David Bentley Hart on Hell

Some may consider the following article unrelated to the thread. But I think it shows the reality that there are very evil people in the world:

Nigeria's president condemns killings in Zamfara state | DW | 08.01.2022

Andrewn said:

Some may consider the following article unrelated to the thread. But I think it shows the reality that there are very evil people in the world:

Nigeria's president condemns killings in Zamfara state | DW | 08.01.2022

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I think the best source for seeing evil people is in our bathroom mirror at home.

To look at that person and realize you are only a few steps away from major atrocities. Sobering thought. IMHO

How could we make the audacious claim that we are not like those "evil" people? That we are somehow above them, superior to them.

War turns otherwise peaceful humans into monsters.

Saint Steven said:

I think the best source for seeing evil people is in our bathroom mirror at home.

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When I first read that I though you must have seen in the mirror a burglar climbing in through the bathroom window but I see what you mean! I agree.

Hmm said:

Edited. Just did a quick search. According to
How to Become Orthodox

"The Orthodox Church has no formal catechism, a single body of work that details the specifics of its faith. This is one difference between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church, who does have a specific catechism."

This fits in with what DBH says, that the EO church remains silent on the matter of universalism.

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One who wishes to join the Orthodox Church is a catechumen. The process of instruction originally took about three years but now takes six months to a year. The Orthodox Church is not a "believe whatever you want to believe" church by any means.

From the Longer Catechism of the Eastern Orthodox Church, also known as the Catechism of St. Philaret (Drozdov) of Moscow, The Longer Catechism of The Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church • Pravoslavieto.com


From the Catechism of the Eastern Orthodox Church, 17.pdf (tsu.ge):

Again I say:

1. Debating with universalists is nothing more than theological Whack-a-Mole. The moles just keep coming. You can never win.
   
   
2. Debating with universalists just leads farther and farther into the weeds and gives their arguments an appearance of seriousness they don't deserve.
   
   
3. David Bentley Hart is a fringe figure within Christianity, let alone Orthodoxy. This is how deep universalists must dig for their theological heroes.
   
   "I have long been aware of the fact that David Bentley Hart's theology was far from Orthodox, but I have become convinced -- after reading more of his writings and listening to him speak -- that his theology cannot even be categorized as properly Christian. Especially after his recent assertion that the God of the Old Testament was mostly evil and began as a Canaanite storm-god."
   
   David Bentley Hart and Marcionism / OrthoChristian.Com

Hmm said:

When I first read that I though you must have seen in the mirror a burglar climbing in through the bathroom window but I see what you mean! I agree.

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Yes, even as Christians we get caught up in the ways of the world. "... the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life..."

Or as The Living Bible paraphrase puts it, "... the craze for sex, the ambition to buy everything that appeals to you, and the pride that comes from wealth and importance..." (ouch) If the shoe fits... (repent)

1 John 2:15-16 NIV
Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world.

Saint Steven said:

I think the best source for seeing evil people is in our bathroom mirror at home.

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There is a clear Calvinist tendency in this statement. According to this theology we are all garbage and our works are like filthy rags. But compare your statement to the following definition:

"JUSTIFICATION is a word used in the Scriptures to mean that in Christ we are forgiven and actually made righteous in our living. Justification is not a once-for-all, instantaneous pronouncement guaranteeing eternal salvation, regardless of how wickedly a person might live from that point on. Neither is it merely a legal declaration that an unrighteous person is righteous. Rather, justification is a living, dynamic, day-to-day reality for the one who follows Christ. The Christian actively pursues a righteous life in the grace and power of God granted to all who continue to believe in Him."

Orthodox Catechism

Der Alte said:

I definitely believe that Hebrew "olam" and Greek "aionios" mean "eternal.""everlasting,""for ever."

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Dorothy Mae said:

I agree with that statement.

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Before you agree or disagree, you need to realize that "olam" and "aionios" are no way equivalent to each other. The former is a noun and the latter is an adjective!!

Andrewn said:

There is a clear Calvinist tendency in this statement. According to this theology we are all garbage and our works are like filthy rags. But compare your statement to the following definition:

"JUSTIFICATION is a word used in the Scriptures to mean that in Christ we are forgiven and actually made righteous in our living. Justification is not a once-for-all, instantaneous pronouncement guaranteeing eternal salvation, regardless of how wickedly a person might live from that point on. Neither is it merely a legal declaration that an unrighteous person is righteous. Rather, justification is a living, dynamic, day-to-day reality for the one who follows Christ. The Christian actively pursues a righteous life in the grace and power of God granted to all who continue to believe in Him."

Orthodox Catechism

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While I agree that this reality exists, it's not so clear that Paul uses the term justification for it. A lot of disagreement between Protestant and Catholic / Orthodox theology is because the Catholic tradition used justification for the whole of the Christian life, while the Protestant tradition uses it for one part.

In my view, justification is God's acceptance of us as one of his people. This continues despite any problems, whether sin or discouragement. He deals with us, not as enemies, but as wayward followers. Indeed when we sin is when it matters most that God still treats us as his.

In Calvinist terminology the whole business of coming into conformity with Christ is called sanctification. The process of salvation thus includes both justification and sanctification. Your quotation is describing what we would call sanctification.

I think there are limits to the traditional Protestant description of justification as forensic. At times the implication is that it's a legal fiction. But for Paul, we are justified by faith. It's pretty clear that for Paul, faith unites us with Christ, and is the basis for life in Christ. Justification, i.e. being accepted by God as one of his people, does change us, at least for Paul, because for him justification is by faith, and faith unites us with Christ, through the Holy Spirit. The presence of the Spirit changes us.

However I think it still makes sense to distinguish justification from the whole Christian life, because it makes clear that fact that the Spirit's presence with us is a constant, that is the basis on which our Christian life is built, and that his presence continues even when we fail.

Paul's concept of justification does not require us to commit to the idea that we are garbage, and incapable of doing anything good. I agree that this is a problem. Nor does it require us to commit to Calvin's understanding that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us.

When Paul said we are justified by faith, I believe what he meant is that faith unites us to Christ and it's Christ's presence with us that makes us one of God's people. Calvin, with some basis in the Western tradition, believed that God requires perfection. In fact the Bible refers to a number of people as "righteous." It didn't mean that they were morally perfect, but that they were followers of God, and repented when they sinned. But it appears to me that Calvin couldn't conceive of someone being considered righteous unless they were morally perfect. Since we obviously aren't, when Paul said that faith is imputed to us as righteousness, he understood it to mean that in faith God imputes Christ's righteousness to us. I think it means that those who have faith are recognized by God as his, since righteousness for Paul really means in good standing with God, not morally perfect.

But the idea that we are garbage is not necessary in order to understand Paul's basic concept of justification by faith, and the distinction between justification and the whole of the Christian life.

Andrewn said:

Before you agree or disagree, you need to realize that "olam" and "aionios" are no way equivalent to each other. The former is a noun and the latter is an adjective!!

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Right. Olam seems to mean something like "age." In this context the critical age is the age to come, which can reasonably be called eternity. "aionios" would mean "of the age to come", and might often be translated eternal. The dispute is whether it always refers to something that lasts forever, or whether things can happen in eternity that have an end. It's also clear that, whatever its etymology, aionios is also used for things of God that aren't literally eternal, such as the LXX of the temple's everlasting doors.

Since Jewish tradition saw Gehenna as eternal, but many people got out of it, there's some basis to claim that aionios punishment might mean something like punishment in the age to come, but not necessarily punishment that lasts forever. But this isn't a slam-dunk. You've got to look at Matthew's descriptions of the afterlife as a whole. Punishment that goes on forever appears to have a been a thing in contemporary Jewish thought, even though it was thought to apply only to a limited number of people. I find it conceivable that Matthew actually meant that, though eventual annihilation is another possibility.

(Note that I think Matthew exaggerated the theme of judgement somewhat. There's other evidence for this. So I don't necessarily accept Matthew's interpretation as definitive. I find it plausible that Matthew accepts ECT while Paul and the other Gospels don't.)

Andrewn said:

There is a clear Calvinist tendency in this statement. According to this theology we are all garbage and our works are like filthy rags. But compare your statement to the following definition:

"JUSTIFICATION is a word used in the Scriptures to mean that in Christ we are forgiven and actually made righteous in our living. Justification is not a once-for-all, instantaneous pronouncement guaranteeing eternal salvation, regardless of how wickedly a person might live from that point on. Neither is it merely a legal declaration that an unrighteous person is righteous. Rather, justification is a living, dynamic, day-to-day reality for the one who follows Christ. The Christian actively pursues a righteous life in the grace and power of God granted to all who continue to believe in Him."

Orthodox Catechism

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That's good, thanks.

It seems that we need to find some balance between the Calvinism and the Pharisee in the scripture below.

Luke 18:10-13 NIV
“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

Andrewn said:

Many times in your messages, you state that leaders of the EO church can understand the NT better than anyone else.

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I didn't say "that leaders of the EO church can understand the NT better than anyone else." I said "Who better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T."

here is a quotation from the Orthodox Catechism showing what they believe about Christ's Harrowing the Hell:
However, both the New Testament and Orthodox patristic tradition suggest that all people will appear [in the Last Judgment] with some experience of an encounter with Christ and His message, including those who did not meet Him in their earthly life.

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So far so good.

In particular, St Peter speaks of Christ’s descent into Hell and His preaching there to those sinners who were drowned in the waters of the Flood: ‘For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you... through the resurrection of Jesus Christ...’ (1 Pet.3:18-21)"

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Even this quote says only a few, 8 persons were saved. What about the millions who drowned? Were they saved" The last line, "eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you." could only mean those living and hearing/reading Paul.

Remember, these are not my words but a direct quotation from the Orthodox Catechism. Do you believe their interpretation or stick with the Baptist's interpretation?
An Online Orthodox Catechism » Catechism » OrthodoxEurope.org
I assume by "hell" you mean Hades / Sheol. Is it your belief that Hades / Sheol contains dead corpses? Is this what the Lord teaches in Rich and Lazarus and in many other places?

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Interesting you should mention the rich man and Lazarus. It does not appear to teach UR.
The document of my denomination which corresponds to the Orthodox Catechism does not mention 1 Peter 3:18-21.
Whether corpses or some kind of conscious existence the dead cannot work or hope.

Andrewn said:

Before you agree or disagree, you need to realize that "olam" and "aionios" are no way equivalent to each other. The former is a noun and the latter is an adjective!!

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@hedrick Perhaps. JPS= 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation of the OT.
Online Bible

Der Alte said:

@hedrick Perhaps. JPS= 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation of the OT.
Online Bible

JPS Genesis 3:22
22 And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.'[עולם]​

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Yup. The same word can have multiple uses. I don't have a good Hebrew reference, so I'm depending upon TDNT. They document both a sense in which it is the eternity of God, and the sense relevant to the NT: two ages, current and the future age. That's for the noun (both Hebrew and Greek).

The adjective aionios they give 4 senses. The relevant one is "the object of eschatological expectation". They think eternal punishment might have the sense of divine eternity, but note that the term extends beyond purely temporal.

As I said above, I think in principle it could mean eschatological punishment, without necessarily going on forever, but my reading of Matthew is that he probably does mean ECT.

hedrick said:

(Note that I think Matthew exaggerated the theme of judgement somewhat. There's other evidence for this. So I don't necessarily accept Matthew's interpretation as definitive. I find it plausible that Matthew accepts ECT while Paul and the other Gospels don't.)

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Here's a great example of OT literary exaggeration that might inform the NT literature style as well.

Edom
Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.

The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit today with a bypass to get around it. Compare verse ten below. (Revelation 14:11)

Isaiah 34:8-11
For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it;
the great owl and the raven will nest there.
God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.

Saint Steven said:

Here's a great example of OT literary exaggeration that might inform the NT literature style as well.
Edom
Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.
The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit today with a bypass to get around it. Compare verse ten below. (Revelation 14:11)
Isaiah 34:8-11
For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it;
the great owl and the raven will nest there.
God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.

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A caveat, there are 217 "Figures of speech used in the Bible" a book by that title was written in 1899 by E.W. Bullinger. That being so, one should not confuse the figurative use with the factual.

cancelled

hedrick said:

The dispute is whether it always refers to something that lasts forever, or whether things can happen in eternity that have an end. It's also clear that, whatever its etymology, aionios is also used for things of God that aren't literally eternal, such as the LXX of the temple's everlasting doors.

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Another interesting example is in Joh 13:8 where Peter says to the lord:

Joh 13:8 λέγει αὐτῷ Πέτρος οὐ μὴ νίψῃς μου τοὺς πόδας εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα

Then one minute later, he let Jesus wash his feet .

Der Alte said:

Even this quote says only a few, 8 persons were saved. What about the millions who drowned? Were they saved" The last line, "eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you."

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Thank you for keeping these discussions going. Without your opposition they would probably fade out quickly .

While still alive, only 8 people were saved through the water. You can call it a baptism, if you wish, as St Paul considered crossing the Red Sea a baptism (1Co 10:1-4). After they died, the spirits of the millions who drowned were saved from the spirit prison / Hades:

Luk 4:18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
because He has anointed Me
to preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the broken-hearted,
to preach deliverance to the captives
and recovery of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed;

Eph 4:8 Therefore He says:
“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
and gave gifts to men.”

1Pe 4:6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, so that even though they might be judged according to men in the flesh, they might live according to God in the spirit.

Der Alte said:

Interesting you should mention the rich man and Lazarus. It does not appear to teach UR.

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No, it doesn't. We are not told the fate of Rich. But one cannot fail to notice that the spirits in Hades were conscious, they retained their earthly memories, there was communication between the 2 sides of the chasm and that Rich was starting to show some signs of repentance.

Der Alte said:

Whether corpses or some kind of conscious existence the dead cannot work or hope.

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Most of your supporting quotations are from the OT. As a Christian, I believe in progressive revelation. The OT is extremely useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. But Christian theology is based on the Christian Scriptures. So, I will only comment on verses from the NT.

Der Alte said:

7) John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me. while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

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Looking at the whole context, the Lord said this as He healed a man who blind from birth. Could the Lord have healed him after his death and resurrection? Certainly, He still heals. He stated that his purpose was that God's works might be revealed. And the work of His church continues under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It is best to understand this as seeking the opportunity to glorify God, while that opportunity is available, while it is day:

Ecc 12:1 So remember your Creator
in the days of your youth:
before the days of misery come,
and years draw near when you will say:
“I have no pleasure in them”—

Der Alte said:

14) Hebrews 9:27
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

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Looking at the whole context, this sounds like a correction of teaching of Stoics who believed in reincarnation and that the world repeats itself in cycles according to which the Lord would have had to suffer and be crucified again and again in many ages. Actually, Scriptures talk about 2 deaths and 2 judgments. But this verse clearly talks about the 1st death after which there is the individual judgment. Nothing is said about the Last Judgment.

Der Alte said:

Whether corpses or some kind of conscious existence the dead cannot work or hope.
1)Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything neither have they any more a reward: for the memory of them is forgotten.
2) Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live: they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them and made all their memory to Perish.
3) Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
4) Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead rise and praise thee? Selah.
5)Psalms 88:11 Shall thy loving kindness be declared in the grave? thy faithfulness in destruction?
6)Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
7) John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me. while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
8) Psalms 30:9
What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?
9) Psalms 115:17
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
10) Psalms 88:5
5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
11) Proverbs 11:7
7 When a wicked man dieth, his expectation shall perish: and the hope of unjust men perisheth.
12) Proverbs 24:20 for the evildoer has no future hope and the lamp or the wicked will be snuffed out.
13) Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee:they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
14) Hebrews 9:27
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

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The thing about most of these verses is that they are basically applying death with the death of physical body and how we that are still living in our earthly bodies view them -the dead.

Solomon wrote Ecclesiastes to the man that walks under the sun, again earthly people. It's a wonderful book that we can apply on our to live our lives to the fullest and what really matters- concerning the fruits of our labor, much of life being full of vanity (emptiness, etc)

Throughout the book concerning the dead though he talks about how they have no reward, etc they basically have no more use, concerning, life on "earth". Even the memory of them fades which is so true concerning even within our own family trees. Who can name people in their family so many generations back? He's right- they start to fade. They have no more reward on this earth. Whatever they had belongs to someone else and so on.

Once we are done with these flesh bodies they have no more purpose. They return to dust but the spirit still goes back to God who gave it. It's that dust in the grave that can't think, praise, have reward, etc.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it


II Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Acts 7:59 "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.


A verse like this that you posted looks to the final judgement,

12) Proverbs 24:20 for the evildoer has no future hope and the lamp or the wicked will be snuffed out.

Which is ironic coming from you because you don't believe the wicked will be "snuffed out".

Pro 19:2 Zeal is useless when not accompanied by knowledge,
and acting hastily causes one to stumble.