Where was Yahshua for the Three Days Before He was Risen?

Mr. M

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Why would you assume that the angels carried Lazarus "far off" to Hades?
The questionable assumption is that all the heart of the earth is a place of torment.
All who die return to the earth until the resurrection.

1 Kings 2:
1
Now the days of David drew near that he should die, and he charged Solomon his son, saying:
2 I go the way of all the earth; be strong, therefore, and prove yourself a man.

How did this conversation take place, if Abraham's bosom is not found in the heart of the earth?
If the term Hades is reserved for the place of torment, that's fine, but Lazarus still had to be
interned in the heart of the earth until the resurrection. Or do you think that the rich ruler
was seeing into some heavenly place? Interesting. That would be torment enough if the dead
in Hades could see Heaven.
 
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HARK!

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The fascinating and ignored doctrine in Christology. His spirit's descent to the Underworld/Sheol/Hades; Gehenna; Paradise; Tartarus; Abyss, while his body was in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea.

Not conflicting as his spirit left his body. The heart of the earth is not paradise.

(CLV) Jb 34:14
If He places it in His heart concerning him, He can gather back His spirit (ruach) and His breath (neshama) to Himself;

(CLV) Jb 34:15
All flesh would breathe its last together, And humanity would return onto the soil.

(CLV) Num 16:33
So they descended, they and all who belonged to them, alive to the unseen (sheol); and the earth covered over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.

(CLV) Ec 12:7
And the soil returns onto the earth just as it was, And the spirit (ruach), it returns to the One, Elohim, Who gave it.
 
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Greengardener

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Is it necessary that this verse read that the thief was today with Jesus in paradise, or was it sufficient that Jesus told him today that (at some point) the thief would be with Him in paradise? Does the sentence structure and word definitions make this more solid? I can think of Scriptures that point to death as a sleep for now, and once awakened in the resurrection that person would be facing an accounting for the deeds done in the body. I don't think that negates that Jesus led (or at some point would have already led) captivity captive or preached to the souls in prison. I'm asking because I frankly don't know. Not being dead yet, it hasn't yet been a priority to me.
 
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HARK!

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The questionable assumption is that all the heart of the earth is a place of torment.
All who die return to the earth until the resurrection.

1 Kings 2:
1
Now the days of David drew near that he should die, and he charged Solomon his son, saying:
2 I go the way of all the earth; be strong, therefore, and prove yourself a man.

How did this conversation take place, if Abraham's bosom is not found in the heart of the earth?
If the term Hades is reserved for the place of torment, that's fine, but Lazarus still had to be
interned in the heart of the earth until the resurrection. Or do you think that the rich ruler
was seeing into some heavenly place? Interesting. That would be torment enough if the dead
in Hades could see Heaven.

If the Ruach returns to YHWH, and the dust returns to dust; is Abraham's bosom with YHWH, or with the dust?

Could it be that there is too much being emphasized on the physical rather than the spiritual? Are these two conscious right now; or are they asleep? Is the dust in the earth conscious?

I'm not so sure that this verse means exactly what you might think that it means.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Will not all face final judgement? Were the doors swung open before that day; or has that day already come and gone? Where does the second death fit in?

The Icon of the Anastasis displays Christ standing over the battered and broken gates of Hades, with the Lord pulling Adam and Eve by their wrists out of their sarcophagi, and on both sides to Christ's left and right are the Old Testament saints.

The imagery points to the Harrowing of Hell.

The oft-repeated understanding throughout history largely looks to this as the freeing of the Old Testament saints; they are freed by Christ and they are with Him now as He lives and reigns at the right hand of the Father--even as we too shall between death and the future resurrection of the body.

Judgment won't come until the Last Day, when Christ returns and all the dead are raised. But the devil is already defeated and bound, which is why he rages even though his doom is certain. The binding and defeat of the devil means the devil's power is broken. The chains of slavery have been broken. In Christ is salvation and freedom from death and the devil. The raging of the devil doesn't precede his defeat, but follows his defeat--it is in his hopeless rage that he schemes his schemes and plots our downfall. But in Christ we are, as the Apostle says, more than conquerors. Greater is He who is in us than he that is in the world. The devil rages BECAUSE he has but "a small season" (Revelation 20:3), as his doom is already certain and sure, it is written, it's in the books, the Victory of the Messiah is already accomplished: Christos Anesti!.

The New Testament brings together Christ's death, His resurrection, His ascension, His coming again as part of a whole.

The Christ came in order to lay down His life for the world, that through Him salvation would come; by His resurrection He has conquered the world, conquered the devil, conquered sin, death, and hell itself. Having ascended He has taken up His Throne as King Messiah having been given all power, dominion, and everlasting kingdom. Christ reigns and rules even now, through His Church, through the power of the Gospel through which God's kingdom continues to break into the world: there is freedom and redemption and salvation as God reconciles and redeems and brings us into His Household of grace, His Church. And when our Lord comes again, in glory, He comes as Judge, and the dead shall be raised. After all is accomplished, when the last enemy (death) is defeated, He shall hand all things over to the Father, God will make all things new and shall be all in all.

This is described often as "Now and Not Yet", we are living in the last days--which have been the last days since the Lord's first coming and will continue to be those last days until He comes again and makes all things new. This present age and world order is perishing, it has an expiration date (we just don't know when). We are living the time of the conclusion of this sinful and fallen age; in this way yes Judgment has already come, as Jesus says, "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil." (John 3:19). The reality of Judgment is not merely a future thing that happens at the consummation of this age, it's the reality of God's Law which condemns all men in their sin. Thus Jesus says He did not come to condemn, but condemnation was already present, there is already a judgment against the world. And, in truth, we see that judgment in Christ's crucifixion: The judgment against sin is applied to Him, the Guiltless and Sinless Victim, the very Spotless Lamb of God.

Apart from Him the condemnation remains, the judgment against us that we are sinners stands against us--in the Law. The Law that was meant to bring life instead brings forth death on account of sin. The commandment that should free me to love instead condemns me because I do not love.

When we contemplate the Last Day, the Day of Final Judgment, the reality of our sin should make us tremble--for we know the Law and the Law's condemnation against us because of our sin. But the Gospel, the Apostle says, means that "whoever puts their trust in Him shall never be put to shame" (Romans 10:11), and therefore, "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord" both Jew and Gentile, salve and free, great and small, male, female, barbarian, Scythian, everyone who looks and calls upon Christ "shall be saved". He ignores none, He abandons none, He wills that all should be saved, that all find repentance, that all should live; as He said to us through the Prophet Ezekiel, "Do I delight in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, Do I not rather that he repent and live?"

For we serve the God of the living, not of the dead.
The God who made heaven and earth and all things therein.
The God who declared all creation good.
The God of life, not death, who makes life, not death.
The God who will, even though death has become the plague and tyrant over and against His creation, put an end to death forever and shall bring all creation into the fullness of life with Himself forever. He will be all in all.

Judgment and condemnation is simply what it looks like for us to be naked in our sin exposed as such by the frank honesty of God's commandments. We are constantly under the shame of our nakedness in the garden--a shame because of sin, the nakedness not of the body but of our guilty conscience.

Salvation means that even through Judgment God keeps us and holds us. We are not perishing with the perishable, but will be raised up and be made imperishable. The perishable must be made imperishable, the mortal must put on immortality. And God is going to take the perishable and make it imperishable. Christ is risen from the dead, the first-fruits of the resurrection; and at His coming all that are His shall be likewise raised up, transformed "in the twinkling of an eye" "at the last trumpet", the Lord descends with a shout and the shofar blast of the archangel. The dead in Christ shall rise, and we who are alive then will likewise join them as we are brought up before the returning Lord at His Parousia. He shall judge all, the quick and the dead. He will open the books, but in the end He is the Book that matters. For it is not in the books of our broken works that shall keep us, but rather in the Lamb's Book of Life, all whose names are written in Christ.

In Christ death is defeated and we have the assurance of salvation in Him alone.
Outside of Christ we continue to collude with our own death, and the end of that results in our sharing the same fate as this perishing age. What St. John in his Apocalypse poetically describes as a "lake of fire and sulfur" (sulfur being regarded as a divine purification agent in Antiquity, sulfur indicates burning and purifying), and calls "the second death". We often describe this final and ultimate fate of the wicked by the word "Hell". Though "Hell" is used in other ways as well, such as referring to Hades/She'ol on the whole, and also referring to Gehenna specifically.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Blade

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So, where would the thief have gone, if he had still repented, and believed in Yah's salvation, as foretold in the TaNaK; if Yahshua had not yet come in the flesh?

The word says anyone that calls on the name of the lord shall be saved/delivered NT OT. The thief did what Christ was saying for 33 years. Believe on me . "He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me." It is just as Christ said, today you will be with me in paradise. And He also "When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men.’ But this, ‘He ascended’ —didn't he also first descend into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things"

Thats what Jesus did and went.
 
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Mr. M

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If the Ruach returns to YHWH, and the dust returns to dust; is Abraham's bosom with YHWH, or with the dust?

Could it be that there is too much being emphasized on the physical rather than the spiritual? Are these two conscious right now; or are they asleep? Is the dust in the earth conscious?

I'm not so sure that this verse means exactly what you might think that it means.
Using scriptures might help. The spirit may return to the Lord, but does it bear
our identity?
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee:
in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
 
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HARK!

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Using scriptures might help. The spirit may return to the Lord, but does it bear
our identity?
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee:
in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Good question. I had gone there yet; but I was working up to it.
 
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disciple Clint

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This question has been crossing my mind for weeks; and I just saw this same question asked in a Denominational Specific Forum. The answers that I saw there still left me with the same question.

Here are the verses that prompted the question:

(CLV) Mt 12:40
For even as Jonah was in the bowel of the sea monster three days and three nights, thus will the Son of Mankind be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

(CLV) Lk 23:43
And Jesus said to him, "Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise."

Now here is a rhetorical question: Is the heart of the earth paradise?

So what did Yahshua mean by these two statements, which on the surface, would seem to be conflicting?
I have another question for you to ponder. Is Jesus saying Today as in you will be with me this very day. Or is Jesus saying Today, I am telling you... meaning that He is making the statement today and that the action itself with be at some future time.
 
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grasping the after wind

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(CLV) Lk 23:43
And Jesus said to him, "Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise."

How do you suppose that it was fulfilled?

Not a biblical scholar but I do know a bit about how English is written. Your quote would suggest that Jesus was telling the thief not that the thief would be with Him in paradise today but that he would be with Jesus in paradise and Jesus was was telling him this today. If the punctuation is correct (which it may or may not be according to some sources), then it would be akin to Jeus saying "I'm telling you right now that you will be in paradise with me.". That wouldn't tell the thief when this would a occur.

If we assume that the punctuation is flawed, and Jesus was telling the thief he would be in paradise with Him this very day one might simply assume that, seeing as God is not time bound, the thief would experience an immediate communion with Jesus in paradise for him what would seem like that very day. Even though in the 1st century AD, within our limited time frame, for three days Jesus was not with that thief in paradise but in the heart of the earth.
 
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Mr. M

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Good question. I had gone there yet; but I was working up to it.
Trying to work through zakar, zeker, and zikaron is murky waters thanks to vast inconsistencies
in translation. I suggest beginning here:

Exodus 17:14 Then the Lord said to Moses, Write this a memorial in the book and recount
in the hearing of Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.
zeker and zikaron are both uniquely used in one verse. The inconsistencies begin from there...
I have been inquiring of the Lord on these matters for 3 years now, and written
many articles on the subject in my blog "The Remembrancer". As to the question proposed in
your OP, my contention remains "the heart of the earth", regardless of how vague or uncertain
that may be. He preached to the souls interned there. I don't see any human existence outside
of this realm beyond special exceptions based on scripture, such as Enoch and Elijah.

1 Corinthians 15:
53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
"Then", to my understanding, is post resurrection, based on the context.
1 John 3:
2
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be,
but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
Let us be diligent in pursuing this purity of heart that we may be found in Him...
2 Peter 3:14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found
by Him in peace, without spot and blameless.
Many people don't like talk of holiness and "without blemish" (Noah, Abraham), but there it is...
2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves
from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
 
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HARK!

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Not a biblical scholar but I do know a bit about how English is written. Your quote would suggest that Jesus was telling the thief not that the thief would be with Him in paradise today but that he would be with Jesus in paradise and Jesus was was telling him this today. If the punctuation is correct (which it may or may not be according to some sources), then it would be akin to Jeus saying "I'm telling you right now that you will be in paradise with me.". That wouldn't tell the thief when this would a occur.

If we assume that the punctuation is flawed, and Jesus was telling the thief he would be in paradise with Him this very day one might simply assume that, seeing as God is not time bound, the thief would experience an immediate communion with Jesus in paradise for him what would seem like that very day. Even though in the 1st century AD, within our limited time frame, for three days Jesus was not with that thief in paradise but in the heart of the earth.

Well I'm no Greek scholar; but it is my understanding that there is no punctuation in Ancient Greek. If this is true; then I would suspect that it was added through bias.

That said, I don't understand why Yahshua would have to explain to the thief on which day he was telling him this. I have seen no evidence that they met before this day; so I don't believe that either of them were confused as to which day it was.

We might just chalk this up as an expression of speech, like "I'll tell you what;" but I don't see Yahshua, nor anyone else, using this expression anywhere else in scripture.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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This doesn't answer where he would have gone before Yahshua had come in the flesh.

How does the veil being rent affect YHWH's standard of where we go when we die? Certainly you aren't suggesting that YHWH has a double standard?
The tearing of the veil was a sign that temple sacrifice was finished and fulfilled through Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The Kingdom of God was open to any and all belivers. Though most likely replaced, it had no meaning. This is important because if the theif died before Christ, Paradise(aka The Kingdom of God)would not have been open yet.
 
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HARK!

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The tearing of the veil was a sign that temple sacrifice was finished and fulfilled through Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The Kingdom of God was open to any and all belivers. Though most likely replaced, it had no meaning. This is important because if the theif died before Christ, Paradise(aka The Kingdom of God)would not have been open yet.

Are you suggesting that now when one dies, that he goes directly to the Kingdom to come? If so will Moses be there; or does he have to wait?

If this is what you are saying; can you prove it with scripture?

As a side note, the Temple sacrifices continued long after the veil was rent, as demonstrated by Paul, under the orders of James; and there will be sacrifices in the Kingdom to come.
 
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HARK!

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23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and
Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that
he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’



(CLV) Re 20:14
And death and the unseen (Hades) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire.

So does this take place before or after Sheol is cast into the lake of fire?

Are Abraham and Lazarus in the lake of fire too, far off, with water?
 
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Mr. M

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Are Abraham and Lazarus in the lake of fire too, far off, with water?
Not if we stick to the narrative...
Luke 16:
24
“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and
send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue;
for I am tormented in this flame.’
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those
who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

there is a great gulf fixed,>implies distance, not a totally different realm. They could
see one another from afar, even speaking.
You keep trying to put words in my mouth. I NEVER said Abraham was in Hades, I said he and
Lazarus were in the "heart of the earth". Your questioning responses suggest otherwise.
 
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Mr. M

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thus will the Son of Mankind be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.
"Abraham's bosom"-a place of comfort in the heart of the earth.
The rich ruler was in Hades, yet he saw and spoke to Abraham.
Where in any of this does it say that Abraham's Bosom, is in the heart of the earth?
"Abraham's bosom"-a place of comfort in the heart of the earth.
Luke 16:
22
So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom.
The rich man also died and was buried.

23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and
Lazarus in his bosom.
 
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This question has been crossing my mind for weeks; and I just saw this same question asked in a Denominational Specific Forum. The answers that I saw there still left me with the same question.

Here are the verses that prompted the question:

(CLV) Mt 12:40
For even as Jonah was in the bowel of the sea monster three days and three nights, thus will the Son of Mankind be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

(CLV) Lk 23:43
And Jesus said to him, "Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise."

Now here is a rhetorical question: Is the heart of the earth paradise?

So what did Yahshua mean by these two statements, which on the surface, would seem to be conflicting?
Where was Jesus? He was dead. In the tomb. That is the heart of the earth. Remember, God had said, when he created man, for dust you are and to dust you shall return.

Furthermore, if he was not dead then he could not have risen from the dead. So for people to claim that he was roaming around here there and everywhere in spirit form, whether preaching in hell or some other odd theory, they would have to literally deny that Jesus rose from the dead because if he was alive in spirit form during those three days, then he was alive and was never dead and therefore could not have risen from the dead.

So I'll say it again; he was dead.
 
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