New Jerusalem vs Babylon the Great

Zao is life · Jan 9, 2022

claninja said:
“ἱερόν is employed in the N. T. either explicitly of the whole temple,

Matthew 12:6
One greater than the temple complex, i.e "the church building" = Jesus, who referred to His own body as the naos

Jesus never left the naos in Matthew 24:1 . He was not allowed into the naos, because He was not a priest. Whenever Jesus is spoken about as being in the temple, the word hieron is used. Your argument has no bearing on the facts which I have shown repeatedly in this thread - it merely confirms what I have been saying.

The same goes for all the other verses you quote:

claninja said:
Mark 13:3; Luke 21:5; Luke 22:52; Acts 4:1; Acts 24:6; Acts 25:8; 1 Corinthians 9:13, etc”
(Strong's Greek: 2411. ἱερόν (hieron) -- temple.)

In the religious sense of the use of the words (i.e whenever the words are used in reference to the Tabernacle of God), naos refers to what is considered holy (consecrated, i.e set apart unto God), but hieron refers to the profane (what is not considered holy).

The outer courts and precincts of the temple in Jerusalem (the buildings and the structure) were not considered holy. Only the inner court (or “holy place”) and the most holy place (or “holy of holies”) were considered holy, always denoted by the word naos.

Every single Christian who honestly approaches the scriptures and who reads each and every verse listed in the two links to the lexicon pages I provided in numerous posts (which includes every single verse in scripture where both the words hieron and naos appear), will, unlike you, be able to see for themselves that due to the fact that:

(1) Naos is never again used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem following the verses talking about the tearing of the veil

The above FACT makes it obvious that:

(2) Before the verses talking about the tearing of the veil, hieron is talking about the temple buildings.

--------------------------------------------------------

Using the two Greek words in our modern Christian context, the church building = the hieron (it’s just a building), but the congregation of the saints who together make up the actual church (the actual sanctuary) = the naos. Take the saints who congregated in the building (the hieron) and let them congregate somewhere else (maybe they got a new church building somewhere), and the church building (hieron) that is still standing is still the hieron: The pulpit is still there, and the platform that the pulpit stands on is still there too, but the naos has left the premises.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

2 Peter 2:1. False theology taught by teachers who twist the scriptures knowingly after the truth has been shown them makes the teacher a false teacher (they don't have to all teach the same heresies or do the same things as those Peter is describing in 2 Peter 2).

Failure to recognize and refusal to accept the truth is an extremely dangerous game for Christians to play, because the coming of the man of sin will be "according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned." (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12).

If someone refuses to accept the very foundational premise of the faith of Christ, which is what both He and His apostles taught from the beginning, that the temple in Jerusalem no longer contained anything holy or was considered in any way consecrated to God after Christ died, then one wonders why some people fail to understand what all Christians understand and believe, then one has to wonder who such a person really believes in: His own imagination about what Christianity is all about that is not based on one of the foundational truths of Christianity? Or someone else's imagination?

Since Jesus died on the cross, no part of any physical building, be it a temple or a church, is considered the naos. Since the Day of Pentecost, the naos = the living stones who are those who belong to Christ.

@claninja Hieron is the physical structure in Jerusalem which housed the naos until Jesus died on the cross.

Hieron is the physical structure (the church building) inside which the naos now congregates.

The man of sin will seat himself up in the naos.

Zao is life · Jan 9, 2022

Douggg said:
You are wrong.

The naos was within the hieron.

The naos was the two roomed temple sanctuary building.

View attachment 310792

The church pulpit and the platform also exist with the church building (the hieron).

No big deal. The naos = the people who congregate in the church building. Take them to another place (maybe they get a new church) and the building that remains is still the hieron. But the naos has left the premises. Nothing inside the church's building will ever be called the naos again once the naos has left the premises. It will only be called hieron (the building, the old temple complex).

The pulpit and its platform that are still standing in the old building are not holy. They are not the church.

Douggg · Jan 9, 2022

In Revelation 11:1-2 John as told the measure the area of the naos, the brazen altar, and them worshiping within, the priests.

The perimeter in pink is what John measured. The temple to be built under the direction of the Antichrist will replicate the tent tabernacle complex of the Exodus.

Zao is life · Jan 9, 2022

Douggg said:
In Revelation 11:1-2 John as told the measure the area of the naos, the brazen altar, and them worshiping within, the priests.

The perimeter in pink is what John measured. The temple to be built under the direction of the Antichrist will replicate the tent tabernacle complex of the Exodus.

View attachment 310793

In the religious sense of the use of the words (i.e whenever the words are used in reference to the Tabernacle of God), naos refers to what is considered holy (consecrated, i.e set apart unto God), but hieron refers to the profane (what is not considered holy). The outer courts and precincts of the temple in Jerusalem (the buildings and the structure) were not considered holy. Only the inner court (or “holy place”) and the most holy place (or “holy of holies”) were considered holy, always denoted by the word naos.

Every single Christian who honestly approaches the scriptures and who reads each and every verse listed in the two links to the lexicon pages I provided in numerous posts (which includes every single verse in scripture where both the words hieron and naos appear), will, unlike you, be able to see for themselves that due to the fact that:

(1) Naos is never again used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem following the verses talking about the tearing of the veil; and

The above FACT makes it obvious that:

(2) Before the verses talking about the tearing of the veil, hieron is talking about the temple buildings.

--------------------------------------------------------

Using the two Greek words in our modern Christian context, the church building = the hieron (it’s just a building), but the congregation of the saints who together make up the actual church (the actual sanctuary) = the naos. Take the saints who congregated in the building (the hieron) and let them congregate somewhere else (maybe they got a new church building somewhere), and the church building (hieron) that is still standing is still the hieron: The pulpit is still there, and the platform that the pulpit stands on is still there too, but the naos has left the premises.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

2 Peter 2:1. False theology taught by teachers who twist the scriptures knowingly after the truth has been shown them makes the teacher a false teacher (they don't have to all teach the same heresies or do the same things as those Peter is describing in 2 Peter 2).

Failure to recognize and refusal to accept the truth is an extremely dangerous game for Christians to play, because the coming of the man of sin will be "according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned." (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12).

If someone refuses to accept the very foundational premise of the faith of Christ, which is what both He and His apostles taught from the beginning, that the temple in Jerusalem no longer contained anything holy or was considered in any way consecrated to God after Christ died, then one wonders why some people fail to understand what all Christians understand and believe, then one has to wonder who such a person really believes in. His own imagination about what Christianity is all about that is not based on one of the foundational truths of Christianity? Or someone else's imagination?

Douggg · Jan 9, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Only the inner court (or “holy place”) and the most holy place (or “holy of holies”) were considered holy, always denoted by the word naos.

You continue to give double talk.

The naos is the two roomed sanctuary building. The two rooms are (1) the holy place and (2) the Holy of Holies.

The naos does not contain the brazen altar, nor where the priests prepare the sacrifices.

The brazen altar and where the priests prepare the sacrifices is outside of the naos, in the inner (holy) court. Gentiles were not allowed into the holy court. Only the priests.

Zao is life · Jan 9, 2022

Christians,

Mind your manners when you're in church.

Mind your "teachers" even more. It's becoming more and more necessary.

Learn what's in the Bible, get to know it very well, so you can become excellent at spotting false teaching the moment it crops up.

The facts I've shown in this thread have been part of foundational Christian theology since the apostles taught it, after Jesus taught it.

I'm signing off on this thread now. I can't keep repeating myself saying the same things over and over when those who do not want to see the truth, argue against facts.

The link to my Blog where you will find this topic (where there is no one arguing against the facts you have been shown in the OP of this thread), is in my profile.

grafted branch · Jan 9, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I'm signing off on this thread now. I can't keep repeating myself saying the same things over and over when those who do not want to see the truth, argue against facts.

The link to my Blog where you will find this topic (where there is no one arguing against the facts you have been shown in the OP of this thread), is in my profile.

I see your view and whether I agree with it or not, I don’t want to keep bringing up the same issues.

You have both believers and unbelievers in the naos. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 has the son of perdition in the naos. Revelation 13:7 has the beast that overcomes the saints. I’m not sure but I think you are equating the saints with the naos.

I personally think the saints in Revelation 13:7 is referring to Israel, the entire group. “They are not all Israel, which are of Israel” shows that there are 2 groups of people that go by the name Israel. This makes sense to me by allowing only the unbelieving portion of the saints to be overcome.

In the past I have received rebuttal that the word “saints” can only be referring to actual believers. It has been pointed out to me that there are no instances in the New Testament where “saints” refers to both believers and unbelievers as a group.

Do you know of any such instances? If you don’t want to post anymore on his thread you can PM me.

Zao is life · Jan 9, 2022

grafted branch said:
You have both believers and unbelievers in the naos.

I have signed off, but because I obviously failed to make my position clear about the above, I'll answer you.

I have both faithful believers and unfaithful believers in the naos (I do not believe in OSAS), and the son of perdition being either one of the unfaithful servants/saints/believers, or symbolically referring to all of them. I strongly lean toward his being one man, because the other son of perdition, namely Judas Iscariot, was one man, but for a lack of other passages saying so explicitly, I don't want to start guessing. The point is he will seat himself up in the naos.

grafted branch said:
I personally think the saints in Revelation 13:7 is referring to Israel, the entire group. “They are not all Israel, which are of Israel” shows that there are 2 groups of people that go by the name Israel.

That part in red lies outside of the scope of the subject of this thread, and because I did sign off, I'd rather leave the subject in red alone now. If you go to my site and view "Israel of God" Part I and Part II, you'll see there what I believe.

@grafted branch What I mean is this: "unfaithful Christians in the naos" = the harlot, teaching and following false doctrines and practicing things in the church (naos) that God hates:

New Jerusalem is a city of gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 21:18-21).
The Harlot is decked with gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 17:4). She acts like she's very holy, and claims to be on fire for Christ, "filled with the Spirit".

When Revelation 17:16 comes upon the harlot, it comes upon the entire church. Every time God purged Israel in the past of its "dross" or its tares, the faithful suffered too (such as when Babylon destroyed Jerusalem and all went into captivity);

and Jesus has (i) rebuked and warned the harlot about this in Revelation 2:20-23; and (2) counseled the lukewarm in Revelation 3:18; and (3) commended the faithful in Revelation 2:8-11 and Revelation 3:7-13; and (4) exhorted all Christians in His closing statement to each one of the seven churches.

We see the immediate aftermath of it all in Revelation 7:13-17; and read about it erupting in Revelation 13:7; Revelation 13:15; and Revelation 17:16.

claninja · Jan 10, 2022

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Matthew 12:6
One greater than the temple complex, i.e "the church building" = Jesus, who referred to His own body as the naos

Jesus never left the naos in Matthew 24:1 . He was not allowed into the naos, because He was not a priest. Whenever Jesus is spoken about as being in the temple, the word hieron is used. Your argument has no bearing on the facts which I have shown repeatedly in this thread - it merely confirms what I have been saying.

The same goes for all the other verses you quote:

In the religious sense of the use of the words (i.e whenever the words are used in reference to the Tabernacle of God), naos refers to what is considered holy (consecrated, i.e set apart unto God), but hieron refers to the profane (what is not considered holy).

The outer courts and precincts of the temple in Jerusalem (the buildings and the structure) were not considered holy. Only the inner court (or “holy place”) and the most holy place (or “holy of holies”) were considered holy, always denoted by the word naos.

Every single Christian who honestly approaches the scriptures and who reads each and every verse listed in the two links to the lexicon pages I provided in numerous posts (which includes every single verse in scripture where both the words hieron and naos appear), will, unlike you, be able to see for themselves that due to the fact that:

(1) Naos is never again used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem following the verses talking about the tearing of the veil

The above FACT makes it obvious that:

(2) Before the verses talking about the tearing of the veil, hieron is talking about the temple buildings.

--------------------------------------------------------
Using the two Greek words in our modern Christian context, the church building = the hieron (it’s just a building), but the congregation of the saints who together make up the actual church (the actual sanctuary) = the naos. Take the saints who congregated in the building (the hieron) and let them congregate somewhere else (maybe they got a new church building somewhere), and the church building (hieron) that is still standing is still the hieron: The pulpit is still there, and the platform that the pulpit stands on is still there too, but the naos has left the premises.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Peter 2:1. False theology taught by teachers who twist the scriptures knowingly after the truth has been shown them makes the teacher a false teacher (they don't have to all teach the same heresies or do the same things as those Peter is describing in 2 Peter 2).

Failure to recognize and refusal to accept the truth is an extremely dangerous game for Christians to play, because the coming of the man of sin will be "according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned." (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12).

If someone refuses to accept the very foundational premise of the faith of Christ, which is what both He and His apostles taught from the beginning, that the temple in Jerusalem no longer contained anything holy or was considered in any way consecrated to God after Christ died, then one wonders why some people fail to understand what all Christians understand and believe, then one has to wonder who such a person really believes in: His own imagination about what Christianity is all about that is not based on one of the foundational truths of Christianity? Or someone else's imagination?

Since Jesus died on the cross, no part of any physical building, be it a temple or a church, is considered the naos. Since the Day of Pentecost, the naos = the living stones who are those who belong to Christ.

@claninja Hieron is the physical structure in Jerusalem which housed the naos until Jesus died on the cross.

Hieron is the physical structure (the church building) inside which the naos now congregates.

The man of sin will seat himself up in the naos.

this doesn’t address the fact that 3 Greek word studies disagree with you.

According to 3 different Greek word studies, “Hieron” can include the central sanctuary building when context dictates:

1.) strongs demonstrates that “Hieron” can refer to the WHOLE building.
“a temple, either the whole building, or specifically the outer courts, open to worshippers”- strongs
(Strong's Greek: 2411. ἱερόν (hieron) -- temple.)

2.) helps states the central sanctuary can be included in the definition of “Hieron”
“hierón (from 2413 /hierós, "sacred") – the entire Temple complex, i.e. all its enclosures (precincts, courtyards) and the central sanctuary.” - helps word studies
(Strong's Greek: 2411. ἱερόν (hieron) -- temple.)

3.) Thayers includes Matthew 24:1’s use of “Hieron” as the “whole temple” because the entire complex, central sanctuary building included, was destroyed.

“ἱερόν is employed in the N. T. either explicitly of the whole temple, Matthew 12:6; Matthew 24:1; Mark 13:3; Luke 21:5; Luke 22:52; Acts 4:1; Acts 24:6; Acts 25:8; 1 Corinthians 9:13, etc”
(Strong's Greek: 2411. ἱερόν (hieron) -- temple.)

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Whenever Jesus is spoken about as being in the temple, the word hieron is used.

When Jesus predicted the destruction of the “Hieron”, did it include the central sanctuary building or not?

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Since Jesus died on the cross, no part of any physical building, be it a temple or a church, is considered the naos. Since the Day of Pentecost, the naos = the living stones who are those who belong to Christ.

it’s clear you are not understanding my position because I have never disagreed with you here.

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New Jerusalem vs Babylon the Great

Zao is life

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Zao is life

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Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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Zao is life

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Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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Zao is life

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grafted branch

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Zao is life

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claninja

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