The Holiness and Righteousness of God
- Thread starter Presbyterian Continuist
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When you keep God’s laws you are showing love to God by keeping commandments 1-4 personally written by the finger of God. Not placing anything above God, not bowing to idols, keeping the Holy day of the Lord thy God and using His name in a sacred way. Exodus 20:3-11
When you keep the law of God on how we are to love each other we don’t steal, or lie, covet, or commit adultery, we honor our parents and certainly not commit murder. Exodus 20:12-17
Are you advocating we should do these things despite God writing His laws in our hearts and minds and telling us if we keep these things we are showing love to both God and our neighbor? The scripture you quoted does not delete God’s moral laws.
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fhansen
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That's all quite interesting. And, yes, I never experienced anything in my Pentecostal church, or witnessed anything I might consider to be spiritual- although there were many such claims. I think that I, rather innocently, knew too much already to be impressed by what sure seemed to be human-driven phenomena.
But as for "experiences", God, of course, can do whatever He wants including granting "private revelations" as they're sometimes called, to whomever He wishes for whatever His reasons at His discretion. I tend to doubt that one will receive them by seeking them; we should simply seek Him and His will always. For myself I didn't know that such things really existed and had a pretty much simple and straighforward faith, that I took seriously and acted on in a number of ways in my life. One day about three hours after what was probably the most sincere prayer I ever prayed, one that, itself, didn't seem to originate in my own mind, rushing past my brain, in fact, as I broke down and desparately pleaded for help for a person I loved who was lost in extreme darkness, God simply opened the doors to Himself and, yes, I "met" Him, apparently being given a "glimpse" of the vision we'll have in the next life where we meet Him "face to face", where we know Him directly IOW.
The sense of well-being, centered in unimagineably, infintely huge and powerful love, was engulfing, overwhelming, beyond words-vitually tactile-you knew those things simply by virtue of His presence. And the result was instant exaltation, peace beyond understanding and the absolute negation of pride. A series of experiences would follow all involving this person I had prayed for-another story that involved her healing. These experiences taught me a bunch about God and how He works and moves and uses us and our love to further His ends; it all taught me a bunch about love and its centrality in our faith. The last time I had anything of such profundity was over 30 years ago. But it was more than enough. Anyway, like I said, I already possessed a strong faith and never sought such experiences and still don't even though I certainly know God can grant them.
But I've also often felt that, yes, in addition to whatever other purposes He had I was a hardhead in many ways and God sort of needed to use a club to get me where He wanted me. Anyway, I like your description of an ongoing, steady, almost practical relationship of communication. That would seem to be the place He wants us all to be.
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- Mar 28, 2005
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In my early 20s, I had a much more awareness of the presence of God than I do now. I think it was because I was relatively immature and needed a strong sense of His presence to bolster my faith. I remember, in my early 30s going through a very difficult series of events in my life. I was living near a long beach at the time, so I went walking along by the shore and as I was praying, thoughts about the Cross and me being nailed to the Cross with Christ, then resurrected with Him to new life, then ascended to be at the right hand of God. Then, as I looked over the waves of the sea I saw clearly in my mind's eye, and I don't know it was a vision or not, Jesus on the throne of victory over the waves of the sea. Then He said, "You are here with me, in victory!" My reaction to that was me running down the beach shouting "Yahoo!" After that, the way opened for me to go to university and teacher training, with a whole new career and marriage opening up to me.
But these days, I don't have those times. It seems that everything has calmed right down, and that there is just the knowledge that God is there for me to fellowship with Him at any time. I think that my faith has developed into a stronger trust in His Word rather than what I sense. Actually a good book that made a lot of sense to me was Francis Shaeffer's book, "God is there, and He is not Silent." I get a lot of comfort knowing that God is really there, and at the age of 74, knowing that I have just a few years to go, I have no fears for the future.
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Christian7777777
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That is why we die to sin( pride) in Christ or we are not buried with Him in baptism, and risen with Christ in righteousness ( also always showing the dying of the Lord in our bodies ( that we are buried with Him in baptism and pride is dead)
Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
2 Corinthians 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
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Christian7777777
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It means being under the law of sin and death, which we are freed from by the law of life in Jesus Christ ( now walking in the Spirit no longer the flesh)
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
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Christian7777777
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You can do all the things of the law to not steal covet etc, but without charity it is all nothing, and to put on charity is to put on Christ ( perfection) and Christ layed His life down for us and had nowhere to lay His head.
Anyone can talk, we know the devil does through his many ministers whose end is according to works of pride, selfishness and keeping their lives, not laying them down.
Colossians 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
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Christian7777777
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The purpose of the talkers in this thread is easy to see, it is so they can again excuse themselves for not doing exactly as Jesus Christ did, and His Apostles following Him.
If they had a better purpose, they would go do all instead of finding ways to show their opinion why to not do it.
Jesus had nothing, nowhere to lay His heads, the Apostles all left all to follow Him, Apostle Paul had no certain dwelling place and followed in thew sufferings of Christ, these are the true examples.
Christ and the Apostles warned of wolves entering the flock, and those many deceivers here at the end, so let all be fulfilled, their speaking great swelling words of vanity.
If they had a better purpose, they would go do all instead of finding ways to show their opinion why to not do it.
Jesus had nothing, nowhere to lay His heads, the Apostles all left all to follow Him, Apostle Paul had no certain dwelling place and followed in thew sufferings of Christ, these are the true examples.
Christ and the Apostles warned of wolves entering the flock, and those many deceivers here at the end, so let all be fulfilled, their speaking great swelling words of vanity.
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I guess I have a different way of reading scripture. All scripture has to reconcile, while I agree with the scripture you presented, it does not delete the scripture you seem tp disagree with that Jesus tells us If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15 and that we can morally sin against Jesus by breaking His law 1 John 3:4, Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7, James 2:10-12 Everything Jesus taught was an example for us, which includes charity and includes keeping the commandments. The argument that we should only do some of what Jesus taught does not come from the Bible. God bless
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The Bible refers to people who are just hearers, which is we why are told to be DOERS of the Word. James 1:22, Be doers of the law Romans 2:13 and those who DO (keepers of the commandments) are BLESSED. Revelation 22:14
This idea that we do not have to obey God is not biblical. We do not obey to be saved, we obey because we love. John 14:15, John 15:10, 1 John 5:3, Exodus 20:8-11
Paul tells us what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19. So I would be careful for those who claim they are in Christ and walk with the Spirit but are still slaves to sin and not trying to gain victory over sin through Christ. Keeping the commandments of God is not burdensome 1 John 5:3 and Jesus will not leave us He gives us the Spirit so we can obey. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32. God bless
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Christian7777777
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All we see in Christ and the Apostles we do, what we do not see, we do not do. These are the commandments of the Lord, what anyone has to conjure up in their own ideas, is not at all.
Mark 10:28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
1 Corinthians 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
I know nobody can acknowledge the doing of these things, as they are not Spiritual.
1 Corinthians 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
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Christian7777777
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Doers of the word, which is the law of Christ.
Christ magnified the law, Christ is the law of kindness, the law of faith, the law of life, not the law of sin and death.
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So are you saying we are free to worship other gods, bow to idols, break the holy day of the Lord, vain His name, steal, lie , cheat? You keep quoting other scripture that does not say we are free to break the law of God, so I am having a hard time following you and what you disagree with so maybe you can clarify. Do you think Christian living is breaking the law of God and we no longer have the keep the commandments of God?
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Christian7777777
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The day of the Lord is salvation, that day is to be believed in, it is the day of sanctification which we could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
2 Corinthians 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
1 Thessalonians 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
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Christian7777777
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The law is gone.made honourable, magnified, changed.
Isaiah 42:21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
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Christian7777777
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Salvation was not found by anyone following the law of Moses, that was demonstrated to all of this world.
They fall from grace who still think they are justified by the law.
We are not debtors to do the whole law ( or any part of it) we are set free from it, as it is the law of sin and death. ( as it is without faith)
Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
They fall from grace who still think they are justified by the law.
We are not debtors to do the whole law ( or any part of it) we are set free from it, as it is the law of sin and death. ( as it is without faith)
Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
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fhansen
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The old could not fulfill the law, while the new can. That’s why the old is obsolete. The old was man attempting to be righteous on his own, under the law, apart from God, while the new is man under grace, in union with God, whereupon He makes us righteous, putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts.
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