What is "The Great tribulation"?

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

New Testament mentions of persecution and tribulation​

Persecution:

Of Jesus: John 5:16

Of Christians:- Matthew 5: 19 & 12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1: 13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11.

Of the woman who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13.

Of the world at the hand of Christians: 0.00

Tribulation:

Of apostles or Christians:- Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9, 21 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:19 & 24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3; 1 Thessalonians 3: 4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14;

Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9

Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6

Great Tribulation:

Only three times does the New Testament use the Greek word megas (great) to describe the intensity of the tribulation (thlipsis):-

As the experience of Christians:- Revelation 2:22 (Greek words megas thlipsis); Revelation 7:14 (Greek words megas thlipsis).

Some say of Christians in the following verse, some say of Jews in A.D 70: Matthew 24:21 (Greek words megas thlipsis, see also Matthew 24:9, & Matthew 24:29).

Judgment and wrath vs tribulation in the Bible​

1. Wrath: God's wrath has come upon a nation or nations at various times.
2. Judgment: God's judgment has come upon a nation or nations at various times.
3. Final Judgment. There are only two final judgments mentioned in the Bible.
4. Tribulation: A word which describes the experience of humans. The word is not necessarily linked to God's judgment.
5. Intense (great) tribulation.

WRATH
God's wrath has been poured out upon people and nations over the course of human history, but it has not necessarily been poured out upon the whole world in each case (for example: Exodus 15:3-7).

JUDGMENT
God's wrath being poured out upon a people is always a judgement, since it is always produced by God’s burning anger (thymós in the Greek; chârôn in the Hebrew), but it’s not always a final judgement:

A final judgement came upon Babylon (Jeremiah 50:13) when the wrath of God came upon the city, but a final judgement did not come upon Jerusalem when the wrath of God came upon the city (at the time Jerusalem was destroyed by the armies of Babylon).

FINAL JUDGMENT
The first time in the Bible that we read about humanity being finally judged is in the account of the flood in Genesis, when only the elect (Noah and his family) were saved.

The last time we read about humanity being finally judged is in the Revelation, where we read about fire coming down from heaven and destroying the armies of the rebellious nations who had surrounded the camp of the saints (Revelation 20:9).

TRIBULATION
(i) Tribulation is merely a word which describes the experience of humans, whether they be Jews or Gentiles, believers or unbelievers; and God’s elect people have experienced periods of tribulation more than once.

(ii) A period of tribulation being experienced by any people may or may not be what they are experiencing as a result of God's wrath, (for example, the tribulation that Christians experienced under the hand of Nero was not as a result of God's wrath coming upon them, nor was the tribulation Israel experienced under the hand of Pharaoh in Egypt),

but the plagues were being experienced by the Egyptians as a result of God's judgment, in much the same way as the seven last plagues will be experienced by those "who had the mark of the beast, and on those who worshiped his image" (Revelation 16:2).

Luke 21:23 describes Jesus’ prophecy regarding the tribulation that was to come upon the people of Jerusalem, and mentions this period of tribulation as coming about as a result of God’s wrath:

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress (ἀνάγκη anánkē) in the land and wrath (ὀργή orgḗ) on this people."

SAVED FROM WRATH
​

The beast of Revelation 13 will make war against the saints and overcome them (Revelation 13:7)

1 Thessalonians 5
9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 5
8 But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Luke 21 (talking about the wrath of God to come)
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts are weighed down with headaches and drinking and anxieties of this life; and that day should suddenly come on you;
35 for it shall come as a snare on all those sitting on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch therefore, praying in every season that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things which shall occur, and to stand before the Son of man.

The Greek word tēréō means to guard (from loss or injury), by keeping the eye upon:​

John 17
6 I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave to Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have kept (tēréō) Your word.

11 And now I am in the world no longer, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep (tēréō) them in Your name, those whom You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept (tēréō) them in Your name. Those that You have given Me I have kept (tēréō), and none of them is lost, except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world that they might have My joy fulfilled in them.
14 I have given them Your Word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I do not pray for You to take them out of the world, but for You to keep (tēréō) them from the evil.

There is not one verse in the New Testament where tēréō does not mean to observe, to guard, to keep. Not one.

Revelation 3
10 Because you have kept (tēréō) the word of My patience, I also will keep (tēréō) you from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.

In Revelation 3:10, Jesus is telling the faithful in His church that He will guard them, keep them, keep His eye upon them during the hour of trial. He is not saying that He will take them out of the world before the hour of trial has even come.

Hour of trial:

Revelation 17
12 And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast.

16 and the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked. And they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

Revelation 18
10 standing afar off for fear of her torment, saying, Woe! Woe to the great city, Babylon, that strong city! For in one hour your judgment came.

New Jerusalem is a city of gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 21:18-21).
The Harlot is decked with gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 17:4). She acts like she's very holy, and claims to be on fire for Christ, "filled with the Spirit".

When Revelation 17:16 comes upon the harlot, it comes upon the entire church. Every time God purged Israel in the past of its "dross" or its tares, the faithful suffered too (such as when Babylon destroyed Jerusalem and all went into captivity);

and Jesus has (i) rebuked and warned the harlot about this in Revelation 2:20-23; and (2) counseled the lukewarm in Revelation 3:18; and (3) commended the faithful in Revelation 2:8-11 and Revelation 3:7-13; and (4) exhorted all Christians in His closing statement to each one of the seven churches.

We see the immediate aftermath of it all in Revelation 7:13-17; and read about it erupting in Revelation 13:7; Revelation 13:15; and Revelation 17:16.

The New Testament, like the entire Bible, makes a clear distinction between wrath and tribulation.

"PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE"​

Huh? Isn't this conflating tribulation with wrath? What is "The Great Tribulation"?

Click to expand...

Maria Billingsley said:

From my studies there is no " the great tribulation" only "great tribulation".
Jesus Christ of Nazareth warned His Body from the beginning. In other words, they would suffer a great amount of tribulation for His namesake.

Click to expand...

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

New Testament mentions of persecution and tribulation​

Persecution:

Of Jesus: John 5:16

Of Christians:- Matthew 5: 19 & 12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1: 13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11.

Of the woman who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13.

Of the world at the hand of Christians: 0.00

Tribulation:

Of apostles or Christians:- Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9, 21 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:19 & 24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3; 1 Thessalonians 3: 4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14;

Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9

Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6

Great Tribulation:

Only three times does the New Testament use the Greek word megas (great) to describe the intensity of the tribulation (thlipsis):-

As the experience of Christians:- Revelation 2:22 (Greek words megas thlipsis); Revelation 7:14 (Greek words megas thlipsis).

Some say of Christians in the following verse, some say of Jews in A.D 70: Matthew 24:21 (Greek words megas thlipsis, see also Matthew 24:9, & Matthew 24:29).

Judgment and wrath vs tribulation in the Bible​

1. Wrath: God's wrath has come upon a nation or nations at various times.
2. Judgment: God's judgment has come upon a nation or nations at various times.
3. Final Judgment. There are only two final judgments mentioned in the Bible.
4. Tribulation: A word which describes the experience of humans. The word is not necessarily linked to God's judgment.
5. Intense (great) tribulation.

WRATH
God's wrath has been poured out upon people and nations over the course of human history, but it has not necessarily been poured out upon the whole world in each case (for example: Exodus 15:3-7).

JUDGMENT
God's wrath being poured out upon a people is always a judgement, since it is always produced by God’s burning anger (thymós in the Greek; chârôn in the Hebrew), but it’s not always a final judgement:

A final judgement came upon Babylon (Jeremiah 50:13) when the wrath of God came upon the city, but a final judgement did not come upon Jerusalem when the wrath of God came upon the city (at the time Jerusalem was destroyed by the armies of Babylon).

FINAL JUDGMENT
The first time in the Bible that we read about humanity being finally judged is in the account of the flood in Genesis, when only the elect (Noah and his family) were saved.

The last time we read about humanity being finally judged is in the Revelation, where we read about fire coming down from heaven and destroying the armies of the rebellious nations who had surrounded the camp of the saints (Revelation 20:9).

TRIBULATION
(i) Tribulation is merely a word which describes the experience of humans, whether they be Jews or Gentiles, believers or unbelievers; and God’s elect people have experienced periods of tribulation more than once.

(ii) A period of tribulation being experienced by any people may or may not be what they are experiencing as a result of God's wrath, (for example, the tribulation that Christians experienced under the hand of Nero was not as a result of God's wrath coming upon them, nor was the tribulation Israel experienced under the hand of Pharaoh in Egypt),

but the plagues were being experienced by the Egyptians as a result of God's judgment, in much the same way as the seven last plagues will be experienced by those "who had the mark of the beast, and on those who worshiped his image" (Revelation 16:2).

Luke 21:23 describes Jesus’ prophecy regarding the tribulation that was to come upon the people of Jerusalem, and mentions this period of tribulation as coming about as a result of God’s wrath:

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress (ἀνάγκη anánkē) in the land and wrath (ὀργή orgḗ) on this people."

SAVED FROM WRATH
​

The beast of Revelation 13 will make war against the saints and overcome them (Revelation 13:7)

1 Thessalonians 5
9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 5
8 But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Luke 21 (talking about the wrath of God to come)
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts are weighed down with headaches and drinking and anxieties of this life; and that day should suddenly come on you;
35 for it shall come as a snare on all those sitting on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch therefore, praying in every season that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things which shall occur, and to stand before the Son of man.

The Greek word tēréō means to guard (from loss or injury), by keeping the eye upon:​

John 17
6 I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave to Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have kept (tēréō) Your word.

11 And now I am in the world no longer, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep (tēréō) them in Your name, those whom You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept (tēréō) them in Your name. Those that You have given Me I have kept (tēréō), and none of them is lost, except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world that they might have My joy fulfilled in them.
14 I have given them Your Word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I do not pray for You to take them out of the world, but for You to keep (tēréō) them from the evil.

There is not one verse in the New Testament where tēréō does not mean to observe, to guard, to keep. Not one.

Revelation 3
10 Because you have kept (tēréō) the word of My patience, I also will keep (tēréō) you from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.

In Revelation 3:10, Jesus is telling the faithful in His church that He will guard them, keep them, keep His eye upon them during the hour of trial. He is not saying that He will take them out of the world before the hour of trial has even come.

Hour of trial:

Revelation 17
12 And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast.

16 and the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked. And they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

Revelation 18
10 standing afar off for fear of her torment, saying, Woe! Woe to the great city, Babylon, that strong city! For in one hour your judgment came.

New Jerusalem is a city of gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 21:18-21).
The Harlot is decked with gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 17:4). She acts like she's very holy, and claims to be on fire for Christ, "filled with the Spirit".

When Revelation 17:16 comes upon the harlot, it comes upon the entire church. Every time God purged Israel in the past of its "dross" or its tares, the faithful suffered too (such as when Babylon destroyed Jerusalem and all went into captivity);

and Jesus has (i) rebuked and warned the harlot about this in Revelation 2:20-23; and (2) counseled the lukewarm in Revelation 3:18; and (3) commended the faithful in Revelation 2:8-11 and Revelation 3:7-13; and (4) exhorted all Christians in His closing statement to each one of the seven churches.

We see the immediate aftermath of it all in Revelation 7:13-17; and read about it erupting in Revelation 13:7; Revelation 13:15; and Revelation 17:16.

The New Testament, like the entire Bible, makes a clear distinction between wrath and tribulation.

"PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE"​

Huh? Isn't this conflating tribulation with wrath? What is "The Great Tribulation"?

Click to expand...

Spiritual Jew said:

In terms of great tribulation for Christians, I agree with what Maria already posted in that great tribulation has been ongoing for Christians from the beginning.

But, I believe the term "great tribulation" is also used to describe God's wrath for unbelieving Jews. I believe that is what the parallel passages of Matthew 24:15-22/Mark 13:14-20/Luke 21:20-24 are about (God's wrath against unbelieving Jews in 70 AD).

Click to expand...

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

10 Because you have kept (tēréō) the word of My patience, I also will keep (tēréō) you from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.

Click to expand...

jgr said:

True.

And the tribulation of AD70 was a great tribulation unparalleled before or since, as Jesus foretold, and history confirms. (Matthew 24:21).

Click to expand...

Timtofly said:

Was it the final harvest?

Click to expand...

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

New Testament mentions of persecution and tribulation​

Persecution:

Of Jesus: John 5:16

Of Christians:- Matthew 5: 19 & 12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1: 13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11.

Of the woman who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13.

Of the world at the hand of Christians: 0.00

Tribulation:

Of apostles or Christians:- Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9, 21 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:19 & 24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3; 1 Thessalonians 3: 4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14;

Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9

Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6

Great Tribulation:

Only three times does the New Testament use the Greek word megas (great) to describe the intensity of the tribulation (thlipsis):-

As the experience of Christians:- Revelation 2:22 (Greek words megas thlipsis); Revelation 7:14 (Greek words megas thlipsis).

Some say of Christians in the following verse, some say of Jews in A.D 70: Matthew 24:21 (Greek words megas thlipsis, see also Matthew 24:9, & Matthew 24:29).

Judgment and wrath vs tribulation in the Bible​

1. Wrath: God's wrath has come upon a nation or nations at various times.
2. Judgment: God's judgment has come upon a nation or nations at various times.
3. Final Judgment. There are only two final judgments mentioned in the Bible.
4. Tribulation: A word which describes the experience of humans. The word is not necessarily linked to God's judgment.
5. Intense (great) tribulation.

WRATH
God's wrath has been poured out upon people and nations over the course of human history, but it has not necessarily been poured out upon the whole world in each case (for example: Exodus 15:3-7).

JUDGMENT
God's wrath being poured out upon a people is always a judgement, since it is always produced by God’s burning anger (thymós in the Greek; chârôn in the Hebrew), but it’s not always a final judgement:

A final judgement came upon Babylon (Jeremiah 50:13) when the wrath of God came upon the city, but a final judgement did not come upon Jerusalem when the wrath of God came upon the city (at the time Jerusalem was destroyed by the armies of Babylon).

FINAL JUDGMENT
The first time in the Bible that we read about humanity being finally judged is in the account of the flood in Genesis, when only the elect (Noah and his family) were saved.

The last time we read about humanity being finally judged is in the Revelation, where we read about fire coming down from heaven and destroying the armies of the rebellious nations who had surrounded the camp of the saints (Revelation 20:9).

TRIBULATION
(i) Tribulation is merely a word which describes the experience of humans, whether they be Jews or Gentiles, believers or unbelievers; and God’s elect people have experienced periods of tribulation more than once.

(ii) A period of tribulation being experienced by any people may or may not be what they are experiencing as a result of God's wrath, (for example, the tribulation that Christians experienced under the hand of Nero was not as a result of God's wrath coming upon them, nor was the tribulation Israel experienced under the hand of Pharaoh in Egypt),

but the plagues were being experienced by the Egyptians as a result of God's judgment, in much the same way as the seven last plagues will be experienced by those "who had the mark of the beast, and on those who worshiped his image" (Revelation 16:2).

Luke 21:23 describes Jesus’ prophecy regarding the tribulation that was to come upon the people of Jerusalem, and mentions this period of tribulation as coming about as a result of God’s wrath:

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress (ἀνάγκη anánkē) in the land and wrath (ὀργή orgḗ) on this people."

SAVED FROM WRATH
​

The beast of Revelation 13 will make war against the saints and overcome them (Revelation 13:7)

1 Thessalonians 5
9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 5
8 But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Luke 21 (talking about the wrath of God to come)
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts are weighed down with headaches and drinking and anxieties of this life; and that day should suddenly come on you;
35 for it shall come as a snare on all those sitting on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch therefore, praying in every season that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things which shall occur, and to stand before the Son of man.

The Greek word tēréō means to guard (from loss or injury), by keeping the eye upon:​

John 17
6 I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave to Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have kept (tēréō) Your word.

11 And now I am in the world no longer, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep (tēréō) them in Your name, those whom You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept (tēréō) them in Your name. Those that You have given Me I have kept (tēréō), and none of them is lost, except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world that they might have My joy fulfilled in them.
14 I have given them Your Word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I do not pray for You to take them out of the world, but for You to keep (tēréō) them from the evil.

There is not one verse in the New Testament where tēréō does not mean to observe, to guard, to keep. Not one.

Revelation 3
10 Because you have kept (tēréō) the word of My patience, I also will keep (tēréō) you from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.

In Revelation 3:10, Jesus is telling the faithful in His church that He will guard them, keep them, keep His eye upon them during the hour of trial. He is not saying that He will take them out of the world before the hour of trial has even come.

Hour of trial:

Revelation 17
12 And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast.

16 and the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked. And they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

Revelation 18
10 standing afar off for fear of her torment, saying, Woe! Woe to the great city, Babylon, that strong city! For in one hour your judgment came.

New Jerusalem is a city of gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 21:18-21).
The Harlot is decked with gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 17:4). She acts like she's very holy, and claims to be on fire for Christ, "filled with the Spirit".

When Revelation 17:16 comes upon the harlot, it comes upon the entire church. Every time God purged Israel in the past of its "dross" or its tares, the faithful suffered too (such as when Babylon destroyed Jerusalem and all went into captivity);

and Jesus has (i) rebuked and warned the harlot about this in Revelation 2:20-23; and (2) counseled the lukewarm in Revelation 3:18; and (3) commended the faithful in Revelation 2:8-11 and Revelation 3:7-13; and (4) exhorted all Christians in His closing statement to each one of the seven churches.

We see the immediate aftermath of it all in Revelation 7:13-17; and read about it erupting in Revelation 13:7; Revelation 13:15; and Revelation 17:16.

The New Testament, like the entire Bible, makes a clear distinction between wrath and tribulation.

"PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE"​

Huh? Isn't this conflating tribulation with wrath? What is "The Great Tribulation"?

Click to expand...

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

That's an interesting observation, and I partly agree, but I see various great tribulations in intensity taking place at various times throughout history, the one mentioned in Matthew 24:21 being the the most intense of them all.

Click to expand...

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

What Jesus says to one, He says to all. You

Do you really, truly believe the Lord's Revelation was only for the seven churches He was addressing?

Click to expand...

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

It would have applied to whatever tribulation took place under Nero. It applies to us all, right up until the end of the Age.

Click to expand...

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

. and (would you add), "never to be fulfilled again?"

Click to expand...

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

New Testament mentions of persecution and tribulation​

Persecution:

Of Jesus: John 5:16

Of Christians:- Matthew 5: 19 & 12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1: 13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11.

Of the woman who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13.

Of the world at the hand of Christians: 0.00

Tribulation:

Of apostles or Christians:- Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9, 21 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:19 & 24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3; 1 Thessalonians 3: 4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14;

Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9

Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6

Great Tribulation:

Only three times does the New Testament use the Greek word megas (great) to describe the intensity of the tribulation (thlipsis):-

As the experience of Christians:- Revelation 2:22 (Greek words megas thlipsis); Revelation 7:14 (Greek words megas thlipsis).

Some say of Christians in the following verse, some say of Jews in A.D 70: Matthew 24:21 (Greek words megas thlipsis, see also Matthew 24:9, & Matthew 24:29).

Judgment and wrath vs tribulation in the Bible​

1. Wrath: God's wrath has come upon a nation or nations at various times.
2. Judgment: God's judgment has come upon a nation or nations at various times.
3. Final Judgment. There are only two final judgments mentioned in the Bible.
4. Tribulation: A word which describes the experience of humans. The word is not necessarily linked to God's judgment.
5. Intense (great) tribulation.

WRATH
God's wrath has been poured out upon people and nations over the course of human history, but it has not necessarily been poured out upon the whole world in each case (for example: Exodus 15:3-7).

JUDGMENT
God's wrath being poured out upon a people is always a judgement, since it is always produced by God’s burning anger (thymós in the Greek; chârôn in the Hebrew), but it’s not always a final judgement:

A final judgement came upon Babylon (Jeremiah 50:13) when the wrath of God came upon the city, but a final judgement did not come upon Jerusalem when the wrath of God came upon the city (at the time Jerusalem was destroyed by the armies of Babylon).

FINAL JUDGMENT
The first time in the Bible that we read about humanity being finally judged is in the account of the flood in Genesis, when only the elect (Noah and his family) were saved.

The last time we read about humanity being finally judged is in the Revelation, where we read about fire coming down from heaven and destroying the armies of the rebellious nations who had surrounded the camp of the saints (Revelation 20:9).

TRIBULATION
(i) Tribulation is merely a word which describes the experience of humans, whether they be Jews or Gentiles, believers or unbelievers; and God’s elect people have experienced periods of tribulation more than once.

(ii) A period of tribulation being experienced by any people may or may not be what they are experiencing as a result of God's wrath, (for example, the tribulation that Christians experienced under the hand of Nero was not as a result of God's wrath coming upon them, nor was the tribulation Israel experienced under the hand of Pharaoh in Egypt),

but the plagues were being experienced by the Egyptians as a result of God's judgment, in much the same way as the seven last plagues will be experienced by those "who had the mark of the beast, and on those who worshiped his image" (Revelation 16:2).

Luke 21:23 describes Jesus’ prophecy regarding the tribulation that was to come upon the people of Jerusalem, and mentions this period of tribulation as coming about as a result of God’s wrath:

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress (ἀνάγκη anánkē) in the land and wrath (ὀργή orgḗ) on this people."

SAVED FROM WRATH
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The beast of Revelation 13 will make war against the saints and overcome them (Revelation 13:7)

1 Thessalonians 5
9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 5
8 But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Luke 21 (talking about the wrath of God to come)
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts are weighed down with headaches and drinking and anxieties of this life; and that day should suddenly come on you;
35 for it shall come as a snare on all those sitting on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch therefore, praying in every season that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things which shall occur, and to stand before the Son of man.

The Greek word tēréō means to guard (from loss or injury), by keeping the eye upon:​

John 17
6 I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave to Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have kept (tēréō) Your word.

11 And now I am in the world no longer, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep (tēréō) them in Your name, those whom You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept (tēréō) them in Your name. Those that You have given Me I have kept (tēréō), and none of them is lost, except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world that they might have My joy fulfilled in them.
14 I have given them Your Word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I do not pray for You to take them out of the world, but for You to keep (tēréō) them from the evil.

There is not one verse in the New Testament where tēréō does not mean to observe, to guard, to keep. Not one.

Revelation 3
10 Because you have kept (tēréō) the word of My patience, I also will keep (tēréō) you from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.

In Revelation 3:10, Jesus is telling the faithful in His church that He will guard them, keep them, keep His eye upon them during the hour of trial. He is not saying that He will take them out of the world before the hour of trial has even come.

Hour of trial:

Revelation 17
12 And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast.

16 and the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked. And they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

Revelation 18
10 standing afar off for fear of her torment, saying, Woe! Woe to the great city, Babylon, that strong city! For in one hour your judgment came.

New Jerusalem is a city of gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 21:18-21).
The Harlot is decked with gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 17:4). She acts like she's very holy, and claims to be on fire for Christ, "filled with the Spirit".

When Revelation 17:16 comes upon the harlot, it comes upon the entire church. Every time God purged Israel in the past of its "dross" or its tares, the faithful suffered too (such as when Babylon destroyed Jerusalem and all went into captivity);

and Jesus has (i) rebuked and warned the harlot about this in Revelation 2:20-23; and (2) counseled the lukewarm in Revelation 3:18; and (3) commended the faithful in Revelation 2:8-11 and Revelation 3:7-13; and (4) exhorted all Christians in His closing statement to each one of the seven churches.

We see the immediate aftermath of it all in Revelation 7:13-17; and read about it erupting in Revelation 13:7; Revelation 13:15; and Revelation 17:16.

The New Testament, like the entire Bible, makes a clear distinction between wrath and tribulation.

"PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE"​

Huh? Isn't this conflating tribulation with wrath? What is "The Great Tribulation"?

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Fullness of the Gentiles said:

I also agree with that. Anyone who says that the Christians who suffered under Nero (for an example) were not going through great tribulation is willfully ignorant of the facts.

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Yes, the word "tribulation" refers to the experience of humans, whether they be Jews or Gentiles, believers or unbelievers.

@Spiritual Jew Sometimes they will be suffering tribulation as a result of God's anger, God's wrath (as the Jews did when Babylon destroyed Jerusalem), but not always is it the result of God's wrath coming upon them (the Christians under Nero). So the Jews in A.D 70 also went through great tribulation.

But this is exactly why it makes it so difficult for me to put dates to Matthew 24:9-31 (the entire passage) and it's corresponding passage in Mark 13:5-27 (because Mark's account is saying exactly the same thing as Matthew's account).

My understanding has placed Luke 21:20-23 most definitely in A.D 70

But Luke 21:24, when compared with these verses: Luke 21:25-28; Revelation 11:2; and Revelation 13:8-10, @Spiritual Jew and Matthew 24:29-31,

has put me in a permanent state of considering that what took place in A.D 70, was

(a) prophesied by the Lord; and
(b) is written about in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21; and
( c ) was fulfilled in A.D 70; but also
(d) has become a biblical type or forerunner of what is to come:

Matthew 24:3 records the disciples asking Jesus what in effect are two questions:

1. "Tell us, when shall these tings (i.e the destruction of this temple we are all talking about here) be?
2. "What shall be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the aiṓn (Age)?"

My human intellect has me thinking, "the end of the Age" can:

i. Either refer to both the end of the previous Age (let's call it "The Age of the kingdom of Judea"), and the end of the church Age, during which the gospel and the Kingdom of Christ is being preached in all the world as a witness to all nations; or
ii. Only to the end of the Age of the kingdom of Judea; or
iii. Only to the end of the church Age.

So all of the above (together with Matthew 24:9 & Matthew 24:29-31) has me considering the possibility that the prophecy refers to both periods in time, but I can only see as clearly as my dim eyes permit me to see it.

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