. But the URists don't accept that so they change it into a noun,age, and a preposition, lasting. They could not find an adjective to make it say what they want it to.
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is correctly translated eternal 42 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is correctly translated everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, Jesus never used “aionios” to refer something common, ordinary or mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
…..Some people claim that “aionios” never means eternal, forever, everlasting because it sometimes refer to something which is not eternal.
However, “aionios” is never defined/described, by adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything common, ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternity.

[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.
I suggest you find some honest "teachers,""leaders,""pastors."

Light of the East · Jan 10, 2022

I suggest you find some honest "teachers,""leaders,""pastors."

That is a profoundly arrogant statement. It assumes bad faith on people who have studied for years. It also assumes that your definition is better than their definition.

Look, there is no convincing you. You are hard as rock. I will just say this: if God created this world ex nihlo without any need to do so, knowing that souls would fall into eternal, conscious, horrible torment, and went ahead and did so anyway (meaning He had absolutely no concern for the eternal condition of these poor people), then He is not love - He is a sadistic psychopath of the worst sort and creation is an unparalleled act of meanness and spite. You don't get that, but that is the foundation of everything - God is love and love would never do such a thing. If you think it would, then you have a bizarre idea of what love is.

Thank you for your time.

Der Alte · Jan 10, 2022

Light of the East said:
Jesus taught e.g.,

• "the fire of the garbage dump of Jerusalem [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48" * * *

There was a trash dump outside Jerusalem but it was NOT the valley of Hinnom it was the next valley over the Kidron valley.
Something you might like to remember I never say anything I can't back up. After reading this you might want to question what else have your "leaders,""teachers," "pastors" been lying to you about?
Here is real, evidence personally researched by me, with links for verification.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...Articles/BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm

…..Note; there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location … Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray [one of my professors] in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/

= = = = =
That was the negative evidence, here is the positive evidence.

.....Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.
…..Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers.
...
Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem
Jerusalem’s Garbage

Der Alte · Jan 10, 2022

Light of the East said:
I suggest you find some honest "teachers,""leaders,""pastors."
That is a profoundly arrogant statement. It assumes bad faith on people who have studied for years. It also assumes that your definition is better than their definition.
Look, there is no convincing you. You are hard as rock. I will just say this: if God created this world ex nihlo without any need to do so, knowing that souls would fall into eternal, conscious, horrible torment, and went ahead and did so anyway (meaning He had absolutely no concern for the eternal condition of these poor people), then He is not love - He is a sadistic psychopath of the worst sort and creation is an unparalleled act of meanness and spite. You don't get that, but that is the foundation of everything - God is love and love would never do such a thing. If you think it would, then you have a bizarre idea of what love is.
Thank you for your time.

Oh I get it that is what you want the Bible to say and since it doesn't you have to change the meaning of words in the Bible to make them say what you want them to.
Was all this done in love?

Genesis 7:19-23
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Genesis 19:23-25
23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.
24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
Numbers 21:1-3
1 And when king Arad the Canaanite, which dwelt in the south, heard tell that Israel came by the way of the spies; then he fought against Israel, and took some of them prisoners.
2 And Israel vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou wilt indeed deliver this people into my hand, then I will utterly destroy their cities.
3 And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah.
Numbers 24:17-19
17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.
18 And Edom shall be a possession, Seir also shall be a possession for his enemies; and Israel shall do valiantly.
19 Out of Jacob shall come he that shall have dominion, and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city.
Deuteronomy 2:34-35
34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:
35 Only the cattle we took for a prey unto ourselves, and the spoil of the cities which we took.

Der Alte · Jan 10, 2022

Light of the East said:
* * *
There is a whole article on this misappropriation of what Jesus said. Of course, when I need it, I can't find it. The gist of it is that the sentence structure does not lend itself to Judas being the subject of woe unto that man. The woe unto man is Jesus Himself, and in human terms, it would have been better for Him if Judas had not been born.

What a pity. You [supposedly] have something, somewhere which "proves" me wrong but you just can't find it right now. Yeah right! I have some ocean front properly in Arizona I'll let you have real cheap., too.

Not what Jewish sources I have read say. Eternal hell did not come into Jewish thought until the Helenization of the Jews in the beginning of the second century. Stop reading corrupted sources that support your view.

Total nonsense. Try reading my posts instead of ignoring them and posting unsupported nonsense trying to prove me wrong. I quoted, and linked to, three Jewish sources, the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, the 1971 Encyclopedia Judaica and the pe-Christian Talmud, which all agree there was a significant belief, in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus of a place of eternal fiery punishment which the Jews called both sheol and Ge hinnom, written and hades and Gehenna, in both the 225 BC LXX and the N.T.

Eternal torture is not vengeance. It is sadism. How come you don't understand the difference? You are like the guy who owns a hammer and suddenly, everything he looks at looks like a nail to him.…. No, He said "age-lasting correction" (kolasis) What kind of sadistic God to you believe in anyway???

…. No, He said "age-lasting correction" (kolasis) What kind of sadistic God to you believe in anyway???

Total rubbish. I have already shown in this thread using only the words of Jesus that "aionios" means "eternal." The word "kolasis" means punishment NOT correction. Close you eyes and stick your fingers in your ears. This verse, the only other occurrence of "kolasis," clearly shows that "kolasis" does NOT mean "correction

1 John 4:18
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment.[κολασις/kolasis] He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

The one who has kolasis is not made perfect, i.e. NOT corrected.

….They didn't believe in the Resurrection and you source them?? I don't make a habit out of sourcing people who have been proven wrong.

More total rubbish. That the Jews did not believe in the resurrection has no bearing on anything. They believed in Hell, Jesus knew they believed in hell but He never confronted them on that belief. What Jesus taught about the fate of the unrighteous mirrored what the Jews believed. Try reading my posts and learn some truth.

hedrick · Jan 10, 2022

Der Alte said:
What a pity. You [supposedly] have something, somewhere which "proves" me wrong but you just can't find it right now. Yeah right! I have some ocean front properly in Arizona I'll let you have real cheap., too.

Total nonsense. Try reading my posts instead of ignoring them and posting unsupported nonsense trying to prove me wrong. I quoted, and linked to, three Jewish sources, the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, the 1971 Encyclopedia Judaica and the pe-Christian Talmud, which all agree there was a significant belief, in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus of a place of eternal fiery punishment which the Jews called both sheol and Ge hinnom, written and hades and Gehenna, in both the 225 BC LXX and the N.T.

Total rubbish. I have already shown in this thread using only the words of Jesus that "aionios" means "eternal." The word "kolasis" means punishment NOT correction. Close you eyes and stick your fingers in your ears. This verse, the only other occurrence of "kolasis," clearly shows that "kolasis" does NOT mean "correction

1 John 4:18
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment.[κολασις/kolasis] He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
The one who has kolasis is not made perfect, i.e. NOT corrected.

More total rubbish. That the Jews did not believe in the resurrection has no bearing on anything. They believed in Hell, Jesus knew they believed in hell but He never confronted them on that belief. What Jesus taught about the fate of the unrighteous mirrored what the Jews believed. Try reading my posts and learn some truth.

The Talmud is certainly not pre Christian. A few of the rabbis it quotes were pre Christian, but we don’t know how accurate the quotes are. That’s not to deny that there was an idea of eternal punishment in the first century, but I’m not convinced we know how many people believed what.

Ceallaigh · Jan 11, 2022

Everyone is full of rubbish and what they have to say is irrelevant and meaningless

Der Alte · Jan 11, 2022

hedrick said:
The Talmud is certainly not pre Christian. A few of the rabbis it quotes were pre Christian, but we don’t know how accurate the quotes are. That’s not to deny that there was an idea of eternal punishment in the first century, but I’m not convinced we know how many people believed what.

You are correct 3d to 5th century. Funny how the question of the accuracy of the Jewish writings comes into question but those who support beliefs other than mine quote anything, from any time period, which supports their beliefs, without question. I submit that the 2 Jewish encyclopedias and Talmud I have quoted are at least as accurate as any encyclopedia in any library you care to name or better.
I have never quantified the Jewish belief in hell. I have said that it was significant enough that it is mentioned in the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, 1971 Encyclopedia Judaica and the 3d-5th century Talmud. Can you suggest some other sources which you consider more accurate?
To reiterate. Jesus and His disciples were born into and grew up in the 1st century culture. Jesus would have attended temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/- He would have been aware of the teachings. If there was anything wrong Jesus most likely would have confronted the Jewish leaders on it as He did on several occasions, for other things. But He didn't. I must conclude Jesus found nothing wrong with the Jewish teaching on hell.

JulieB67 · Jan 11, 2022

Der Alte said:
I believe all the verses I posted

You obviously don't believe this verse you posted.

12) Proverbs 24:20 for the evildoer has no future hope and the lamp or the wicked will be snuffed out.

Yes, you believe the evildoer has no future hope but do you believe the second part of this verse? That the wicked will be "snuffed out"?

keiw · Jan 11, 2022

PuerAzaelis said:
For a good number of Christians, hell isn’t just a tragic shadow cast across one of an otherwise ravishing vista’s remoter corners; rather, it’s one of the landscape’s most conspicuous and delectable details.

I know whereof I speak. I’ve published many books, often willfully provocative, and have vexed my share of critics. But only recently, in releasing a book challenging the historical validity, biblical origins, philosophical cogency and moral sanity of the standard Christian teaching on the matter of eternal damnation, have I ever inspired reactions so truculent, uninhibited and (frankly) demented.

Opinion | Why Do People Believe in Hell? (Published 2020)

What do we think about this?

The true God of the bible = Love, justice, wisdom, power, mercy--- i never saw sadism listed.
It would take a sadist to create a literal eternal place ofsuffering. Thus it was symbolism taught on that subject. Here is proof.
Lets apply Gods justice scales to that teaching--Does any know what true justice is. It entails balance, uncorryptable.

70-100 years of unrepented life of sin on one side--- Trillions x trillions x trillions etc of never ending years of suffering on the other side. 0 balance, 0 love, 0 mercy, 0 wisdom on those scales. just power mad sadism. Thus not the reality of the God of the bible.

The symbolism= As each new day dawns in Gods kingdom, those not allowed entrance miss each new day, miss out on Gods love each new day, it never ends. Likened to be an eternal suffering. They have traded 70-100 years of a life of unrepented sin and miss-trillions x trillions x trillions, etc of never ending years of life-never sick, never without, loved ones ressurected, no war, no hatred, etc, etc. Not a very good choice.

The teachers that do not know God or his son teach a literal eternal suffering-RUN FROM THEM.

David Bentley Hart on Hell

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